Prius Gen3 Inverter Hacking

[arber333]

I see then. It will be like two motor drive in line. You will have to be careful to idle MG1 or drive it with torque in relation to MG2. That way it will not drag the shaft in regen.

So if you make a coupling for both motors than you can take the chain and rest of the stuff out. It is only weight and resistance...

A

[johnspark]

That's exactly right, so that saves losses from the chain and gears. But as you state, will need to idle MG1 or drive with small amount of torque. So from my experiences, would set MG2 as master and MG1 as follower. So my idea is to use MG2 most of the time and MG1 only at the higher speeds where the torque is low.

[johnspark]

At 6006 rpm,
gear losses are: 1645.3W (25C)
motor rotor losses are: 472.8W
planetary gears,
gen rotor,
sun gear losses are: 264.9W (don't have gen on its own)

According to: pg 24 Evaluation of 2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid Drive System ORNL

[Jack Bauer]

Schematic for the V2 board now done.

[arber333]

That's exactly right, so that saves losses from the chain and gears. But as you state, will need to idle MG1 or drive with small amount of torque. So from my experiences, would set MG2 as master and MG1 as follower. So my idea is to use MG2 most of the time and MG1 only at the higher speeds where the torque is low.

Hm... What if you would use a single throttle with split filtering and setup the response so you would always have zero throttle on MG1 before MG2. You would make R bridge so to have MG1 throttle always lower than MG2.
When throttle would be pressed MG1 would idle up to some level when MG2 would develop real torque, then it would help on demand.

[johnspark]

its definitely worth trying because it is a relatively simple control scheme, that can be adjusted during testing...

[johnspark]

its definitely worth trying because it is a relatively simple control scheme, that can be adjusted during testing...

[arber333]

Schematic for the V2 board now done.

Hi JB

I am working on my Prius inverter to charger conversion.
BTW i used your board outline as a measure and will credit you of course .
Now i am observing 50p control cable and others. Can you answer a question or two

- What is the purpose of conn9 pin HVIL? Is this a live HV+ signal or is it opto isolated analog signal. Or even further, digital data for HV value?
- What is the Fault signal like? Is it Active Low or Active High? It is the same for all PS, no?
- What is the characteristic of coolant sensor? Is it NTC or digital? Need to make a values table and i dont want to mess up my workshop . Do you have
the table?

EDIT:
- Also, what is the polarity of IGBT signals. Are they direct or invered?

tnx

Arber

[arber333]

Schematic for the V2 board now done.

Hi JB

I am working on my Prius inverter to charger conversion.
BTW i used your board outline as a measure and will credit you of course .
Now i am observing 50p control cable and others. Can you answer a question or two

- What is the purpose of conn9 pin HVIL? Is this a live HV+ signal or is it opto isolated analog signal. Or even further, digital data for HV value?
- What is the Fault signal like? Is it Active Low or Active High? It is the same for all PS, no?
- What is the characteristic of coolant sensor? Is it NTC or digital? Need to make a values table and i dont want to mess up my workshop . Do you have
the table?

EDIT:
- Also, what is the polarity of IGBT signals. Are they direct or invered?

tnx

Arber

OK I found some more info on one of the posts on DIYELECTRICCAR
- Current sensors are 5v centered and react at 10mV/A - good to know!
- IGBT drive lines are active high 5v - good!
- 7.45khz for the boost converter - This will be noisy!

So, can you fill in the missing info please?
1. What is on the conn9? Is this direct HV or 0V - 5V signal, or anything else?
2. What is the Fault signal? Is it Active high or Low?
3. Coolant sensor curve?

tnx

[arber333]

Damn i just found out HVIL connector is in fact part of an interlock circuit that shuts inverter off if we remove the black cover from the upper part.
So now i can actually use whatever cionnector i want to supply HV to my charger brain.

[Jack Bauer]

Schematic for the V2 board now done.

Hi JB

I am working on my Prius inverter to charger conversion.
BTW i used your board outline as a measure and will credit you of course .
Now i am observing 50p control cable and others. Can you answer a question or two

- What is the purpose of conn9 pin HVIL? Is this a live HV+ signal or is it opto isolated analog signal. Or even further, digital data for HV value?
HVIL = High Voltage Interlock. It is a loop used to detect if hv connectors are properly seated, cover is in place etc. In this case I loop it into the NAND gate and have a jumper to disable for testing.

