Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

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mjc506
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
mjc506 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:13 pmIf you've still got your 'start' directly connected to 12V, that would explain why it went in to run mode and wouldn't stop.
I see.

So that starts the inverter, not the control board.
Ah, no, sorry. The inverter itself is fairly dumb, and will do what it's told (if kept happy with power, enable lines etc I think it'll try protect itself from over temperature too? not sure). Probably safe to treat it just as the 'power' module, with most of the brains in the openinverter board. The 'start' line being held high will be telling the OI board to keep trying to go into 'run' mode (ie, do all the precharge etc checks, and then start pushing pwm in response to throttle etc)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
Also bear in mind that with inputs disconnected (left floating) you'll be reading noise. Sometimes it'll look (to the main board) like all is ok on boot, other times it'll 'read' high currents, low HV, weird errors... With the main board powered but the inverter not powered (with 12V) you'll also get screwy inputs from internal resistances, capacitors charging/discharging...
Might be why my current sensors are angry occasionally. That or, if left at 0v, when it's expecting 1.65v center, must look like a maximum negative voltage.
My understanding is that the OI board reads the current sensor inputs on startup and assumes that whatever reading it sees is zero amps (a reasonable assumption probably - the contactors should be disconnected, so no HV. This may not be true if the system has just rebooted in a moving vehicle of course...) but if that '0 A' reading is too far away from 1.65V, it'll throw a "high current offset" error/warning (because the further away from 1.65V, the less 'range' and/or resolution is available). I think (but have not yet tested myself) that the Prius gen2 current sensors have (two, independent) outputs centered on 0V, swing both positive and negative. So need to supply the sensors with 1.65V as their 'ground', and then a simple potential divider on their output to keep the swing within 0V - 3.3V for the OI board. The 1.65V may be ok as a potential divider from the 3.3V supply, but might need to be more robust - using an opamp to buffer the voltage. Need to look into this (if you want to use the current sensors)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Make up a minimal set of connections between board and inverter (put 'start' on a momentary switch, or leave a flying lead so you can touch it to 12V
I've been using a flying lead out of laziness, and, leaving it connected. So, I'll just leave it disconnected until needed.
Sounds good :-)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
To start with, you want power and ground connections, and connect all the HW safeties to 12V.
Dumb question... What are the hardware safeties?

You mean the pre-charge? Just connect that terminal to ground instead of MNC (main contactor)?
No, sorry. the OI board has some inputs that disable PWM instantly without any software intervention. Argh! The through hole board does not have these! Sorry! And I also missed some other connections you'll need... see below
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Get the inverter and main board powered up with 12V (a car battery is fine, especially if that's plugged in to a charger too just to keep it topped up during testing - a low 12V will make everything more difficult).
I got a 12v 5a power brick last week to replace my 1a bench supply. But I notice, presumably due to the polarity protection diode voltage drop, I only get 11.3v on stuff now. I am apparently making everything more difficult with low voltage. I'll grab a lead acid instead.
You could bypass the diode (put 12V on one of the 12V outputs) but 11.3V should be ok if it's fairly 'solid'.
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Read values. You will get, generally, some noise on all the inputs.
Read which values specifically?

What inputs?

What should be expected for values or noise?

What am I doing with this information? What does it establish?
Just refreshing the displayed values on the web interface - just confirms that the web interface can pull some numbers from the OI board, and that some of these numbers (udc, throttle maybe, any analogue inputs) will change a little with noise - the actual changes will depend on local conditions and calibrations, don't worry too much about it is all.
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]As above, you don't need to, but I would be tempted to get an approximate calibration of the current sensors, if only to get rid of the warnings on the interface. But this may need some potential dividers etc (I don't have a gen2 board, but the schematics are on the wiki. The stm32 will be expecting an analogue voltage of 0-3.3V, with 1.65V resulting in a 0A reading. I think you would need to provide an external potential divider to convert the output from the current sensors to these levels. Plus it's generally more tricky to feed a fixed current through a sensor. But as above, not essential for sine firmware
I get the gist of it, but not in a way I'm confident to act on. Plus, I would like the current sensors to work, so, an actual solution would be best.

Digging up from this thread, Konstantin plagiarized Johannes' solution on his Gen2 board, but, that's a bit too complicated for me: viewtopic.php?p=11441#p11441

Arber discusses it somewhat (centering on 2.5v instead of 1.65, corrected/discussed later), and verbally describes the process: viewtopic.php?p=9031#p9031

Just below, Sirrocco links a calculator (referenced several times with annoyance in the future), that I'm sure works, but no one seemed to have success actually picking the right values with: viewtopic.php?p=9043#p9043

People post the circuits they tried that didn't work or that they struggled with, but don't document their proper end result. So, if an end result was reached, everyone reinvents the wheel regardless.

Again I get the gist of it, but, I only somewhat know what an OpAmp is, I don't think I have any in my salvaged parts pins (maybe I do, I don't know the common part numbers), I don't know exactly what to order, and shipping is so expensive I kinda want to order all my next batch of electrics at the same time, not 2 op amps.
I think, at this stage, ignore the current sensors for now, and just make sure you can get PWM and drive a motor. Johannes' solution will be the most likely to work, but there may be simpler ways, but this isn't what's holding you back (yet) :-)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]You should now be getting pwm from the board pwm outputs. Ideally check with an oscilloscope, but a multimeter should be able to see 'something' happening (maybe also read frequency)
Well, something is happening.

However, my HVDC is fluttering all over the place. It was at 100v, but it's fluttering between 5v and 50v. This is right off the variac's supply's DC terminals.

