GS450H Discussion

[sfk]

Mechanical oil pump will not generate any pressure while vehicle is stationary. That's why the transmission has a secondary electric pump.

Without oil pressure the clutch packs will disengage at stop lights.

[konstantin8818]

Mechanical oil pump will not generate any pressure while vehicle is stationary. That's why the transmission has a secondary electric pump.

Without oil pressure the clutch packs will disengage at stop lights.

My gearbox equipped with electric pump. But I don't think it is designed to work constantly. In stock car most of the time works mechanical pump. So my thought is to activate electric pump when gear lever moved from P, and then, when car start moving it disengages by MG1 RPM, because if planetary carriege is welded, mechanical pump is now locked with output shaft and MG1. Or by pressure build up. And when car stops, electric pump engages again, and disengages when gear lever is moved into P.

Also I've got a question: Is PWM signal generator HW-753 any good for activating oil pump?

[celeron55]

It might be fine for the clutch to engage only when the shaft starts to spin, as long as you set a long enough throttle ramp-up time. What about the gearbox solenoids, are they designed to be powered without cooling by fluid flow? Just to be sure I'd deactivate them when the car is stationary if there's no electric oil pump. These are just guesses of course. The good thing is, a replacement GS450H transmission isn't that expensive if someone destroys one for science.

[konstantin8818]

It might be fine for the clutch to engage only when the shaft starts to spin, as long as you set a long enough throttle ramp-up time. What about the gearbox solenoids, are they designed to be powered without cooling by fluid flow? Just to be sure I'd deactivate them when the car is stationary if there's no electric oil pump. These are just guesses of course. The good thing is, a replacement GS450H transmission isn't that expensive if someone destroys one for science.

My guess is If my car will perform good only at low or at high range, I can produce solid rings that will replace clatch plates. Gearbox will stuck at one range but there will be no need for oil pressure while stationary, so there will be no need in electric oil pump.

[xp677]

The gearbox is oil cooled, and has an oil-water heat exchanger on the left side. Without the pump, cooling performance will likely suffer.

An alternative would be to lock the power-split device, and allow the input shaft to rotate by MG1 - providing the direction is correct (and I don't think it will be), the mechanical pump can be used.

[konstantin8818]

The gearbox is oil cooled, and has an oil-water heat exchanger on the left side. Without the pump, cooling performance will likely suffer.

An alternative would be to lock the power-split device, and allow the input shaft to rotate by MG1 - providing the direction is correct (and I don't think it will be), the mechanical pump can be used.

If you read my previous posts, that is actually my idea to weld planetary carrier so MG1 will be locked with mechanical oil pump wich is designed to work constantly, unlike electric pump. And if clutches and solenoids of range selector will suffer from it, basically to replace clutch on one of ranges(high probably) with solid toothed ring, that will permanently lock up range selector.

[arturk]

Did anyone welded planetary carrier? Asking becase for me it looks like a good idea, so mechanical oil pump will work and no need for complex and expensive electric oil pump. My only concern is about MG1 and MG2 RPM and direction of rotation.

I have been planning to do this for a while now but have not had a chance to do it yet, perhaps this coming winter.

Not only it will reduce wear on expensive electric pump but wear and tear on unnecessarily spinning planetary gearing slightly improving efficiency of the system and substantially reducing noises.

I would also be interested to hear if anyone did this already. Damien welded numerous Prius systems successfully, I am assuming process would be similar. How difficult it is to welded it ensuring proper alignment?

[konstantin8818]

I implemented cheap universal PWM signal generator HW-753 to drive electric oil pump. Tested at 1kHz and 50% duty. It works. =)
Good thing is that it can handle from 5 to 30 volts and can be adjusted on the go. Bought it at local market for 3 EURO.

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

What about putting code into the VCU to only run the mechanical pump over a stated RPM? Or would it have to be based on oil pressure to really be effective?

[konstantin8818]

What about putting code into the VCU to only run the mechanical pump over a stated RPM? Or would it have to be based on oil pressure to really be effective?

