VW T4 with Tesla LDU

[tollerteppich]

Hello Guys,

I am infected from the Tesla Virus , My Name is Alex im a Electrican, i have Study Energytechnic, i came From Hannover Germany, And for my Children i want to Drive without CO2.

I have an 2001 VW T4 Highline Bus Its Front is a Litle bit Crunshi but i have all Frontparts Allready. I want to put in a Tesla Drive Unit. Original the Car has 75Kw (102PS). 50KW is ok For me.

I have also a 25s 33p Tesla Model 3 Battery Pack ~96V and 158Ah. I have the Idea To Split The Pack in have and Conect these to a 50s 16p ~192V 75Ah. I Will Update the Capacy Later when i became a good Pack.Actual i think as Daily Driver is 14,4KWh enouth. It Needs A Box under The Bus and a BMS.

I Have Calculated that on 192V @50KW i have a Current of 260A what equals 16,27A on each Cell or ~3,4C. That i thik is OK for the Cells. But its only 192V/1,41=136Vrms i am not sure that i calculatet right.

That is what i have. Now i look at a Drivetrain. But what is the Best option ? I have no background on Tesla Drive Units his Variants and his Capebilitys.

What Drive is the Best to Convert ? At EV West i see all time The Model S LDU.
On local Market i found this:
Model S Sport Prefomance Rear Motor 2017 1002633-01-R 2500€
Model S S70D Rear Drive with Axle 3000€
Model X 2015 Rear Motor 1037000-00-F 2737€
ASY,Drive,Unit,3.0-150,Rear 1037000-00-F 2090€
Model 3 Front Motor P1117428-00-C 3000€
Model S 85D 2015 2000€
Model 3 2019 1120980-00-F 2400€
Model X 2018 2200€
Model S 75D 2017 Front Motor 1035000-00-J 2500€


Is it possible to Set an Power limit in the Openinverter ?

Can the Openinverter do recuperate ?

What BMS is good to comunicate with the Tesla Drivetrain ?

Questions over questions.

I hope anyone can Help Me

LG Alex

[johu]

Hi and welcome! I live rather nearby.

Very nice project car.

Is it possible to Set an Power limit in the Openinverter ?

Yes

Can the Openinverter do recuperate ?

Yes

Your subtle power requirements might also make a Prius inverter and transaxle an option which is way, way cheaper but also not well tested. Many people are attempting to use this combo but I don't think there are any running cars yet.

Tesla is a well trotted path. You should look into the small drive units

[tollerteppich]

Jes the Highline is my Dreamcar, since 2010 I've only been driving T4 buses, it's my third bus. A friend had an accident with it and fatally injured someone with it, mentally he couldn't do anything with the bus and almost gave it to me for free. it has leather seats, two zones, AC back to back seats and a sleeping bench.

The right longitudinal beam must be straightened by 25mm and the lower window frame must be replaced.

Yes, that's right Kassel, that's almost around the corner, I grew up in Holzminden on the Weser.
How and where can I change this display with city / country? I didn't find it.

Yes, that's right, my performance requirements are currently low, but in the future, when I get a Model3 battery pack, more power should come from the motor. Because of the low voltage, the battery will not provide much power for the motor.

The original drive shafts will also no longer fit. What is the best way to do this ? a friend has a CNC company for mechanical parts. I also recently got a 4-axis CNC machine, but I am still very busy learning: D

In terms of technology, I'm very interested in the motor of the Model 3 Drive Unit, due to the better operating behavior of the SynRM motor.

But I think in order to have a good success I should take the LDU from the Model S. Are there any special variants that I have to pay attention to?

I think there are different rear versions right?

I haven't read anything about the Model X versions, only SDU and LDU. i think LDU looks like this https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=476

At EV West it says from 275V onwards it still works with my 192V?

[Isaac96]

It will probably be difficult to reconfigure the Model 3 pack for the higher voltage, so you may need to look at something different.

With the Johannes board the motor can work with any voltage between 100v-400v. 192v is pretty low, I don't think I have seen anyone run the Tesla motors at that speed.

The SDU will likely be better for you, especially if you only need 50Kw; it can do 220Kw in bursts.
The Model X and Model S motors are the same. Just be sure to get a motor from before about 2019 and you should be just fine (in 2019 they changed the front motor in the cars for a Model 3 unit).

Model 3 motor control is still under development so that is not a recommended path; maybe in a few months the control board will be ready for general use.