It's only a 3amp variac, and my smoothing cap is only 47uF (what I had around), so, maybe this is suffocating the smoothing capacitor a bit? Shouldn't be, the inverter's main power cap should basically be in parallel with it, no?
Do you have the pwm lines from the OI board connected with the inverter at this stage? I was aiming to check the OI board outputs with the inverter (and HV) disconnected) But either way...
Are you reading voltage with a multimeter or is that from a built in voltage reading on your supply? You may find that EMF from the inverter does some interesting things (touchpads on laptops can be quite susceptible and behave strangely sometimes while the inverter's switching :-) ) With no current drawn from the HV supply, there should also be no voltage drop, no matter the capabilities of the supply. And yes, the main cap should be doing plenty to smooth any draw.

The inverter should only switch if it has power, you're sending PWM to one of the motor inputs (MG1 or MG2) and you're sending 12V to MG1 or MG2 (or both) enable pins - 14 and 25 on the 32pin connector I believe.
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am ... I connected a lightbulb in parallel with the HVDC output. It's on, and steady. But the same terminals it's connected to are wandering hugely.
Parallel? Connect the filament bulb in series with your HV. With no current through it, there'll be no voltage drop across it, and it won't light. If lots of current flows through it (short circuit, fault, trying to drive a motor etc) voltage drop across it will increase, limiting current (hopefully preventing any damage) and it will illuminate (a nice visual feedback of 'current flowing').
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Send a 'stop' command
Well, fwiw, voltage stabalized back at 100v.
Good, some the board and web interface are working and accepting commands at least! :-)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Yes, that set of parameters does include udc offset and gain (which are hopefully pretty close to what you've got).
Indeed, they are.
Excellent, gotta be a good sign!
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Now connect up the PWM outputs on the board to the PWM inputs on the inverter
Oops, had those from the start...
[*]Connect some HV (direct to the bus is fine, highly recommend some current limited supply - either a bench PSU or similar, or a battery with a filament bulb or oven element connected in series. You don't need massive voltage, 12V will do)
Oops, had it at 100v the whole time.
Ah well, no odds. Still getting weird effects from your HV voltage reading?
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]The inverter should be making a whistling noise - this is the IGBTs switching
It might be so high pitch that I'm deaf to it (I've lost some upper range), but I don't hear anything.
~8kHz from memory, and not particularly loud.
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]With nothing connected to the inverter, you should have 0 current on the HV line (any bulb shouldn't be lit). If you have significant current, you have shoot-through (+ve and -ve IGBTs turning on simultaneously) which should be impossible with the gen2 inverter...
My kill-a-watt knockoff says it went from ~5w on the variac input to 7w with no bulb on the HVDC, just the 3 on the phase outputs. So, sounds good.
Good :-)
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Motor next. Connect it up!
I'm too chicken, can't I test with the bulbs first and see them, I dunno, power up and flash around?

I'm not certain what use there was in having the bulbs in there. Just to be a litmus test for whether current would be flowing through them (bad) or not (good)?
Yes, bulbs should work fine. I guess they're a good visual, and naturally limit current, so a good test (compared to a motor, which does nothing until it suddenly starts spinning and throwing itself around the bench... good point :-) )
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am I tried the first part of the motor procedure, spinning at 10hz with the lightbulbs... I could see a warbling voltage on the phase outputs, but no power was ever drawn to the bulbs.
Hmm, that's a shame :-( Voltage on the outputs is good, perhaps it just wasn't sending enough current to light the bulbs (ampnom)? Did you see any movement on your killawat?
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Power up, start, set fsplispnt/ampnom. You should be able to get the motor spinning by adjusting ampnom and fslipspnt - see the wiki. This may not work if your HV supply is too weak, but hopefully you'll at least be able to feel something while spinning the shaft by hand
...

Whelp, I lifted the motor up to the desk, removed the lightbulbs, and powered the HVDC off of a car battery (with narrow leads I could grab to disconnect as "fuses"). I can measure 12.6v on the HVDC inverter input terminals... but nothing happens. Nothing happens when it's supposed to be spinning at 10hz. No voltage on the phase outputs (so, it's not just that it can't move the motor, nadda is being sent). Twisted the shaft with my fingertips, can't detect anything different than off.

Tried setting my "udcmin" to 10v. No change.

Far as I can tell, nothing different with the setup than when I had the bulbs instead of the motor phases.
Sorry, I forgot to mention udcmin. Not sure if 'manual run' checks that, but setting it really low is another potiential obstacle out of the way. Output voltage may have disappeared due to the low impedance of the motor (compared to the bulbs), especially with the lower HV? As above, try increasing ampnom?
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am Following the wiki ( https://openinverter.org/wiki/Schematic ... _the_motor ), I'm not sure how to apply the context of the motor I'm using.

"'So for a DC bus voltage of 350V, a nameplate frequency of 60Hz and a nameplace voltage of 200V you get fweak=60Hz x (350V/1.41)/200V = 74.5Hz"

My test motor is the smaller of the two ACIMs from a forklift.

It says:

Image

Now, my DC bus, is that my test bus? Do I have to keep changing this every time I change my test setup?

Else, let's say DC bus is 100V.

Nameplate frequency is 85hz.

Nameplate voltage is 33vac.

So...

"fweak" = 85hz x (100v / 1.41)/33 = 363.2hz?

... but do I care what my namplate voltage was? Since, I'll be running the forklift motor at, I dunno, at least 200v?

Likewise, do I care what nameplate frequency was?

Or, is this exactly the purpose of this configuration - that we'll be running motors at way higher voltages than spec and need to account for that?

