Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Mitsubishi hybrid drive unit hacking
User avatar
RAS_666
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:10 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by RAS_666 »

Well after having an ac pump sitting around for ages meaning to log an outlander but never getting round to it some data in the outlander heater thread cracked it! most can logs i have found round the web have been missing many messages so thanks to the people in that thread. it appears to run quite easily requiring only 2 messages to get it going.

message 0x285 appears to enable it i believe this message says that the contactors are closed possibly.

Message 0x185 this one enables the pump and controls the speed/power.

message 0x185 byte 0 appears to be an enable byte 0x08 disables and 0x0B enables the operation. Byte 5 appears to be some sort of speed control. value 0x07 is off, 0x08 appears to run at the lowest speed and values up to 0x54 over that it will continue running if it was already running but will not start up.
pumprequest.png
pumprequest.png (5.78 KiB) Viewed 1366 times
messages returned from the pump:

0x388 is the only message i can see anything useful coming out of it it contains what i believe to be some basic faults and diagnostics, a rpm value and possibly a current value.
ACPUMPCAN.jpg
The connector contains a 12v supply from IGCT (1), ground (2) and CANH (3) + CANL (4)
pump connector.png
pump connector.png (23.84 KiB) Viewed 1366 times
I believe the corresponding connector for it to be 90980-10942 im sure thats what i got anyway they're pretty cheap on aliexpress!
JaniK
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:39 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by JaniK »

Nice find! Thanks for sharing!
Any opinions are my own, unless stated otherwise. I take no responsibility if you follow my way of doing things and it doesn't work. Please double check with someone who knows what they are doing.
projectgus
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:33 am

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by projectgus »

Great work! That's awesome you have it running - is it gassed with refrigerant or spinning dry?

(After capturing a bunch of logs I have still not gotten around to actually pulling the compressor out of my wreck... soon, though!)
User avatar
RAS_666
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:10 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by RAS_666 »

projectgus wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:55 am Great work! That's awesome you have it running - is it gassed with refrigerant or spinning dry?
its kinda spinning dry but i did get it quite cheap and even cheaper when it arrived from the breakers in the post with no blanking plugs and bits of grit inside :?
OutlandishPanda
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:25 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by OutlandishPanda »

Thanks! That is great detective work. According to the owners manual it takes POE MA68EV oil, which I assume is standard EV/hybrid compressor oil? I found this:

https://www.autoairconparts.co.uk/hybri ... 250ml.html

Next challenge for me is to work out how to get all the old PAG oil out of my Panda A/C expander, dryer and condenser. Does anyone have experience with this? Does a flush or two get all the oil out or do I physically have to tip the items so it drains out then flush? That will be a pain! The Toyota advice is to be scrupulously clean of PAG, or it will get you a few years later with the dreaded HV Earth Leakage Failure... Not that I have earth leakage detection on my Panda as yet.

I'm replacing an engine compressor with this Outlander compressor on my Panda EV and also reinstating the A/C cooling of the BMW PHEV pack. I don't think it is going to need much cooling but for the sake of a few pipes, which I have, and control of one extra valve it was worth a play.

Thanks again.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

I went to clean my AC system of old PAG oil. PAG oil is damaging to compressor motor wiring lacquer. It can cause shorts.
I searched for a bussiness that not only fills AC up but is able to clean it. They pressurize your system with AC valve bypassed and insert heated cleaning liquid several times. It was expensive for me but in the long run... 300€!
OutlandishPanda
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:25 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by OutlandishPanda »

Thanks for sharing that. Crazy expensive but good to know. I can buy new evap and condensor + dryer for less than £100 - the benefit of a dirt cheap donor car I suppose! Maybe that is the best way to go for me.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

Thanks for sharing. I just got my compressor here and i had it running in no time!!!
Scrolls up and down really well.
Attachments
AC compressor CAN.jpg
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

I am now experimenting with how to control AC compressor in the car.
Is it better to just switch ON the CAN telegram, or would compressor behave better if i would have 0x185 telegram on standby and AC signal would just change byte0 (enable) and vary byte5 (RPM command)?

EDIT: I think i will keep 0x185 on whenever ignition is on and AC switch will control standby byte0 and RPM byte5. That will be best for compressor i think.