- What is the Fault signal like? Is it Active Low or Active High? It is the same for all PS, no?
Fault signals are 5v when not faulted and pull low when a fault is detected. It is worth noting that even if you ignore fault signals the igbt drivers shut down anyway:)

- What is the characteristic of coolant sensor? Is it NTC or digital? Need to make a values table and i dont want to mess up my workshop . Do you have
the table?
I have not got that far as yet but they do look like ntc. The igbt temp sensors seem to exactly match the semikron option in tmphs.

EDIT:
- Also, what is the polarity of IGBT signals. Are they direct or invered?
The igbt drive lines must be pulled low via a 100R resistor in order to activate the associated gate.

tnx

Arber

OK I found some more info on one of the posts on DIYELECTRICCAR
- Current sensors are 5v centered and react at 10mV/A - good to know!
- IGBT drive lines are active high 5v - good!
- 7.45khz for the boost converter - This will be noisy!

So, can you fill in the missing info please?
1. What is on the conn9? Is this direct HV or 0V - 5V signal, or anything else?
2. What is the Fault signal? Is it Active high or Low?
3. Coolant sensor curve?

tnx

[arber333]

Ok JB, can you confirm following?

- i will only use PWM on BOOST top driver and pull BOOST low driver up to 5V. This will give me Buck converter from 600Vdc to 380Vdc etc...
- If i dont want to use MG1 phase contacts i need to pull MG1 driver tracks up to 5V?
- If i want to use MG2 phase contacts as input for 3phase i need to pull its driver tracks to 5V. This way i will only use reverse diodes to rectify 3phase.
- Do you think i can leave MG1 and MG2 fault pins floating. Only BOOST fault pin will matter for charging anyway.

What kind of signal is DCBUS 1 and 2? Is it analog 0V - 5V? I cant test because i already took my Prius board apart.

tnx

A

[Jack Bauer]

Ok JB, can you confirm following?

- i will only use PWM on BOOST top driver and pull BOOST low driver up to 5V. This will give me Buck converter from 600Vdc to 380Vdc etc...
they have their own pullups
- If i dont want to use MG1 phase contacts i need to pull MG1 driver tracks up to 5V?
they have their own pullups
- If i want to use MG2 phase contacts as input for 3phase i need to pull its driver tracks to 5V. This way i will only use reverse diodes to rectify 3phase.
they have their own pullups
- Do you think i can leave MG1 and MG2 fault pins floating. Only BOOST fault pin will matter for charging anyway.
yes that's fine.
What kind of signal is DCBUS 1 and 2? Is it analog 0V - 5V? I cant test because i already took my Prius board apart.
Its in my notes. Will lookup.

tnx

A

[arber333]

Tnx Damien.
Theese days i was working couple of times late at night and comparing notes suffers somewhat...
So i will summarize . Feel free to correct me.

- To drive charger i will use EMW setup with some of my twists .
- HVIL = High Voltage Interlock. For DIY built we can ignore this one IF we use our own safety in maintenance - our brain.
- Fault signals are 5v when not faulted and pull low when a fault is detected. I will definitely use this with some NC interface to inhibit PWM
- I will use original NTC and later compare characteristic to semicron in code. If not i see i can use whatever sensor on the coolant line i can imagine .
- Current sensors are 5v centered and react at 10mV/A
- MG and BOOST drivers have their own pullups in the circuit and we can ignore them if we dont use them.
- Since i will be using HCPL-7520 to sense output voltage i will ignore DCBUS contacts for now. Maybe later in adaptation we could just use that I/Os and adapt the code.

I decided i will not use original current sensors. Thay are located on MG lines that will be my inputs. I would need to calculate PWM difference etc... Rather i will put one Tamura L31S100S05FS 5V sensor after capacitor output line.

There is still a problem where (if) to mount output diode. But if we consent to keep charger permanently connected we can use a NTC resistor across DC contactor to keep DC link precharged. I always use diode like VS-RA160FA120. It could be mounted directly to the car chassis to dissipate heat.

I will now make a new thread.

[arber333]

My new thread... viewtopic.php?f=14&t=257

Say JB, can you tell me if you actually tried to run Buck/Boost converter upwards of 300Vdc on the battery side? Today when i tried to run DCDC again i got a sick feeling that Toyota put a brake to my developement on the 200V battery side. You were talking about some ASIC protection. Do you think it would work to buck from 600Vdc on the motor side down to 360Vdc on the battery side? I think system wouldnt care since transistors have to be 1200V rated anyways. What do you think?