... Doesn't really matter, since even the simpler 10hz spin doesn't work.
Disclaimer - I've not played with an induction motor.
So, back to basics (and apologies if you know all this!). With a DC brushed motor, a particular motor will spin at a particular speed when connected to a particular voltage with no load. That speed is determined by the applied voltage, and the construction of the motor (characterised by 'Kv', rpm per volt). Kv is affected primarily by the magnetics in the motor. An example - two identical 'perfect' (no friction etc) motors, but one has stronger magnets inside. Apply 12V to each, and the motor with the stronger magnets will spin slower. A spinning motor also simultaneously acts like a generator, and when not under load, will accelerate until the back emf generated by it spinning equals the applied voltage (hence no current flows, so it stops accelerating and continues at it's current speed. A stronger magnetic field produces a higher emf for a particular speed, so it reaches that equilibrium at a lower speed.

AC motors are "the same", just commutation is done electronically instead of mechanically. So, for a particular HV DC bus voltage, even if you have direct control over the frequency, the motor will only spin so fast (and probably fail to run if the frequency is too high). Like you say, you're supplying a much higher voltage, so you'll be able to get a much higher speed out of it :-) And we can also do some more magic - by applying current to the three phases in a particular way, a component of the resulting magnetic field will actually counteract the magnetic field from the stator (which is, in turn, induced by the magnetic field from the rotor.... I said 'magic' for a reason, my head hurts!), so effectively weakening the internal magnetic field, increasing the Kv of the motor, so it'll spin even faster! This is field weakening. If you don't need the motor to spin faster than its 'base speed' (DC voltage x Kv, but you also need to account for load) then you don't need to worry about field weakening, but it will help at higher speeds, and that's what the wiki is taking you through. Those parameters do change based on the HV voltage, but you also set a 'udcnom', which is the bus voltage you're using to set these parameters, and the OI board will adjust those as the HV voltage changes.
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am
[*]Hopefully by this point, you'll have confirmed that the board and inverter are both working and capable of spinning a motor. And gained a bit of confidence?
Nope, never got a motor to spin.
:-( Sorry
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:46 am Confidence? Ehn, just in the certainty of having less vague instructions, yes, that helps a bunch. Haven't made much progress otherwise.

I could rig the variac to spin the motor, but I'm still to chicken to try it, if the 12v didn't do anything.

Thanks, btw, you and others, for taking the time to assist.
[/quote]
I think you're nearly there,and might get light bulbs 'spinning' (or the motor of course) with a bit more ampnom. I'd aim for a low frequency (the slower it is, the easier it is to see the 'spin'), and gradually increase ampnom. I don't have exact numbers for you, as I didn't use lightbulbs and went straight onto a hacked up alternator motor, and on a different inverter... but with a 24ish V 'HV' bus (two car batteries in series) and think I was getting movement around 10 - 20 ampnom. But it will depend on the inverter, your HV bus voltage, what lightbulbs you're using... try changing ampnom and seeing what happens. Worst you can do is max out your variac :-)
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:19 pmI think, at this stage, ignore the current sensors for now, and just make sure you can get PWM and drive a motor. Johannes' solution will be the most likely to work, but there may be simpler ways, but this isn't what's holding you back (yet) :-)
Good, I will procrastinate that failure for later then.
Do you have the pwm lines from the OI board connected with the inverter at this stage? I was aiming to check the OI board outputs with the inverter (and HV) disconnected) But either way...
They stayed connected the entire time.
Are you reading voltage with a multimeter or is that from a built in voltage reading on your supply?
Multimeter, but it's functionally the same thing.

Variac --> FWB --> Smoothing cap --> Output terminals.

Multimeter is on the output terminals.

I get a steady 100v on the multimeter until I turn on the inverter, and then it's anywhere 0-50v jumping all around. Leads for the multimeter are kinda draped across the inverter though.
Parallel? Connect the filament bulb in series with your HV. With no current through it, there'll be no voltage drop across it, and it won't light. If lots of current flows through it (short circuit, fault, trying to drive a motor etc) voltage drop across it will increase, limiting current (hopefully preventing any damage) and it will illuminate (a nice visual feedback of 'current flowing').
I had 3 lightbulbs connected in delta across the phase outputs.

This is a 4th lightbulb that I connected in parallel across the HVDC for 2 reasons:

1 - just as a visual indicator of what was happening to the voltage (which, suddenly measured 0-50v and constantly wandering instead of 100v). If it was flickering or fluttering or pulsing, I'd know that something funky was going on with the inverter choking out the variac.

2 - As some form of steady load smoothing, in case the capacitor was acting up. It's 60 watts of load that doesn't change.

Instead, the bulb stayed lit steadily, with no apparent change when I'd turn the inverter on or not. The voltage on the multimeter kept fluxuating.

As did the voltage on the phase outputs.
Yes, bulbs should work fine. I guess they're a good visual, and naturally limit current, so a good test (compared to a motor, which does nothing until it suddenly starts spinning and throwing itself around the bench... good point :-) )
Too late, motor's hooked up anyways, not room for both on the bench and I don't really want to pick the motor up twice.

I'm confused about how to use the lightbulbs to test this.

Earlier you said that no power draw, with the lightbulbs connected, was good. How do I test with the lightbulbs connected, and what should I expect them to do?

It all blurs together, but I think I went through the whole procedure with the bulbs before I swapped out for the motor, I never got them to illuminate in any way. Maybe I wasn't aggressive enough with my ampnom?

