Starting a project. Help choosing a motor path....

[Jacobsmess]

So,
I am going to convert my mercedes 310D brick shaped campervan to an EV.
Currently I'm looking at using an IS300H CVT and removing the gearbox and engine. Along with Zombieverter, 32 I-Pace modules.... Not sure on anything else yet but will likely go with tried and tested (and affordable options) as I'm not too clued up on hacking electronics.

However, a few concerns I'm having...
1. Top speed - needs to be 80mph minimum, as I understand the IS300H CVT outputs around 4280rpm.... Through a diff of 4.1 and wheels of 2.22m circumference I get 86mph, I hope I've done my maths correctly....
2. Torque - I'm confident this should be ok but given I'm ditching the gearbox I will likely be down on torque at low rpm, I often drive in the mountains, will the IS300H have enough torque to get me to the top of steep inclines?

Other options are obviously the GS450H but this is a fair whack heavier and needs the oil pump but given the same parameters should give a top wheel spin speed of 133mph OR a leaf EM57 which apparently would spin the wheels at 200mph and give a touch more torque if coupled direct to the prop shaft....

The lexus drivetrains are assuming using MG2 only, MG1 would obviously add to the torque, but limits the top speed.

Lastly, I could couple the leaf to the existing gearbox which would give gobs of low rpm torque but it's a lot of extra weight and certainly not as neat as just a CVT or the direct drive leaf.

Really lastly, are there any cheapish motors I could put in place of the differential? This would obviously be the lightest and neatest solution but not sure what options exist if any outside of Tesla units which are expensive or mitsubishi units which aren't powerful enough from what I've seen....

Anyone have input of guidance?
Thanks.

[Bratitude]

Through a diff of 4.1 and wheels of 2.22m circumference

2.22 meters? your math seams wrong...

leaf EM57 which apparently would spin the wheels at 200mph and give a touch more torque if couple direct to the prop shaft

again math seems wrong here. a leaf motor directly connected to the 4.1 diff isnt going to provide enough torque given your massive wheels

[Jacobsmess]

2.22 meters? your math seams wrong...


again math seems wrong here. a leaf motor directly connected to the 4.1 diff isnt going to provide enough torque given your massive wheels

2.22m circumference is right according to tyre circumference calcs....
Rim diameter is 16" width 215mm and 70 height profile.

I'm just going off the EM57 RPM of 10500,
Is it not....
((RPM/diff ratio)*wheel circumference*60)/1609

[Bratitude]

Really lastly, are there any cheapish motors I could put in place of the differential? This would obviously be the lightest and neatest solution but not sure what options exist if any outside of Tesla units which are expensive or mitsubishi units which aren't powerful enough from what I've seen....

im assuming the van is a solid axle rear, which will require a de dion axle or to convert the rear to IRS. the leaf motor and gearbox are a option.

[Jacobsmess]

im assuming the van is a solid axle rear, which will require a de dion axle or to convert the rear to IRS. the leaf motor and gearbox are a option.

Yes a solid axle with leaf spring suspension....
So the CVT or leaf approach seems the best option.
The current engine is 100hp and 192nm, so a leaf motor or lexus CVT should be able to move the van... It's whether it will be ok at low rpm and steep inclines I guess. Tbh, this is making me think it's a non starter given the wheel torque from the CVT or leaf would be around 1300nm...
The current engine in first gear should be putting out just below 4000nm.... Assuming all torque is output to the wheels and not also used for turning auxiliaries.

[Jacobsmess]

2.22 meters? your math seams wrong...


again math seems wrong here. a leaf motor directly connected to the 4.1 diff isnt going to provide enough torque given your massive wheels

Having a little look and the Maxus Edeliver 9 has a similar torque output from a 150kW motor. The lexus CVT is 110kw just from MG2, MG1 probably adds another 50kW at least and the leaf certainly can get to 160kW and all provide around 300nm of torque so the motors should be powerful enough to shift the van. I mainly need to ensure power off the starting line, which the GS450H might provide best due to its 2 stage gearbox.

Problem there is it's heavier, longer and needs an expensive and prone to failure oil pump. There is also the GS600H CVT that has 4 speed output but they're very new and as such rare.

[m.art.y]

The lexus CVT is 110kw just from MG2, MG1 probably adds another 50kW at least and the leaf certainly can get to 160kW and all provide around 300nm of torque so the motors should be powerful enough to shift the van. I mainly need to ensure power off the starting line, which the GS450H might provide best two to its 2 stage gearbox.