[arber333]

It will probably be difficult to reconfigure the Model 3 pack for the higher voltage, so you may need to look at something different.

With the Johannes board the motor can work with any voltage between 100v-400v. 192v is pretty low, I don't think I have seen anyone run the Tesla motors at that speed.

The SDU will likely be better for you, especially if you only need 50Kw; it can do 220Kw in bursts.
The Model X and Model S motors are the same. Just be sure to get a motor from before about 2019 and you should be just fine (in 2019 they changed the front motor in the cars for a Model 3 unit).

Model 3 motor control is still under development so that is not a recommended path; maybe in a few months the control board will be ready for general use.

I think Model 3 front motor is also ACIM? Might be compact and powerfull enough?

For 50kW you could easily use Mitsubishi Outlander motor with original driveshafts. Motor is a nicely packaged 10pole PMSM which can turn to 12000rpm. It can be run by any FOC Openinverter, Lebowski inverter OR maybe use Mitsubishi original inverter with commanded torque through CAN bus. Another plus is that it has actually been used to power 2ton vehicle already.

[tollerteppich]

I can easily bring the Model3 Pack to 192V. I know that the voltage for the engine is very low, but for testing for powers of only 30-50kw that should be enough.

The motor should in any case later deliver 200-300hp with a different battery. At the moment I have very little money but still want to find a point where I can start with the renovation. and I think the engine is the most important point.

I think I'll take the LDU.

I would also have the opportunity to get a Siemens IPV 5135-4WS14-W11-Z fon a Sprinter for 600 €. But the inverter is also a Siemens and already 20 years old in contact with salt water.

Adapting would not be a problem, but I want to avoid transmission problems. A transmission repair also costs a minimum of 1500 €. then I can take an LDU for 2000-2500 €.

I really like the design of Tesla where everything is together and coordinated with each other. I think you can't beat the cost-benefit.

OK so an LDU before 2019.

Do you have occasional problems with LDU? If so, in which form ?

It's hard to see if everything is working when you buy it. are there still options?

what should i avoid ?

I will avoid engines with fire damage, that's clear.


Now one more thing.
what about the installation position of the engine. can i turn the motor 180 ° back to front?
the original direction of rotation is then wrong. You can simply say turn the motor the other way around, but is the gearbox with the helical teeth designed for this?

I think turning up and down is not possible because of the oil pump.

is the front engine possibly better suited due to the design? a 3d model i have only for the LDU.

[Isaac96]

You can turn the LDU backwards if you need to. You'll just need a 'reverse oil pump' from ZeroEV.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=210 Should have some good info on running the unit backwards.

[tollerteppich]

that's cool. Thanks for the tip.

Do you happen to know what to do with the gear bearings?

The transmission is only designed for 15kmh in reverse. and the helical gears then push with full force in the other direction.

Do you know which bearings are installed or where you can get the information?



The conversion started yesterday, the next thing to do is to straighten the body.
Maybe I'll have a company do that or someone who has done it many times.

I have to do the removal of the axle / motor on the donor vehicle Nr.2 again.

[ZooKeeper]

Do you happen to know what to do with the gear bearings?

The transmission is only designed for 15kmh in reverse. and the helical gears then push with full force in the other direction.

Do you know which bearings are installed or where you can get the information?

The TESLA stuff has been run in reverse rotation with success and for extended periods, the bearings are not the real concern, the lube pump IS. With the lube pump running backwards, no oil is delivered to the critical areas, which is why you need to change it as suggested above.

[Boxster EV]

As mentioned by Isaac, I’m running a LDU in reverse with zeroEV oil pump.

I’ve done 5000 miles like this with absolutely no issues.

[tollerteppich]

Many Thanks
Yes, the oil pump is now clear to me.

I am interested, for example, in whether the bearings on both sides are the same or not.

But I'll see if I convert the oil pump, everything has to be disassembled anyway.

Has anyone of you ever bought a complete Model3 long range battery or has information about prices outside of Germany?
Are there good sources in Holland (4h away)?

[muehlpower]

Many Thanks
Yes, the oil pump is now clear to me.

I am interested, for example, in whether the bearings on both sides are the same or not.

But I'll see if I convert the oil pump, everything has to be disassembled anyway.

Has anyone of you ever bought a complete Model3 long range battery or has information about prices outside of Germany?
Are there good sources in Holland (4h away)?