What is... ampnom? Says it's a percentage. Well, my current limit I think is still set to a default of 5000+- amps. So, even ampnom of 1 would be 50amps?
Hmm, that's a shame :-( Voltage on the outputs is good, perhaps it just wasn't sending enough current to light the bulbs (ampnom)? Did you see any movement on your killawat?
Nope, never on anything I did or tried yesterday with anything. Generally, +2 watts when the inverter was on, but that's it.
Sorry, I forgot to mention udcmin. Not sure if 'manual run' checks that, but setting it really low is another potiential obstacle out of the way. Output voltage may have disappeared due to the low impedance of the motor (compared to the bulbs), especially with the lower HV? As above, try increasing ampnom?
If I did a sloppy job of setting up my 'udcgain' and 'udcofs', would that cause lower voltages to not work? Suppose instead of zero at zero, I was getting 15v, and only using a 12v HVDC supply, would that confuse it?

I can't actually set 'udcgain' properly, integers only, so I have to fudge some things. Actually, I forgot I can set it precisely by command, I'll go through that again tonight.

Still, I'm pretty sure I tried with 100+ volts and got nothing.

How high am I increasing ampnom to? Pretty sure I gave it 100 with fslipspnt at 10 and... nothing with bulbs or motor.

The procedure sounds like you're later testing the motor to maximum torque, which, sounds like a bad idea for my poor unfused and unlimited 3amp variac.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Nothing better to do tonight than just redo everything.

Spoiler: Same result as before.

- Threw a 12v 5a power supply to power the board to free up my 120v 1a bench supply.

- Reset 'udcofs' and 'udcgain'. I was wrong about earlier, the sample config uses 327 for udcofs, I had to use 512. But 3.78 for udcgain matched perfectly.

- Set my bench supply to 100v, it might get choked out (max 1a) but safer than frying the variac.

- I can hear a high pitch whine from the inverter when it's on. Just barely.

- After leaving it all on and a few reboots, I managed to avoid ALL errors. No overvoltage. No Precharge takes too long. Somehow no currentlim warnings. Clean.

- Setting Fweak to 10, Fslipspsnt to 10, and ampnom on anything from 1 to 50... does nothing. And I don't mean that the motor doesn't spin, I mean there is not one single milliamp of draw difference between ampnom at 1 and ampnom at 50. When the inverter is running (started), I'm still getting 0-50v on the motor phase outputs (multimeter set to AC, I don't have my scope here and I'm not confident using it)... but seemingly... ZERO current flowing. None.

- Ran out of things to try, tried connecting pin1 on the 12v DC-DC to 12v... nothing. Doesn't make any voltage between the extra connector and inverter case as it's supposed to. This should be pretty independent of anything else on the board, and it too failed. Just mentioning it because, it too would be powered from the HVDC and it's not doing what it's supposed to with that either.

It's peculiar to me that I'm getting fluxuating voltage on the motor phases (seems like proper signal), so there's not a missing connection, I'm just getting zero current through there.

Is there perhaps something I should change or modify, parameter-wise or hardware-wise, with my current sensors that might be causing this? Some setting where it's only sending 20mA when the inverter turns on instead of... anything? Perhaps something Prius specific in the programming?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by johu »

You need to find out where you loose the PWM signal. I suggest you test this with boost 0 and fweak 100, ampnom 1, fslipspnt 1 so that you get a nice 50/50 square wave.
Then test on board before it goes into the transistors (don't know the schematic by heart) you should see 1.65V on the 3 PWM lines PWM1H, PWM2H, PWM3H.
Behind the transistors I think you should see 15V/2 so about 7V. If it gets that far and the inverter isn't outputting anything you either have a bad connection to it or MSDN (MG2)/GSDN (MG1) isn't pulled to 12V
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

johu wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:14 amYou need to find out where you loose the PWM signal.
I don't think I'm losing PWM signal. I think it's just not sending any power.

When I turn on the inverter, I get what I presume is PWM down the output-to-motor phase wires, fluctuating voltage.

But, in lack of anything better to try, won't hurt to try.
I suggest you test this with boost 0 and fweak 100, ampnom 1, fslipspnt 1 so that you get a nice 50/50 square wave. Then test on board before it goes into the transistors (don't know the schematic by heart) you should see 1.65V on the 3 PWM lines PWM1H, PWM2H, PWM3H.
Github for project: https://github.com/damienmaguire/Prius-Gen-2-Inverter

PCB: https://github.com/damienmaguire/Prius- ... %20PCB.pdf

Looks like the 3 resistors would be an easy place to poke a multimeter lead.

Image

I'm testing... voltage?

AC or DC voltage?

Between those 3 points on the PWM line and... Ground? 12v? Each other?

See how many ways there are to get this simple instruction wrong? :P

I presumed I'd be testing AC voltage, between ground and the edge of the resistor. But, I got zero. DC voltage, zero. I also tested zero volts on the motor phase wires.

I cranked the Ampnom to 100, and on DC volts I measured 0.36v between the transistor legs and ground. And the usual waffling about 0-50v between motor phase wires. Measuring AC volts got zero.

If instead I was supposed to test on the phase output pins (the terminals that you connect to the inverter harness), with ampnom at 1, those test 14.9v to ground, and 3.6v to the 12+ rail (on a 11.3v supply). Same deal but if I crank ampnom to 100, those terminals to ground are now 7.34v, and to 12+ rail 3.98v. This is all DC still. On AC, they test I think 15.9v to ground.
Behind the transistors I think you should see 15V/2 so about 7V.
Well I did get a 7v DC signal on the output, but with ampnom at 100 and that's the transistor output, not the before the transistor, so I don't think that counts.
If it gets that far and the inverter isn't outputting anything you either have a bad connection to it or MSDN (MG2)/GSDN (MG1) isn't pulled to 12V
Well, I connect the 12+ rail to pin #25. Which is right below pin #9 (the first of the phase wires for MG2). It's right there.

I dunno, here's more idiotproofing, photos of my janky setup for everyone following along at home:

Image

I also connect FLT to pin 27 (fault signal MFIV). Which, I think throws a fault if you disconnect it, rather than connect it?