Code: Select all

void sendCANframeE() { //AC compressor
       outframe.id = 0x185;            // 0x185 0B 00 1D 00 00 08 00 03 
        outframe.length = 8;            // Data payload 8 bytes
        outframe.extended = 0;          // Extended addresses - 0=11-bit 1=29bit
        outframe.rtr=1;                 //No request 
        if(digitalRead(Enable_pin) == HIGH) { // we are driving, no EVSE connected
        outframe.data.bytes[0]=0x0B; // status command 08 stbd, 0B start
        }   
        else {
        outframe.data.bytes[0]=0x08; //if we sense LOW we go to standby
        }              
        outframe.data.bytes[1]=0x00; // 
        outframe.data.bytes[2]=0x1D; // 1D works
        outframe.data.bytes[3]=0x00; //
        outframe.data.bytes[4]=0x00; //
        if(digitalRead(AC_pin) == HIGH { //AC pin is active
        outframe.data.bytes[5]=0x50; // RPM command 08 to 54
        }
        else {
        outframe.data.bytes[5]=0x08; //AC pin is inactive
        }        
        outframe.data.bytes[6]=0x00;
        outframe.data.bytes[7]=0x03;
       if(debug) {printFrame(&outframe,1);} //If the debug variable is set, show our transmitted frame             
       if(myVars.CANport==0) Can0.sendFrame(outframe);    //Mail it
         else Can1.sendFrame(outframe); 
}
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

After a lot of time probing the Outlander PHEV AC compressor it finally came to installation. I got compressor off some car dissasembly company and i took it because it also had AC pipes on. This way i will be absolutely certain everything will fit.
I wrote about it in detail here: https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/202 ... installed/
20211211_120031.jpg
This compressor is a little higher than Prius compressor on account of its inverter. This interfered with previous spot on the side of front motor mount.
I installed compressor on some sealant blocks with M8 threaded inserts. I also made new flexible hose connections that will allow me to rout new hoses in the engine bay.
20211211_184822.jpg
When i had everything prepared i put some Denso ND11 hybrid oil into it. This is neccessary because compressor oil is used to cool its motor. Any other oil may cause wire laquer damage and eventual short in the motor. So no other oil is allowed. I filled 130ml of oil using a syringe. Most of it i pushed in the motor side and at least 30ml i also sent to the compressor side. Compressor will eventually spatter the oil through the hoses also.
20211211_181707.jpg
I tightened the hoses and connected everything electrical under the car. I am using old AC compressor clutch signal to turn on a relay. This relay i will use to pull DUE signal to GND and this will signal for it to start transmitting correct CAN telegram.
Works like magic. Compressor spools up and runs and when it is not needed anymore is slowly spools down. This is way smoother than before with Prius compressor.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

Anyone has any experience with AC compressor mounting. I need an opinion.
I have made my mount from inox steel and welded a brace down the middle to stop it wobbling under compressor weight. This made the mount much sturdier and unmovable. As shock absorbing mounts i used 3 M8 rubber blocks. Compressor mounts on them which in turn makes it quieter.
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/#jp-carousel-2191

Now it still seems compressor is shaking under the car when it starts acceleration. Is that ok or are that kind of vibrations undesirable?
Should i use solid blocks to mount compressor?
User avatar
EV_Builder
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by EV_Builder »

I would add some 45/90/45 degrees small sheet to your bended angles. That will stiffen the mount allot and prevent it becoming a spring. Just for that, stiffness don't think it will break but that way the mounting gets solid and I suspect your M8 silent blocks start to work.

Idea?
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

EV_Builder wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:16 am I would add some 45/90/45 degrees small sheet to your bended angles. That will stiffen the mount allot and prevent it becoming a spring. Just for that, stiffness don't think it will break but that way the mounting gets solid and I suspect your M8 silent blocks start to work.

Idea?
Yes i made it just so, but later on off camera :). I added 2 simple straight 2mm inox sections 10cm x 2cm and welded in in the middle from behind and front of the mount. It did stiffen the upper mount section quite a lot. I was concerned that vibration could damage AC compressor internals. For now it just works... Hm... there is still some flex from the rubbber blocks. I hope compressor will be ok. With OEM car mounts i see compressors are bolted to the engine block directly!!??

I will take a photo when i need to go under the car. Its not easy because i added 1.5mm alu panel on the underside to protect compressor and steering pump from debris and maybe get some drag reduction.
User avatar
EV_Builder
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by EV_Builder »

Ahhh ok. I already feared you did that after re-reading your post.

Some more ideas for next time you should try to make a bracket so that the pump stands in stead of hangs. Also it helps if the legs are somehow angled. I stead of standing straight.