6309 / C3 on the left and 6310 / C3 on the right are installed on the differential. The intermediate shaft is mounted on the left with 6308 / C3 and on the right with RNU2207E.TVP2. I bought my long range Model 3 battery for € 9000 including delivery in Germany, complete with everything that is in the penthouse. The same provider has meanwhile sold one for € 8,500.

[tollerteppich]

muehlpower Thanks for the information of the bearings.

ok is that a provider from Koblenz? : D how satisfied were you with the purchase of the battery?

Did you install the battery in one piece or did you dismantle it?
what of the built-in technology were you able to use? Charger determined? the BMS too? what did the control cost you in total?

I would prefer to continue using the M3 battery as it comes only in a housing that fits under the Bulli.

Unfortunately I didn't see any cables on the LDU that he sells.

I ask because of that because 8500 is a lot of money for me. the same provider also has the LDU for 2500 and I will ask him for a package price if you were satisfied with him.

Dam that will be my biggest, coolest and most expensive project ever.

but as far as I know, nobody has built a T4 Highline with LDU and M3 pack.

In any case, the problem is with the torsion bars on the front axle, which are attached behind the first row of seats and are a bit in the way.
I'm thinking of converting the upper front axle wishbones like the T5 with struts in the wheel arch.
the handbrake cables are also in the way for the last 40cm 4-5 cm ... the rear heater unit is also in the way which will probably come into the engine compartment with hoses.

my goal is that little or nothing changes in the interior. no battery inside.

how were your experiences with the tüv?

[tollerteppich]

Now it's going around: D

The LDU finally arrived yesterday.

I also got drive shafts together for 2700 €, but the motor cables are missing.

Missing parts:
-LDU board - ordered
- MS3Pro ULTIMATE Center Harness from DIY Auto Tune
-Reverse Pump from ZeroEV.
-Encoder connector - from where?
-Motor cables - Does one of you have motor cables lying around for B + and B-?
-Precharge Relay + Resistor
-Main relay

Have I forgotten something in terms of hardware to get the motor to turn?

Damn it is expensive, i am Almost Empty ...

Many greetings
Alex

[muehlpower]

The plug for the encoder is also available at Zero EV. HV cable I have maybe a set left.

[johu]

Now it's going around: D

Didn't you mean to say "equal goes it loose"

Sent out your board this afternoon, with some luck you get it by tomorrow.

[tollerteppich]

Now it's going around: D

Didn't you mean to say "equal goes it loose"

Sent out your board this afternoon, with some luck you get it by tomorrow.

I have no time pressure

sometimes google translates funny things

The plug for the encoder is also available at Zero EV. HV cable I have maybe a set left.

that would be really nice if you have HV cables for me


Is it possible to tell the EVBMW controller that it should listen to a certain CAN code, for example.

i have the idea to use the can signal from the accelerator pedal that is generated by the TDI ECU. just like the brake signal.

is that possible?

[Isaac96]

Yes, the EVBMW controller can use a CAN signal from the accelerator. The wiki has some information, it's not exactly simple though.

[johu]

It's super simple (if you're computer scientist )
I also send throttle via CAN but I did decide to replace VW electronics by my own: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Touran_Co ... _connector
That way I can use the nice enclosure and also centrally manage BMS, car interfacing, DC-DC converter and CHAdeMO.

[tollerteppich]

Yes, the EVBMW controller can use a CAN signal from the accelerator. The wiki has some information, it's not exactly simple though.

Ok, thanks for the information. I will then read my way in due course.

It's super simple (if you're computer scientist )
I also send throttle via CAN but I did decide to replace VW electronics by my own: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Touran_Co ... _connector
That way I can use the nice enclosure and also centrally manage BMS, car interfacing, DC-DC converter and CHAdeMO.

that's a lot of Can-Bus integration you've done. Unfortunately I am not an electronics engineer, but sometimes I am very smart

I have done some Atmel Programming for my RC Airplanes.

Out of curiosity, don't you have a box to protect your batteries from water?

Unfortunately I don't have an electric steering system. the Tüv told me that I can retrofit one .... maybe someday: D

my first goal is to get the engine to turn. the second to install it mechanically. and then the rest

At the moment I'm also repairing a metal milling machine to sell it. to then use the money to pay for an electric forklift at the end of the month.

a lot of work.

[johu]

Out of curiosity, don't you have a box to protect your batteries from water?