I suspect it's not hardware, I'm doing something wrong, there's just not an easy way to find out what obvious thing I've done that someone with better context would not have done.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by PaulUdrea »

Hello EV enthusiasts from all around the world. Greetings from Toronto, Canada.
First, I would like to thank Johannes, Damien and the rest of the team for their work and information made available to everyone. Very impressive achievements.

I am at the stage of FOC tuning but hit some snags:

1. Could not find the menu for adjusting fslipspnt and ampnom. I am using version 5.13. R-foc
At the web interface, Parameters, section: Testing is showing: manualiq & manualid.
If I type set fslipspnt 3 in the Send Custom Command field, I get: unknown command. Same for ampnom.
I tried to change the mode to 5, i.e. opmode = sine, just to see if the Testing menu changes to flsipspnt and ampnom, but it didn’t work.
2. The WiFi module disconnects randomly. When powered up, the 3 LED lights illuminate as shown in Damien’s and Johannes’ FOC video, all works fine for a while then, it doesn’t refresh, or the spot values are not shown anymore.
Johannes suggested to check the pins at the WiFi connector and maybe bend them a bit to improve the contact. Did that, worked for a while, then the symptoms reappeared. If I disconnect the power (12 V) at the VCU then reconnect, the WiFi works for a short time only.

I am using Prius Gen 2 inverter and motor, with Johannes’ VCU controller.

I can post more information later, but for now, I cannot progress if I cannot access fslipspnt and ampnom.
If someone has the time to guide me, would be very appreciated.
Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by johu »

Not 100% sure which procedure you're referring to that uses fslipspnt, but I'm sure there is one. As a matter of fact to have those parameters you need to flash the "sine" firmware found here https://github.com/jsphuebner/stm32-sine/releases and later flash back the FOC firmware

Very annoying with the wifi module, would still insist the problem is the connector. Try slightly bending horizontally towards each other (so pin 1 and 3, towards each other and again pin 2 and 4) if that's not what you've already done.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by PaulUdrea »

Thanks Johannes for the prompt reply,
In regards to fslipspnt and ampnom, this is what Damien tested in open loop mode (FOC tuning video). Then Zookeper sent a screen shot-screen showing these 2 commands in the Testing field. After seeing the screen-shot I started to think that there must be another version that has the commands.
In regards to bending the pins, this is probably the only direction I didn't bend them.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

PaulUdrea wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:14 pmthis is what Damien tested in open loop mode (FOC tuning video).
I think you're posting in the wrong thread.

This is the thread for Damien's now-deprecated Blue Pill-based through-hole component board that looks like the picture I took a few posts up.

I think what you bought instead is Johannes' Prius Gen 2 controller?

This should be the correct thread for you: viewtopic.php?t=701

As I recall, peculiar limitations with the Blue Pill board and/or the knockoff STM32 chip onboard make it incompatible with the FOC software, or perhaps just synchronous motors? Or maybe there was a workaround for that? I'm not sure, I only grasped part of that context. In any case, it was a big part of why this development path brickwalled.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by PaulUdrea »

True Matt, this is what I bought. This explains the mismatch between my post and your posts above.
Thanks for pointing in the right direction.
Cheers,
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:06 am
DC volts, to ground. But you should get readings on AC too.

With the OI board in 'manualrun' mode, ampnom 1 and fslipspnt 1, you should get a ~50% duty cycle PWM from the 3 bluepin output pins. Could you 'scope those to make sure? (A multimeter should read ~1.65V on the input side of those resistors (the other side to the arrows) but looking at the pwm would be 'nicer')

If you've not got PWM out of the bluepill... hardware failure perhaps? (unlikely to affect just the pwm outputs though I'd have thought) Or there's something else that the software isn't happy with!
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:12 amWith the OI board in 'manualrun' mode, ampnom 1 and fslipspnt 1, you should get a ~50% duty cycle PWM from the 3 bluepin output pins. Could you 'scope those to make sure? (A multimeter should read ~1.65V on the input side of those resistors (the other side to the arrows) but looking at the pwm would be 'nicer')
Ahh, the *other* side of the resistors. See, Johannes specifically said: "Then test on board before it goes into the transistors". He obviously meant as it came out of the blue pill, not after the resistors. Smart people can forget how to be as dumb as the people they're helping :p. So, I tested on the traces immediately before the transistors. Lacking understanding, I can only be as literal as code.

I knew that digging up the board layout and posting a precise diagram would come in handy.

The *other* side of the resistors... Measured 1.55v-1.63v when 'ampnom' was at 100, it's a little lower, around 1.50v when ampnom is at 1.

So, I guess, hurray, my software works, bluepill isn't fried, and PWM is getting out of the machine.

I'm not even sure where my scope is, I haven't used one without a copilot since I was a teenager. Would an audio cable and a detailed sound recording from Audacity work at these frequencies? [Umm, lemme just try frying my audio card... ... answer is... I have to turn my mic recording level down to 1%, so, it's probably really not happy with me... but... "Yes"]

Same clip, just 4 different zoom levels. This is just one of the phases.

Image

...

So... does that help diagnose what it is?