Can you add the article number of the compressor somewhere?
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

EV_Builder wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:34 am Can you add the article number of the compressor somewhere?
I was sure i already stated it somewhere here...
Outlander AC compressor P/N equivalents:
7813A378
EV24AN5
AKJ200A202B

Outlander AC hose
AMD45418
AMD46168
Attachments
20211211_120009.jpg
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

EV_Builder wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:34 am Some more ideas for next time you should try to make a bracket so that the pump stands in stead of hangs. Also it helps if the legs are somehow angled. I stead of standing straight.
Yes well sadly that was not possible due to other clutter under the bonnet. I also didnt have mounting points on the motor so I decided on 45° hanging mount. That way i wouldnt completely negate oil sump suction if that would be important. I dont think compressor minds because pipes are bend upwards and any oil that leaves it down the incline will eventually return with normal attitude.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

I have just inserted additional 8S cells to my 96S setup for final 104S config. of 420Vdc when full.
AC compressor doesnt mind the additional voltage and spins up nicely.

I see also 35 RPM command is quite enough for good cooling ability. No need to spool up compressor to full RPM.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

I have tried to run AC compressor to CAN command in 0x185 byte5=35.
When i apply command compressor spools up and cool air starts to blow 8-). I see about 3A draw at 410V which is about 1200W.
However after some seconds compressor cuts off with AC control in the car still on. After a second or two it restarts into pressure and tries again with the same result. I have a feeling we will have to make a closed loop control and observe RPM parameters in msg 0x388 bytes 2 and 3.
Maybe command byte5 is torque control and we would need to keep RPM at optimal value.
Anyone knows what is optimal RPM value for Outlander AC compressor?
User avatar
RAS_666
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:10 am
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by RAS_666 »

I haven’t fully tested it tbh as I don’t have it connected to an ac system or have an adequate power supply to run it under normal load. I did have it running for some conciderable time at a low speed setting and varying the load by blocking the outlet I saw the current consumption vary but it almost appears to run at a governed speed. The way it starts up runs fast then returns to a constant speed when you send a minimal value to it. However for higher values it soon overloads my small psu :roll:
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

RAS_666 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:31 pm I haven’t fully tested it tbh as I don’t have it connected to an ac system or have an adequate power supply to run it under normal load. I did have it running for some conciderable time at a low speed setting and varying the load by blocking the outlet I saw the current consumption vary but it almost appears to run at a governed speed. The way it starts up runs fast then returns to a constant speed when you send a minimal value to it. However for higher values it soon overloads my small psu :roll:
Well i made a simple loop control with my DUE reading CAN report on 0x388 and prepared the response. i choose 3500RPM and 2500RPM as marker values. So now my compressor should start and spool up to 3500rpm with 0x188 byte5 at 50. When it reached that mark it would drop byte5 to 20 and RPM should drop down. When it reached 2500RPM it would up the byte5 value to 35 which would spool it up again. That way it would run between the values coaxing itself from one or the other. Later on i could decrease the limit difference down to 500RPM.
I also have a paper about Sanden electric compressors which states best COP at lowest RPM is from some 3500RPM to 5000RPM.
I have to test the code now...
Attachments
Sanden-Electrical-Compressors-2021.pdf
(2.24 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
User avatar
EV_Builder
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by EV_Builder »

Varying the speed shouldn't be necessary I would guess. Are you sure that other messages don't time-out? Could it be that a 'reset' signal is sended permanently?
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

EV_Builder wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:26 am Varying the speed shouldn't be necessary I would guess. Are you sure that other messages don't time-out? Could it be that a 'reset' signal is sended permanently?
I suspect 0x188 byte5 does not command RPM, but rather torque. Torque control is much more efficient mode of control and i can still use CAN RPM reports to limit the torque. I suspect that because i noticed if i play with command from 20 to 50 there is noticably slower acceleration under pressure, but judging by the the sound compressor ends up at similar RPM. Now by using RPM report i will try to control RPM within some limits varying command in byte5. If i cant manage constant speed i will have to think of something else.
User avatar
EV_Builder
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by EV_Builder »

Could it be that you command a temperature setpoint. but on the other hand tell it target is reached.
So it pumps a bit and then stops like target reached?

Why would they implement a way of controlling the AC which involves logic in the 'master'? I would guess they deliver a solution.
Let me know how this goes.
arber333
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:37 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by arber333 »

Yeah... its seems like torque control. but it is really expotential.
When i tried to command b5=50 compressor quickly stalled and reset.
I changed to b5=35 and this lasted a bit longer.
Finally i set b5=25 and control was much more stable. it ran almost with the AC clutch signal. But when i observed the 0x388 values i noticed RPM was over 6000RPM! No wonder compressor was reducing power.
My closed loop doesnt work yet. I have to adjust my variables, but i will keep experimenting with b5 values.
Here is my recording of CAN traffic for b5=25.
Attachments
compressor_0001_0000.xls
(480.06 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
User avatar
EV_Builder
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Outlander PHEV A/C pump

Post by EV_Builder »

Do we know if there where more cars who used this ac compressor?
Maybe you need "funktionsrahmen" to know the fields of the messages.
Post Reply