Not a classical one. The batteries are bolted to the chassis then I surrounded them with some plastic sheets. Not water proof but spray proof. Good enough for Germany

my first goal is to get the engine to turn. the second to install it mechanically. and then the rest

For that goal you could indeed leave the VAG ECU in place. If they stuck to the scheme used in 2004 Touran you will find throttle on ID 0x380 Byte 2.

In openinverter terms that means:
- Set "throtmode" to CAN
- Set potmin=0, potmax=254
- CAN map pot in web interface by filling out the fields behind it and pressing "RX": 896, 16, 8, 32 (meaning 0x380, start reading at bit 16, read 8 bits, scale by 32 - to arrive at internal fixed point format)

[tollerteppich]

Not a classical one. The batteries are bolted to the chassis then I surrounded them with some plastic sheets. Not water proof but spray proof. Good enough for Germany

With what the batteries cost, I will try to either use the original box of the Model3 battery or to build a box made of VA that fits exactly. with is about that everything should last a very long time. Do you know what is lying around on the street, what is thrown up under the car. that would be too risky for me

For that goal you could indeed leave the VAG ECU in place. If they stuck to the scheme used in 2004 Touran you will find throttle on ID 0x380 Byte 2.

In openinverter terms that means:
- Set "throtmode" to CAN
- Set potmin=0, potmax=254
- CAN map pot in web interface by filling out the fields behind it and pressing "RX": 896, 16, 8, 32 (meaning 0x380, start reading at bit 16, read 8 bits, scale by 32 - to arrive at internal fixed point format)

Thank you for the information, I will use it as soon as I am ready.

Today I removed my 63KVA generator with a 10L truck engine from the yard in order to get to the front axle of the second donor Bulli.
The 151PS TDI Engine Died in April 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUD97yN07K0.

No this is not the option for long journeys
it was too cheap not to buy. And Run how a Swiss Clock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_c4gBOmlGU&t=72s
I put it on to my new storage Space, that i am build at least.

so now i have space to work. after the storm and rain it continues outside.

[tollerteppich]

The board arrived today.

I then quickly built a holder for the engine stand.

Soldered the plugs. So far so good.

now the plugs, cables, relays and resistor are missing

tomorrow I'll take the accelerator out of the second donor car.

my wife then wants a new wiring harness in her driver's door.

what is the best way to glue the wifi module?

i think i'm vomiting...
I just looked at the IGBTs after seeing a picture on page 2 in the LDU Threat.

Phase 1L
Looks OK

Phase 1R
Looks OK

Phase 2L
Looks like a blown IGBT in the middle

Phase 2R
Looks like a Air bubble in the middle

Phase 3L
Looks like 2 blown IGBTs

Phase 3R
Looks OK

It looks like life fucks me hard

what is the best way to go about checking the functionality?
test with low voltage i seen. witch voltage is good for save begin ?

I have the following power supplies available:
0-15V 40A
12V 40A
24V 40A
56V? 60A?
Model3 battery 96V

clear first structure according to the circuit diagram when I have the connector

[tollerteppich]

I got over the first shock tonight, I think.

I took a close look at everything this morning.

it gives the impression that there are only air bubbles.

the surface of the gel looks undamaged everywhere, that gives me hope that there are only air bubbles from the production.

Maybe jon volk can take a look at whether it looked exactly like that with him or whether it is different.

i took pictures and a video where i shine with the lamp from different angles.

I don't know exactly how to proceed.
Should I try to exchange the motor or give it back?

or to try to let it go first. Unfortunately I don't have the plug from ZeroEV yet.

if it is really broken and i don't get it exchanged i have turned a lot of money into smoke.

i checked the mouser website. The IGBTs alone cost around € 460 if all 96 pieces are identical. in such a case I would swap everything. questionable whether this is mechanically possible or whether the IGBTs are ultrasonically welded or something. i don't know i'm watching damien's teardown video.

a lot of questions ... it's really annoying.

i underestimated the emotional differences, from euphoria to excessive disenchantment. it is violent ...

[johu]

It's the coppery throwout that looks scary. Did it come like this or did it happen to you?

With a multimeter in diode mode you can make some simple checks. You put positive lead on phase leg and negative on positive DC terminal. That should give you 0.3V diode drop. Likewise negative on phase rail and positive on DC-. Blown IGBT usually short circuits this path and you get 0V.