Why are you ruling out Leaf motor coupled to your existing gearbox? You say it's heavy, how heavy? Leaf motor/inverter set is ~60kg. If you include PDM that's another ~20 kg. GS450H is ~130kg if I remember right. You say you need hill climbing ability I think your original gearbox would give best versatility there as you could choose your gear ratio. Leaf motor would provide plenty of power for your van. Nissan eNV200 van with EM57 motor and gen2 80 kw inverter can carry a tonne of load easily - we tried it (although springs went almost to the floor). With gen3 Leaf stack you can have up to 160 kw.

[Jacobsmess]

Why are you ruling out Leaf motor coupled to your existing gearbox? You say it's heavy, how heavy? Leaf motor/inverter set is ~60kg. If you include PDM that's another ~20 kg. GS450H is ~130kg if I remember right. You say you need hill climbing ability I think your original gearbox would give best versatility there as you could choose your gear ratio. Leaf motor would provide plenty of power for your van. Nissan eNV200 van with EM57 motor and gen2 80 kw inverter can carry a tonne of load easily - we tried it (although springs went almost to the floor). With gen3 Leaf stack you can have up to 160 kw.

I'd say my gearbox is about 50-60kg.
I'd like to do without it for simplicity tbh, less maintenance required, lighter, no need to change gears. I like single speed/direct drive where I can. The gs300H is around 70kg and fits in place of my existing gearbox perfectly.... It's just the torque that's got me concerned. Even after asking ChatGPT and getting 10 different answers for the same question haha

[m.art.y]

Well Leaf motor + your gearbox you would have similar weight as the GS450h. It would be pretty simple - just adapter plate and coupler, no clutch needed. You could drive in 3rd most of the time but have the ability to go lower for hill climbing when needed.
I wouldn't count on 300H for your application.

[marcexec]

Love the project! GS/IS300h (L210) weight 90kg: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Toyota/Lexus_GS300h_CVT.
The L110 is only 10cm longer but ~40kg heavier. It's "proven", but shifting hasn't been implemented (apart from Webinterface).
What diff ratios are available?

[Jacobsmess]

Love the project! GS/IS300h (L210) weight 90kg: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Toyota/Lexus_GS300h_CVT.
The L210 is only 10cm longer but ~40kg heavier. It's "proven", but shifting hasn't been implemented (apart from Webinterface).
What diff ratios are available?

When you shifting what are you referring to? There is not gear choices on the transmission as far as I know

On my van model I believe the following ratios were standard...
4.86
4.89
5.33
5.29
4.1
4.38
4.4

I've assumed/hoped mine is 4.1 but am yet to check (no plate on it and it's been pissing it down so not had chance to get under the van and count the turns....
Apparently sprinter diff gears or axles can be fit that have a 3.72 ratio which would help with speed significantly.

[marcexec]

Sorry that should have been L110 (GS450h) above which has two gear ratios. Shifting while operating hasn't been done yet.

[Jacobsmess]

Sorry that should have been L110 (GS450h) above which has two gear ratios. Shifting while operating hasn't been done yet.

Ah yes I see, the GS450H is really going to eat into the engine bay space which I'm trying to currently squeeze 36 fairly large batteries into. My current plan is to fit the GS300H motor allowing for the extra 10cm so if needed I can swap out the GS300H for the GS450H motor.

[johu]

Really lastly, are there any cheapish motors I could put in place of the differential? This would obviously be the lightest and neatest solution but not sure what options exist if any outside of Tesla units which are expensive or mitsubishi units which aren't powerful enough from what I've seen....

Perhaps Outlander rear motor could be an option here

[Jacobsmess]

Perhaps Outlander rear motor could be an option here

I don't think the outlander motor will have enough power, isn't it rated around 50kw?

Also, given the large amount of engineering a fabrication work require to change from a solid axle to a live one and modifying the suspension I'm going to leave the rear diff swap idea, as neat as it may be.

[marcexec]

I don't think the outlander motor will have enough power, isn't it rated around 50kw?

Also, given the large amount of engineering a fabrication work require to change from a solid axle to a live one and modifying the suspension I'm going to leave the rear diff swap idea, as neat as it may be.

70kW from 2018 onwards, but presumably the same unit on the older ones. It's also power limited due to the lower voltage of the PHEV battery. OEM inverter can run 400V. https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... Drive_Unit
@195Nm ore or less a 1:1 match to the original engine (when new).

[Jacobsmess]

70kW from 2018 onwards, but presumably the same unit on the older ones. It's also power limited due to the lower voltage of the PHEV battery. OEM inverter can run 400V. https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... Drive_Unit
@195Nm ore or less a 1:1 match to the original engine (when new).

Definitely an interesting match with HP and torque. Unfortunately these vans are notoriously underpowered so a larger motor is more appealing, also as already said the extra fabrication and rebuilding of the rear axle is perhaps a bit beyond me.