How you're going to determine work of mechanical pump? It either spins proportional with MG1 if carrier is welded or it stays still if input shaft is locked.
My intention is this:
Weld the carrier. Put control of electric pump to gear selector and RPM or speed counter in VCU.
As soon as lever goes from "Park", electric oil pump starts and primes range selector. No matter what gear selected, electric pump works.
As soon as car exceeds certain speed, VCU disengages electric pump. Mechanical pump will work at speeds closest to ones it was designed.
When car slows down, VCU activates electric pump. And it stays active untill car speeds up again or gear selector is set into "Park".
The only concern is to make a switch, operated by VCU based on the speed or RPM. Or to make separate board with speed sensor.

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

What about putting code into the VCU to only run the mechanical pump over a stated RPM? Or would it have to be based on oil pressure to really be effective?

How you're going to determine work of mechanical pump? It either spins proportional with MG1 if carrier is welded or it stays still if input shaft is locked.
My intention is this:
Weld the carrier. Put control of electric pump to gear selector and RPM or speed counter in VCU.
As soon as lever goes from "Park", electric oil pump starts and primes range selector. No matter what gear selected, electric pump works.
As soon as car exceeds certain speed, VCU disengages electric pump. Mechanical pump will work at speeds closest to ones it was designed.
When car slows down, VCU activates electric pump. And it stays active untill car speeds up again or gear selector is set into "Park".
The only concern is to make a switch, operated by VCU based on the speed or RPM. Or to make separate board with speed sensor.

Sorry, I meant the electrical pump. What you're describing is essentially what I was thinking. There is a VSS on the L110 with 15 teeth if that helps your plans. I'm using that signal with a converter box to run my mechanical speedometer/odometer. Do you have an idea of what RPM at which you'll cut the power to the electrical pump? I suppose you could map the PWM signal to alter speed of pump over an RPM range as well.

[konstantin8818]

There is a VSS on the L110 with 15 teeth if that helps your plans. I'm using that signal with a converter box to run my mechanical speedometer/odometer. Do you have an idea of what RPM at which you'll cut the power to the electrical pump? I suppose you could map the PWM signal to alter speed of pump over an RPM range as well.

From which pin of which connector speed signal goes?
According to Damien's video from 2016, oil pressure rizes at pretty low RPM to 100psi and stays there no metter the RPMs.
Honestly, it rizes so fast I believe there will be no problems with clutches even without electric pump involved.
Also when in reverse, how much of a disaster will be if mechanical pump will rotate backwards? That seems to be the main problem with mechanical pump. Is oil pump's sprocket solid with shaft of it has one way hub?


I wonder what type of signal needed for solenoids to operate, I mean if there a PWM signal, or maybe an economiser is needed to operate them properly.

[xp677]

All of the solenoids should be on PWM outputs, so one can program their own economiser? Or were they not put on PWM capable outputs in the VCU?

[konstantin8818]

All of the solenoids should be on PWM outputs, so one can program their own economiser? Or were they not put on PWM capable outputs in the VCU?

Unfortunately, I don't know if solenoids need economizers or PWM signal. Anyway my intention now is to get rid of all hydraulics and only left mechanical pump for bearings lubrication and better cooling. I want to replace high range clutch with two-way solid toothed ring.
Today I disassembled my gearbox and welded carrier. When I turned oil pump both ways by hand it rotates freely. Only when it rotates backwards it makes woop-woop sound I believe in that rare and short periods of driving in reverce, pump and bearings will not suffer, and with solid ring I don't need all that pressure to be present for movement.

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

There is a VSS on the L110 with 15 teeth if that helps your plans. I'm using that signal with a converter box to run my mechanical speedometer/odometer. Do you have an idea of what RPM at which you'll cut the power to the electrical pump? I suppose you could map the PWM signal to alter speed of pump over an RPM range as well.