[johnspark]

- I will use original NTC

Here is a characteristic curve for the Prius Gen 3 temp sensor attached to the water pipe which i created over a lazy few hours.

[arber333]

- I will use original NTC

Here is a characteristic curve for the Prius Gen 3 temp sensor attached to the water pipe which i created over a lazy few hours.

WoW!
Nice package of thermistors you have there. Thank you.

[johnspark]

no worries arber333 i only created the Prius one so better not take credit for the other ones.

Kind regards.

[arber333]

Hi Jack Bauer, can you inform me if all those power (+5V, -5V, +12V and GND) connections on white 50p connector are inputs or can you specify which one is output? If it is needed, what is the power requirements of +/-5V supply.

tnx

Arber

[arber333]

I have connected my Ampera battery to Prius inverter and observed DC_BUS1 and DC_BUS2 signals. There are three power supplies needed for operation of power section. I used Lab PSU for 13.7Vdc and 2x simple 5V 1A ACDC power supply. Since we need to supply -5V and +5V i wired outputs in series so i got +5V, GND and -5V. This can be done because both 5V supplies have isolated inputs. I see i will have to make 2 simple split supplies for my board design similarly to what JB did.

Heres what I found out:
1. DC_BUS1 measures voltage on the Battery side, when battery is disconnected it is effectively 0V.
2. DC_BUS2 measures voltage on the motor DC side. When i move outside source its value is 0.554V.
3. When battery is at 213Vdc i get DC_BUS1 value and DC_BUS2 value 1.075V.

I could go up to 380Vdc with Ampera battery and i arrived to BUS voltage 4,758V.
I can see from data that battery voltage is limited to something around 400Vdc. There DC_BUS1 becomes 5V and Arduino AD wont be able to reference above that. I have yet to try over 400Vdc. I have 32V power supply which i can wire in series with battery. This will show how high this inverter can go.
Also i intend to try to connect 3phase 400Vac and inverter should make 600Vdc rectified.

I input rest of values into XLS file to interpolate between them, see the file.

[Jack Bauer]

Nice work Arber. I hadn't gotten that far regards interpreting the bus voltage feedback. When you are hooking up 3 phase grid power I'd recommend wiring a 100w filament lamp or similar in series with each phase to limit any potential fault currents. Also keep in mind the dc link cap is in the lid and should be refitted. It can be removed from the lid quite easilly.

[arber333]

Nice work Arber. I hadn't gotten that far regards interpreting the bus voltage feedback. When you are hooking up 3 phase grid power I'd recommend wiring a 100w filament lamp or similar in series with each phase to limit any potential fault currents. Also keep in mind the dc link cap is in the lid and should be refitted. It can be removed from the lid quite easilly.

I will be carefull, promise.
I now have a straight idea what to do. I will just hijack EMW charger design and mess a bit with its software. I need to adapt voltage signal lines.
I can directly use battery side voltage report but i will have to change the EMW equasion. The HV input side EMW uses simple opto response and i will have to adapt that too. since it is a simple conditional it shouldnt be hard. At least voltage lines are properly isolated here.

I will use one tamura 100A current 5V sensor. The existing sensors require to complicated circuit for now. And they are located on wrong side of the buck system.

Next step would be to use the design both ways, a charge pump to charge a car and reversely supply filtered DC to a house, another car etc...

[arber333]

Hm... Damien did you trace which of the Boost temp sensors are for which section? Boost H is for like Boost 1 temp and Boost L is for Boost 2 temp?

tnx

[johnspark]

Hi All,

In a few weeks time i hope to connect my Prius V3 to a Prius V2 transaxle. The easy way is to connect MG2 the motor to the Inverter MG1 and MG1 generator to the inverter MG2. Does anyone know the power limitations on these two MG1 and MG2 inverter bridges?
IF there is too much limitation i will just have to work out how to extend these leads.

cheers and thanks.

[johnspark]

Answered my own question, according to Oakridge 2010 Prius evaluation, page 6:

Prius Generation 3 Inverter: Generator output can be up to 42kW , therefore this should be able to drive my Prius Gen 2 50kW motor with enough voltage.

Anyway, if it is a limitation, i will work out a way to swap the transaxle MG1and MG2 cables.