[arber333]

I don't think the outlander motor will have enough power, isn't it rated around 50kw?

Also, given the large amount of engineering a fabrication work require to change from a solid axle to a live one and modifying the suspension I'm going to leave the rear diff swap idea, as neat as it may be.

Outlander rear motor can produce 70kW with OEM battery. Really i think even with OEM inverter max power could be more than 100kW if there is no battery power limit. Up to date no one has demonstrated this.
Otherwise i belive motor is rated 30kW continuous operation.

[Aragorn]

Tbh, this is making me think it's a non starter given the wheel torque from the CVT or leaf would be around 1300nm...
The current engine in first gear should be putting out just below 4000nm.... Assuming all torque is output to the wheels and not also used for turning auxiliaries.

how did you get 1300nm?

The CVT is rated (by the factory) to 300nm from MG2, 3.33 reduction from the planetary and a futher 4.1:1 reduction from your rear diff puts you at >4000nm?

and thats without MG1 helping!

the GS300h was geared almost 50% longer than your proposing, with a ~120mph top speed, and while its not a van, its no lightweight either...

[Jacobsmess]

how did you get 1300nm?

The CVT is rated (by the factory) to 300nm from MG2, 3.33 reduction from the planetary and a futher 4.1:1 reduction from your rear diff puts you at >4000nm?

and thats without MG1 helping!

the GS300h was geared almost 50% longer than your proposing, with a ~120mph top speed, and while its not a van, its no lightweight either...

Are you not double counting? The rated 300nm would already include the 3.33 planetary reduction no? If not then there is my mistake. But it does mean that the IS300H would be sitting at around 1300nm along with the leaf without its gearbox

[Aragorn]

To give some additional data points (albeit from the GS450h)... Damiens recent dyno pull was putting down around 2000nm wheel torque. Thru a 2.8 rear diff. So around 700nm out the back of the gearbox.

And bear in mind, thats with the 450h box in high gear at 1.9:1 off the MG2, rather than the 3.33:1 you get with the 300h. He tried in low gear (3.9:1) on the dyno and it just smoked the tyres.

From the data available, i cant see any reason why the 300h CVT wouldnt do the job.

[SuperV8]

Sounds an interesting project,
In my humble opinion - I think either mounting a leaf motor to your existing gearbox or just bolting in a Lexus gearbox will both prove plenty for moving your van. Just pick the option which you would find easier - and which is move available/common in your country.

I think you have a bigger challenge with your battery size.
what MPG or L/100km do you get in your van at 80mph? or your cruising speed?
If we assume 25mpg? which is 11.2L/100km that is very roughly 57.79 kWh/100km if petrol or 63.39 kWh/100km if diesel.
So your 80kWh pack would only get you about 140km or 87miles.
If you manage to get 30mpg? which is 9.4L/100km that is 48.5 kWh/100km - 53.2 kWh/100km which is 160km or 100miles.

For a sanity check - the new eSprinter has a listed efficiency of: Energy consumption 30.9 – 50.7kWh/100km
and a WLTP range in miles (Extra High – Low/Extra Urban) 67.1 – 109.4 with a 47kWh useable

[Jacobsmess]

Sounds an interesting project,
In my humble opinion - I think either mounting a leaf motor to your existing gearbox or just bolting in a Lexus gearbox will both prove plenty for moving your van. Just pick the option which you would find easier - and which is move available/common in your country.

I think you have a bigger challenge with your battery size.
what MPG or L/100km do you get in your van at 80mph? or your cruising speed?
If we assume 25mpg? which is 11.2L/100km that is very roughly 57.79 kWh/100km if petrol or 63.39 kWh/100km if diesel.
So your 80kWh pack would only get you about 140km or 87miles.
If you manage to get 30mpg? which is 9.4L/100km that is 48.5 kWh/100km - 53.2 kWh/100km which is 160km or 100miles.

For a sanity check - the new eSprinter has a listed efficiency of: Energy consumption 30.9 – 50.7kWh/100km
and a WLTP range in miles (Extra High – Low/Extra Urban) 67.1 – 109.4 with a 47kWh useable

Following the responses I'm no longer concerned about the power and speed, regarding range I'm confident I can achieve around 100miles with an 80kWh pack. My van currently manages around 20mpg, but is likely only 30% efficient, some of that efficiency goes to sustaining the van (power steering, water pump, etc.) I've worked backwards from my current economy and assuming 30% efficiency (it's an old IDI diesel engine) I'd hit 125miles from 80kwh, this is inline with what many have told me which is to expect 1.5 miles/kwh and also site roughly in line with what I'd expect when compared to modern EV Luton vans.