From which pin of which connector speed signal goes?
According to Damien's video from 2016, oil pressure rizes at pretty low RPM to 100psi and stays there no metter the RPMs.
Honestly, it rizes so fast I believe there will be no problems with clutches even without electric pump involved.
Also when in reverse, how much of a disaster will be if mechanical pump will rotate backwards? That seems to be the main problem with mechanical pump. Is oil pump's sprocket solid with shaft of it has one way hub?

I wonder what type of signal needed for solenoids to operate, I mean if there a PWM signal, or maybe an economiser is needed to operate them properly.

The VSS is the rear most connector on the left side of the transmission, see pic. It's the black sensor with the bright white connector in this photo:

Here's a link to the two wire connector:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173489472416?e ... %3A2334524

[konstantin8818]

The VSS is the rear most connector on the left side of the transmission, see pic. It's the black sensor with the bright white connector in this photo:

Yes, I've noticed it today. Unfortunately my harness missing that particular connector for some reason. I guess I'll find something to replace it. Thank you for the link.
Or I'll use original E36 signal from the differential.

[Bryson]

The VCU knows motor speed and gear position, it doesn’t need the external speed signal to know how fast everything is turning..

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

The VCU knows motor speed and gear position, it doesn’t need the external speed signal to know how fast everything is turning..

Right, I'm only using it for my speedometer converter box. Speaking of motor speed... has anyone thought about implementing Cruise Control? I do really like using CC even in the city sometimes. I'm thinking you could use brake in and Throt 2 to engage/disengage but not sure what the code would look like. I'm sending MPH in place of oil pump speed on Serial2. I don't know how to capture the value of MPH or mg2_speed at a particular moment in time and then use that to command torque. Curious if anyone else has noodled on this.

[konstantin8818]

Continuing torturing the transmission.
I disassmbled that two-step planetary thing with hard to pronounce name, and took measurements of clutch discs of high range. I will not place a dxf drawing here yet. First I need to make sure that measurements are taken correctly.
Clutch pack thickness is 32mm, so I'll make three 10mm steel rings, to replace the pack.

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

The VCU knows motor speed and gear position, it doesn’t need the external speed signal to know how fast everything is turning..

Right, I'm only using it for my speedometer converter box. Speaking of motor speed... has anyone thought about implementing Cruise Control? I do really like using CC even in the city sometimes. I'm thinking you could use brake in and Throt 2 to engage/disengage but not sure what the code would look like. I'm sending MPH in place of oil pump speed on Serial2. I don't know how to capture the value of MPH or mg2_speed at a particular moment in time and then use that to command torque. Curious if anyone else has noodled on this.

So, very rudimentary cruise control is working.

Video:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CUdixgLACK ... =copy_link

[Bryson]

Awesome! Which pin did you use for input?

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

Awesome! Which pin did you use for input?

Brake_In. It’s very basic right now and is only holding a set ThrotVal when engaged.

Update: I’m able to engage (on long press) and disengage (on short press) cruise control and I’m able to manually accelerate while cruise is engaged and then rest back at cruise. I’m also able to rengage at a higher speed. When engaging, I’m setting a cruise set speed (MPH), a set value for ThrotVal (torque), and a set value for the analog read of Throt1Pin.

I’m struggling to get good results with adjusting torque based on speed, which is what I would need in the real world. Assuming I can get that sorted, I’ll move the trigger to Throt2Pin and use Brake_In for brake pedal input so I can write code to disengage cruise on braking. I know Zombieverter has more in/outputs, but it would be great if this VCU had one or two more of each.

[Gregski]

can I ask where in Cali are you, I am in Sacramento and I just bought my GS450H and could use some help/advice

[xp677]

I programmed a rudimentary cruise control which just compares current speed to target speed, determines a suitable pedal position, and sets that position if the actual pedal position is lower. No idea if it works, also would need proportional control.

[PatrcioEV-ATX]

I programmed a rudimentary cruise control which just compares current speed to target speed, determines a suitable pedal position, and sets that position if the actual pedal position is lower. No idea if it works, also would need proportional control.

Ha! Cruise would be a bit scary to test in the real world. I’m still on the bench waiting for the body shop to finish my car!