Else, umm... what could I test next?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

Ah, excellent! I didn't actually expect it to be much different each side of the resistor to be honest, not sure if that's 'expected' or not (will the transistors draw that much current through the resistor, anyone? I don't know)

Still. Confirmed that the software and bluepill are working, and the OI board is happy to 'run'. Good! Looks like Audacity didn't sample quick enough to get a 'pretty' pwm wave, but the output does look 'right' (If you do want a cheap 'scope for this sort of thing, a cheapy lht00su1 clone can do digital and analog, and works with the 'pulseview' software)

I would... check the resistors (DC resistance, just to check they're somewhere close to the specified resistance and properly soldered - so check from the bluepill pin to the transistor leg with the power off), are the transistors soldered the correct way around? (They don't match the silkscreen, but there was an errata on this I think?) Possible the transistors could have failed too I guess, but unlikely. You'll have already confirmed that one leg of each transistor is connected to the bluepill through the resistor. Another leg should connect to ground. With the OI board and inverter powered up with 12V (but not running), you should get ~12V (referenced to ground) on the remaining leg, which should be the one that goes to the inverter U/V/W pwm inputs. You should be able to see pwm on these pins too (while the OI board is running) - not with your sound card, it'll clip. I guess you should see ~6V on a multimeter?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:34 amLooks like Audacity didn't sample quick enough to get a 'pretty' pwm wave, but the output does look 'right' (If you do want a cheap 'scope for this sort of thing, a cheapy lht00su1 clone can do digital and analog, and works with the 'pulseview' software)
Yeah, sampling rate wasn't great on Audacity. Which is odd, considering it's well within audio range and waveform you'd want to replicate.

The thing about having a big old vac tube scope that you don't have room for on the bench, is, it's an event to pull it out. I think with a smaller one I'd be more inclined to poke around and get more comfortable with, lower barrier to curiosity.
I would... check the resistors (DC resistance, just to check they're somewhere close to the specified resistance and properly soldered - so check from the bluepill pin to the transistor leg with the power off),
960-980Ω

The schematic: https://github.com/damienmaguire/Prius- ... ematic.pdf

Indicates 1k ohm resistors, which I used, and confirms measurements:

Image

...

And in other news, I found this on the same page:

Image

So, those are all on this board, and I populated them. So maybe that was spec'd on an early assumption and they're wrong?
are the transistors soldered the correct way around? (They don't match the silkscreen, but there was an errata on this I think?)
Short answer: yes.

I soldered them to match the silkscreen. There was no documentation linked about it other than to have read every post in this thread where it was noted that there was an error, but yes, the silkscreen is a typo. So I tried to desolder them but it was lifting pads so I stopped, cut the legs half way, and flipped the transistors and soldered them back on correctly. Including one leg that sheered off right at the black part, which I kind of got solder to hold and then glooped bondo onto because of how fragile it was (what I had at the time).
Possible the transistors could have failed too I guess, but unlikely.
All 3?
Another leg should connect to ground.
Confirmed, zero Ω.
With the OI board and inverter powered up with 12V (but not running), you should get ~12V (referenced to ground) on the remaining leg, which should be the one that goes to the inverter U/V/W pwm inputs.
Confirmed, ~14.88v on each transistor (with 11.3V as the power rail).
You should be able to see pwm on these pins too (while the OI board is running) - not with your sound card, it'll clip. I guess you should see ~6V on a multimeter?
Confirmed earlier. I need to crank ampnom to 100 but I got 7.34v to ground (3.98v to the +12 rail).

Actually, trying again now, worked fine with ampnom at 1, still got 7.34.

...

And there I am, testing U, V, and W phases, and when I get to the third one, I hear a "tunk" sound, and then my power supply is plummeted from 100v to 3.2v and from 47mA, to 1000mA (it's max).

I move a bit and the power supply goes back up. I poke the phase again,"tunk", and the power supply plummets. WTF.

- I poke around at the transistor I was testing, wiggling it, seeing if there's a bad connection... not that that would explain the other 2 phases not working, but... no. No change.

- I quickly rig up my Variac supply, hoping I'd be able to see the motor move, I leave a 60w light bulb in series just in case. ... Nothing happens. I poke around at that phase line, nothing happens.

- I switch back to my power supply. Nothing happens. I poke, nothing happens.

- I start jiggling wires. Every time I bump the Forward wire, powersupply gets loaded down. It's a brand new jumper wire, but okay. I replace the jumper wire with a gator clip, much more solid. Nothing happens. I replace the pin that goes into the 12+ supply, nothing changes. I replace the pin that goes into the Forward terminal, nothing changes. I leave it disconnected and connect it after booting. Nothing changes. I switch back to the janky jumper wire, wiggle it a bit... power supply loads down. WTF? It *requires* a questionable wire?

- I leave the room for 5 minutes. I leave things running, same as I have for hours at a time before. It's all current limited.

- When I get back I smell burnt electronics. Oh no. Oh god. What happened? What did I ruin? I shut it all down. I sniff around everything, but everything smells a tiny bit burnt, but not a lot. I look around for burnt components, don't find any. But the burning smell is getting stronger. Where is it coming from? Is something on actual fire? What's smouldering? It's actually strongest next to the motor... which had at most 3 watts through it.

Image

False alarm.

It's a USB powerpack with a damaged cell that I was recharging normally using the cable after pre-charging to where it would recognize it. 7 hours ago. It was on the far side of the motor. Apparently it chose that moment to just... melt that transistor. Cell is actually fine, the charging board just crapped out. What are the odds?

- I leave put the questionable wire back on, and try again. Won't work at all anymore, no matter where I poke or wiggle. Great, I've ruined it.

- I bump the board with my hand... power supply loads down. I bump it again, power supply loads down.

- I switch back to my variac, set ampnom to 1... nothing. Set my ampnom to 1.1? Loads the variac down to 60w (bulb in series). "Tunk" sound is coming from motor when power is applied. Sometimes I can hold it in the sweet spot for 10 or 20 seconds.



- O... Okay. I recheck all the wires. Nothing's out of place or loose. I try plugging and unplugging each wire one at a time, nothing changes.

