Mid to long range camper bus as first project - bad idea?

[roepel]

Hi openinverter community,

first of all I'd like to express my appreciation for the work and documentation you already achieved. I was immediately drawn into fascination when I first stumbled upon openinverter. In this initial phase of fascination I started cultivating the idea of maybe converting an older camper van (eg. 2000 VW T4 as a holiday / surf trip car), but slowly some reality-check and decisions are to be made.

I read through quite some information here and the openinverter Volvo 850 conversion book. However my vehicle use case seemingly varies from the book and many community members, casting up some doubt wether I should really commit.

Main hurdles:
1. To bring up actual benefit, the camper van would need to be converted in a long-range-ish configuration. I aim for 300+ km driving range and CCS fast charge is a must I think. A typical trip would be like 400 - 1000 km one way.
2. I need quite some space inside, i.e. long wheelbase...
3. I cannot spend too much money just for the joy of conversion, passing TÜV and at least some reliability are prerequisites

However I dont need to go fast. Typical 100 to 110 on motorways would be sufficient, optimally 120 to 130 max speed, nor do I need the most complete and posh camper interieur, I plan on a light DIY bed, a small stove, something to sit on...thats basically it.

Is it a good idea as for a first conversion? I estimate I'd need to get hold of and fit around 70-80 kWh of battery (500 kg + ?), for a reasonable price, besides all the other requirements. Im afraid that I might get in trouble with weight limits (a typical T4 long wheelbase already has about 2 tons of empty weight I think, with typical overall weight limit being like 2.8 tons without major reinformcements.

What do you think? What could be appropriate donor cars?

Best, roepel

[Jacobsmess]

I'm converting a VW t5, they come on 3.2T variations of needed. A leaf motor stack fits in the engine bay easily l, mine is a flatbed Doka version, so I have enough space for up to 100kwh but first I will install 50kwh then add another pack in parallel or with a change over switch.
My estimations are around 2.5 miles/kWh.

[roepel]

Interesting...T5 was also an option I thought about but as it is once again heavier and has an (at least for me) challenging Canbus to master I favored late T4s recently.
What type of battery pack are you are planning to use?

[johu]

The T5 most likely has the same CAN protocol as my Touran https://openinverter.org/wiki/VW_Touran_Conversion . But of course if you find a good T4, why not. Also the 2002 date for EMC testing is considered by some testers.

The battery is obviously the largest single cost item, I always got mine from Scandinavia, like so: https://www.bruktdel.no/nbf/S%C3%B8k/?q ... 8yspenning . One in the list is 5000€. Of course you can replace "ID.4" by any other model. VW modules are nice to work with. For smooth rapid charging liquid cooling seems mandatory.

You should really enjoy what you're doing, otherwise you're likely to give up. Then rather look for a used eVito or something.
Talk to someone at TÜV before starting so that you're on the same page. I mean a station that is known for inspecting conversions. All others just look at you like you're some sort of alien.

[roepel]

Okay nice, thanks for your insights. Regarding TÜV I got 1-2 cadidates that at least were quite approachable to DIY soutions with older diesel/petrol cars and campers. I'll go ahead confronting them with Merkblatt 764, before starting to work on any conversion.

So while using a wreck Nissan Leaf + used VW battery, to convert an appropriate acceptor van appears to be an well-explored, cost efficient and worthwhile choice, regarding CCS implementation I assume there is no well-trodden path yet? I read about the Chademo adapters but with a large battery I'd assume trying to implement a native CCS to make use of the higher charge currents would be better, right?

[johu]

regarding CCS implementation I assume there is no well-trodden path yet?

Of course! Foccci
Our marketing department needs to work harder

https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php ... duct_id=79

[roepel]

Haha alright, I see that the limits are only set by my own motivation and maybe budget then

[Jacobsmess]

One thing of note, with a van you have the benefit of space and mounting options that you don't with a car.

[anupraj]

Hello Everyone,
I’m also planning an EV conversion project and found this discussion very inspiring.

For long trips like 500-800 km, do you think it's better to focus on optimizing battery efficiency or adding more battery capacity?

Regards,
Anup.

[Jacobsmess]

Hello Everyone,
I’m also planning an EV conversion project and found this discussion very inspiring.

For long trips like 500-800 km, do you think it's better to focus on optimizing battery efficiency or adding more battery capacity?

Regards,
Anup.

What do you mean by battery efficiency?
To make up the required range you'll need both.
Opt for the smallest/lightest/most aerodynamic base vehicle that is still usable for your needs, use the most efficient drivettrain setup that you can feasibly fit into the vehicle and then install the maximum battery pack size you can in the vehicle whilst keeping it safe and legal.

Oh and avoid off road tyres and external hanging elements to reduce drag.

[anupraj]

Thank you for the detailed reply.
I meant getting more range from the same charge by improving energy use or the drivetrain.

Your tips about picking an aerodynamic vehicle and efficient setup are really helpful. I’ll focus on those.

[uhi22]

I do not want to kill the idea of creating a vehicle which drives 1000km without charge, but there are regions where it is fine to charge each 200km, so concentrating on a well-cooled, fast charging capable battery instead of a really big one could be an alternative solution. Of course not in all corners of the world.

[modellfan]

Interesting project. I am having something similar in my mind for some years now, driving a T4. My conclusion is, I would never convert a T4. They are or are getting all rust buckets missing zinc coating. And they can not be upgraded in total weight. A T5 / T6 can be upgraded to 3.5t. I am pretty sure in a long wheel base you can put two id.4 packs each 80kwh or in other words 24 battery modules. At a pessimistic 30kwh/100km this will give a 500km+ range. Thats the real max you can get out of such a van imho.