- I disconnect the light bulb limiter, and tap the power lead a couple times. Some things are hissing (variac brush maybe? relay maybe)? Nothing's moving, my Kill-A-Watt is slow to respond but I saw it at 1488w and I'm sure it was higher. That's 12A on a 3A variac, so, I didn't do that much. In retrospect I guess this was slamming the inverter's capacitor since I'd hardwired the run relay and precharge wasn't gonna protect me. Motor never spun though.

- While on 60w limited, I think the voltage was around 88v instead of 100? I get 0.4v across the phase lines, for whatever that's worth.

- I still haven't figured out what there is about smacking the board that makes it connect, but I guess the next step for me is to scrap these jumper wires and wire it up more solidly. I didn't get a wiring harness with my inverter, so, I kinda need one side of them anyway to connect to the inverter, but, maybe I'll cut the jumper end off one, strip it, and actually screw it into the terminals on the control board side.

... And then maybe try a car battery as my HVDC? See if I can get the motor to spin at all?

...

It's progress of a sort, anyway.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

I'd count that as progress!

A car battery or two as HVDC means you don't have to worry about hurting your variac (and less risk of shocks while you're wiggling wires!), but you'll need to provide some fault protection to start with at least (fuse, or keep your series lightbulb or similar)

I have had some rather flaky croc clips in the past (not a terrible surprise being the cheapest thing I could find online...). Those 'dupont' wires are normally ok, but they do rely on a decent crimp being made so entirely possible that there's a dodgy connection (or two!) there somewhere.

One concern - you said you could hold it in the 'sweet spot' for a few seconds. Did the bulb stay illuminated for those few seconds? (A series bulb should flash as the bus capacitor charges, but then go out. Although will start to illuminate again as you try to spin a motor with much current)
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:51 amI'd count that as progress!
I'll take stunning partial failures as success. Eventually I'll have made all the mistakes and there will be no choice left but the correct way.
A car battery or two as HVDC means you don't have to worry about hurting your variac (and less risk of shocks while you're wiggling wires!), but you'll need to provide some fault protection to start with at least (fuse, or keep your series lightbulb or similar)
Well, I think I couldn't spin the motor because the light bulb was limiting the current.

Not sure what I could use that would limit the current usefully at low DC voltages while letting enough through. Maybe a space heater? At 10% the voltage I'm going to get 10% the current, which, for any 1500w device is going to be like... 15 watts. Maybe a bit more because resistance when cold is nonlinear.

Maybe as a "fuse" I'll use a chunk of 14g copper wire over a cheap ceramic dinner plate. That'll melt at, what, 40-50 amps? Well, or I guess some junkyard actual car fuses, that would be less stupid.
One concern - you said you could hold it in the 'sweet spot' for a few seconds. Did the bulb stay illuminated for those few seconds? (A series bulb should flash as the bus capacitor charges, but then go out. Although will start to illuminate again as you try to spin a motor with much current)
The bulb stayed on, because I left the inverter on, trying to spin the motor. Soon as any connection was established it would "tunk" again.

Otherwise the bulb was off.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

Ah, that's all good then :-)

Basically, the bulb is a great 'safety' when you're starting to make sure that you don't have a HV short (two sides of an IGBT bridge switched on at the same time perhaps, failed bus capacitor, a cable laying across the bus bars... :-) ) but if your happy that the bulb is out with HV on and not trying to spin the motor, you're probably safe :-) The gen2 inverter is great as you can't turn on both sides of the IGBT bridges at the same time!

For up to ~36V as a HVDC bus, a 'real' auto fuse should be fine. Much above that, you'll want something physically bigger (to quench any arc). A length of copper on a ceramic plate probably isn't a bad option actually (although you'll want to stay well away from it with 'proper' HV) or you can get DC rated MCBs or fuses designed for solar.

I should note that a fuse blowing won't necessarily protect the inverter (back emf from a spinning motor can damage IGBTs or the bus cap if there's no battery to dump energy to (but an induction motor should turn into a lump of iron) - note this also applies to your variac, so avoid regenning when using that) but will hopefully prevent fires in the event of a major fault. You may consider that close supervision and removing power to be an acceptable solution during bench testing.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:30 pmThe gen2 inverter is great as you can't turn on both sides of the IGBT bridges at the same time!
Indeed.
You may consider that close supervision and removing power to be an acceptable solution during bench testing.
Yes, just like I did yesterday, when an unrelated device let the smoke out while I was gone.

...

- I took all the little wire stubs and replaced them with proper square pins that fit snuggly. Then I hooked up a car battery charger (will be current limited). I set the proper udcmin/udcmax/udcsw ... Nadda, no power draw.

- I tried jiggling and wiggling and plugging and unplugging everything, shaking the board... nothing.

- I tried running the board without the Fault, UDC, or MG2 enable wires connected. ... no change or change in errors except with Fault disconnected it triggers STOP - OVERCURRENT error.

- I threw it all to the side and replaced it back with my power supply... set the udc stuff back. ... nothing. No power draw.

- I measured the PWM outputs, they're at 7.34v like they should be.

- No errors, or sometimes a warn for hicurrent, but no stops.


I'm kinda out of ideas. I don't know what else there could be that I'm missing, that was fixing itself earlier by moving the board around. I've triple checked all the wires. I yanked out all the relays and their wiring and the variac, so I guess it'll only run in manual mode now but at least there's less stuff rubbing around.

Aside from cutting wires right off the inverter and soldering them directly to the control board, I'm out of ideas, I can't even replicate yesterday's temporary and temperamental successes.

It's gotta be something between the control board and the inverter, right? If I'm getting 7.34v on each of the PWM phases, that's all there can be, right?

What else could be telling the inverter not to do what it's told?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Just trying to squeeze more diagnosis out of the rock that is my limit understanding...