[mrfred]

On a daily basis, I drive an electric car with a range of about 300-340 km. We have, on a few occasions, gone on vacation trips of up to 1100 km. Since we have small children, it often works perfectly to drive in stages of 200-250 km. We stop, charge, stretch our legs, and have lunch, dinner, or a coffee.

With good planning, so that one or two charging stops are combined with other activities, such as a meal break, charging doesn't feel like an inconvenient wait.

Speed, rolling resistance, and air drag have a big impact on range. On my old Tesla Model S, it makes a huge difference to the range whether the average speed is 80, 100, or 120 km/h. There is also quite a difference between 19" and 21" wheels.

I don't think it's an impossible project, but it might be more realistic to aim for a real-world range of 250+ km and CCS charging? I believe this would work perfectly with proper travel planning, without charging stops ruining the experience?

[ianlighting]

I’m part way through doing the grand parent of your possible vehicle - a ‘74 VW T2, you’ll find a few pages of my progress on this site, still early days.

But to answer your range / weight question - for me the end result ought to end up about 300kg heavier than stock, but that’s on a vehicle with an 800kg payload.

That’s based on a 60kWh battery that weighs 370kg, but the removed petrol stuff is about 70kg heavier than the replacement motor. Range - hard to be sure, but hopefully up to 200miles / 300km. But I’ve got loads of inefficiencies that might drop that somewhat.

Edit - real world testing found my summer time range to be 150 - 160 miles with my 60kWh battery and a full camping load.

My controller is Resolve-EV which is less open to tinkering to make what you want it to do, but means it’s closer to OEM as there’s no options. So worth considering your interest and aptitude for the different elements of a project - welding, programming, etc are all part of the mix, but different approaches you could take might lean more heavily on the different parts.

Resolve-EV as a Leaf-only controller has been Chademo only. But there’s a rumour of something coming to address a CCS option…

[T1Terry]

I have a '74 Kombi that is waiting for me to stop messing with the latest motorhome, getting shed built (harder than the motorhome fixing cause the wife has the money under control)

I'm still hovering between using the MG4 64 that has a 150kw motor and 64kwh battery that will go under the floor,
or
Gen 2 Prius EV transmission and either the 64kwh battery or ..... something else

Either one, I already have and it will use a Zombie inverter.

A bay Kombi ('68 to '79) would be out of the question if you don't already own one, they are just getting too expensive.
A T3 being rear wheel drive might be a good choice if they haven't already followed the T2 price spiral.

Lombi's were popular for quite a while over here in Australia, the section where the sliding door fits cut out of a wreck and added in behind the front doors and either the added in piece panelled to remove the doors, or the original doors panelled in to extend the area behind the sliding door/s.

With a rear motor set up and the lengthened body, there would be a lot of room under the floor for batteries, where the fuel tank was for all the electrics and the weigh kept low and distributed between the wheels .....

They are all as aerodynamic as a block of flats, but they are still capable of holding a constant 130km/h with the 1800cc air cooled 4 cyl ..... running on LPG, 67 hp optimistically on a good day, the Gen 2 Prius transaxle puts out 80kw 50kw in original trim, driving the 2 motors would be a lot more and negate the 80km/h max speed caused by MG1 speed limit spinning in reverse to keep the ICE from being spun ....

T1 Terry

EDIT: I see what I did wrong there, fixed

[johu]

A Prius transaxle doesn't output 80 kW. Do you mean Leaf?

[T1Terry]

The Gen 2 transaxle with both MG1 and MG2 driving and the high voltage battery fed straight into the inverters, bypassing the buck/boost converter, 80kw is conservative. MG2 on its own develops 50kw in stock form, why do you believe MG1 couldn't contribute 30kw?

T1 Terry

[johu]

Power discussion here viewtopic.php?p=48256#p48256

It's not only the peak figure but also the low base speed

[T1Terry]

After a few posts back and forth with the Prius forum, I found a member there who also rebuilt Kombi motors and knows the '74 Kombis well and also the Gen 2 Prius. He believes the Gen 2 transaxle in standard form would be enough to drive a Kombi, they as close to the same weight in standard trim, so my '06 Prius Gen 2 with the extra weight of the 40Ah extended range in the rear should be a good comparison .... that climbed steep hills on electric only with only MG2 driving and spinning MG1 in reverse to stop the ICE being spun.

Now to decide whether to lock the planetary carries (ICE drive) to the case, so MG1 gains the torque increase via the planetary set, or weld the planetary set so MG1 and MG2 both spin at the same speed ..... I guess max road speed would be the deciding factor with MG1 limited to 10,000 rpm. A Gen 3 transaxle would be a better choice if going down the locked planetary path ....

T1 Terry

[T1Terry]

A bit more Google research, and the type 4 1800 motor that is in my kombi now, is quoted as producing between 49kw and 51kw (must have been on a very good day)
Watched the two videos and Johannes made regarding using the Gen 2 Prius in an Audi. Great to put a face to a name.

Had a chuckle in the first video where he mentioned it goes better down hill, just like a VW Kombi

With MG1 driving as well, I'm sure that will be plenty to get the Kombi running on electric.

Sorry for stealing your thread, I'll bugger off now and hand it back over

T1 Terry