With inverter running:

fweak = 10
fslipspnt = 1
ampnom = 100

And backstabbing the inverter plug itself...

On PWM lines I get:

Pin 9, U = 6.8-7.3v (wobbly)
Pin 10, V = 6.8-7.3v
Pin 11, W = 6.8-7.3v

On pin 12, capacitor voltage = 1.44v.

On pin 25, MSDN (MG2 shutdown) = 11.22v (of an 11.3v supply)

On pin 27, MFIV (fail/fault signal) = 6.66v (??? that one's odd, is that normal? Schematic shows it just goes through a resistor and to Pin 1 on the Bluepill. "PB12", as "MG2_PWM_Inhibit_33", it gets 3.18v to the bluepill pin on the far side of the resistor).

And the 12v power wires to IGCT and ground.There's nothing else connected between the two.

The 120vdc connected to the bus bars on the inverter.

On the Spot Values section, "dir" says "forward", confirming that the direction pin is correctly connected to 12v+.

I also have my two throttles connected, but those should be irrelevant in manual mode.

...

So all my control board wires are getting into the inverter wires. What else am I missing?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

After a few trips to the junkyard this week, I was remotivated to keep working on this.

... but still stumped.

I replaced all the connection pins for whatever that was worth, re-tested. Same deal. When I power on, I get another 15mA of draw, but never the big current pulse.

Can't think of what it could possibly be. PWM is getting to the inverter. Why won't it go? And, what about my tapping on the board was making it at least flicker some real current draw last week?

Maybe I've set something wrong and by bouncing the board it removed some obstacle and made it normal again?

*shrugs*... trying not to give up on it but I don't know enough about its operation to troubleshoot.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by mjc506 »

It's weird. It's possible that the inverter itself is faulty I guess?

Only other thing I can think of at the moment - have you got the 'enable' pin (either MG1 or MG2, depending which you're using) tied to +12V? Have you tried Ground instead?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by SciroccoEV »

Simplify, simplify, simplify. Break the problem down into the smallest units and test each one methodically.

Each half (MG1, MG2) of the power module is made up of three half bridges.

Each half bridge has a single gate control signal with an internal pull-up. When the bridge is enabled, one of the transistors should be on.

Test that and that you can change which transistor is on with the gate signal.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by johu »

Yes, couldn't agree more. Put away that control board for now and get acquainted with the inverter.
Connect 12V to the DC bus, pull MSDN (for MG2) to 12V and connect a 12V bulb between DC bus positive and any of the three phases. Now it has to light up if you wired up MSDN, control ground, and inverter logic power correctly. No point in trying anything else if this does not work!

IF this worked, connect the 12V bulb between DC bus negative and any phase and pull the according control signal low. Now the bulb must light up on the given phase. Again, no point in continuing if it doesn't work. Report back exactly on these two tests and nothing else.
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

johu wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:23 amConnect 12V to the DC bus, pull MSDN (for MG2) to 12V and connect a 12V bulb between DC bus positive and any of the three phases.
So that I don't misinterpret, to be clear, someone please confirm this is exactly what I'm testing:

Image

... and, that will work with no control board? Just wiring the bulb between the phase output and 12v+?
Now it has to light up if you wired up MSDN, control ground, and inverter logic power correctly. No point in trying anything else if this does not work!
What about the inverter fault wire?

- 12v+ to i9
- Gnd to i9
- Gnd to pin 16 in i10
- 12v to HVDC+
- GND to HVDC-
- Bulb to phase output and 12v+
IF this worked, connect the 12V bulb between DC bus negative and any phase and pull the according control signal low.
- Where is the according control signal? Like, pins 9, 10, or 11 on the 32-pin i10?

- How do I pull it low? Connect straight to ground?
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Re: Toyota Prius Gen 2 Inverter Controller

Post by SciroccoEV »

Right at the start of experimenting with this inverter, I simplified.

Lacking a mating half for the 32 pin connector, I did what Damien did and separated the loom into one for the inverter IPM (intelligent power module) and another for the buck/boost IPM. I now had individual wires I could extend as needed to connect to my development board and could ignore the buck/boost entirely.

I had to go back to the Prius manual to work out what you were referring to.

The two pin connector (I-9) with red/black wires is an ignition feed and ground. Power that from a 12v bench supply. I shall refer to this as the system supply.

You don't need the bus capacitor for this test, so just remove it.

Connect a seperate power supply, sufficient for powering the indicator bulb you itend to use, to the HV+ and HV- terminals direct. I shall refer to this as the bus supply.

It's helpful if you use the connection names and/or function, as well as the pin number.

MSDN, motor (MG2) shutdown, Brown wire, pin 1 on the IPM, or pin 25 on the 32 way I-10 connector. This needs to be connected to +12v on the system supply.

Connect your inidcator bulb between one of the phase terminals (U, V, or W) and HV+ on the bus supply. By default, the lower transistor in each half bridge is on when the IPM is enabled, so the bulb should light on all three phases.

Find the PWM signal for each phase, these are;

MUU (Blue/Black) pin 18 on the IPM, pin 9 on I-10

MVU (Blue/Yellow) pin 19 on the IPM, pin 10 on I-10

MWU (Yellow/Black) pin 20 on the IPM, pin 11 on I-10

The second letter in the designator indicates which phase it corresponds to.

The voltage on these connections should be similar (or I recall a little higher) than the system supply. This is the internal pullup.

For whichever phase you have the indicator bulb connected to, connect the corresponding PWM signal for that phase to system ground.
The bulb should go out, but if you swap the bulb connection from HV+ to HV-, it should light again.

Repeat for all phases.
Prius_Gen_2_Layout.jpg
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