Jaguar battery porn XXX

Jaguar / Landrover hardware hacking
arber333
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Post by arber333 »

Jack Bauer wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:21 am Sorry Arber I got pulled away as usual. Would you still have the bms boards?
Yes i still have them. 6x plastic cased BMS slave boards and one alu cased master or control board. I can also send you wiring for them.
I did take DC contactors and ISA shunt out. I need them for my Chademo controler. I hope that wont be a problem.

If you want i can package everything in a box and send it to you with Europarcel like last time.
I will take some pictures when i bring everything together...
Also i can send you some of connectors that were attached to the cell blocks. Might help you to connect to your cells.

I know you will put it to good use.
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Jack Bauer
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Post by Jack Bauer »

Thanks Arber:)
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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EV_Builder
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Post by EV_Builder »

I found a good source i think with a nice story:
When deciding on the right battery cell, the choice fell on a 58-Ah pouch cell. The deciding factors were the positive properties in terms of performance, energy density and life cycle. The battery pack is designed as a 108S4P configuration. There are 108 cells connected in series and four in parallel. The battery consists of 36 modules containing 12 cells per module, and a total of 432 cells. The rated voltage of the battery is 389 V and has a capacity of 90.2 kWh. The total energy density is 149 Wh/kg. The battery pack can deliver 358 kW of instantaneous power for up to 10 s and has a continuous output of 110 kW. The high-energy pouch cells use the latest NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) technology and provide high volumetric and gravimetric density of 541 Wh/l and 257 Wh/kg.

The pouch cell consists of individual layers of anode and cathode material with an intermediate plastic separator. Although the cell construction is designed for high energy content, the pouch cell has a low internal resistance. The discharge rate is over 6C. Charging from 0 to 80 % State of Charge (SoC) is achieved with DC at 100 kW in just 40 min. The cells are designed for operation at extreme temperatures of -40 to +60 °C. Performance is reduced at the lower and upper temperature limits to prevent cell damage. Within a module, the cells are welded together at the tabs.
https://autotechreview.com/technology/p ... uar-i-pace

6C ....check the authors 8-)

Maybe i found my battery bricks....
Converting an Porsche Panamera
see http://www.wdrautomatisering.nl for bespoke modules.
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EV_Builder
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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arber333 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:46 pm
Jack Bauer wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 pm Arber, did you ever get comms with the bms working?
No, after innitial observation and testing the wiring and Rover version of ISA shunt i never tried. I think i am out of my depth on this, that is why i offered you those BMS units.
In any case i had to split up the cells to fit them in my car so original BMS is not really an option. I am using my own design protecting the cells at top and bottom end with two daisy chain OR loops through my DUE control.
@Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
Converting an Porsche Panamera
see http://www.wdrautomatisering.nl for bespoke modules.
arber333
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EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
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EV_Builder
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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arber333 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:20 pm
EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
Ok I'm interested to know too so if either you or Damien can check would be interested :)
Converting an Porsche Panamera
see http://www.wdrautomatisering.nl for bespoke modules.
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FJ3422
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by FJ3422 »

arber333 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:20 pm
EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
Can you please post the pictures of the BMS-master / slaves here ?
Anyone who has some more information on the BMS used on the iPace bricks ?
rob1772
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Post by rob1772 »

Love the work you are doing here. It's good to get into the guts of things to improve our understanding.

You mentioned earlier that the modules use LG 3.7V 60AH HW001 cells? Is this still the current understanding?
Reason I ask is that I'm trying to piece together the technical spec for these module cells (in absence of any known datasheet)

Do these specs listed below here match up with what you have found?

Nominal Voltage: 3.7V although I have also see 3.65 and 3.6 listed (Jaguar now state in the owners manual that it is a 388V (nominal) pack therefore with 108S pack that gives nominal 3.6V per cell)
Max charge current: 60A
Nominal capacity: 60000mah
Net weight: 850g
Internal resistance: 1m(ohm)
Discharge current (continuous) 120(2C)
Plus discharge current: 300(5C)
Cutoff charge voltage: 4.2V
Cut-off discharge voltage: 2.75V

Thanks
arber333
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That would all be true. But i would not go to the edges of SOC. I use cell from 3.0V to 4.08V and that is it. Everything else i can confirm.
rob1772
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Post by rob1772 »

Thanks for confirming. Is there anything else you are able to add such as advice on temperature compensation or voltages of when balancing should start / stop, temperature derate for both charge and discharge - basically anything you're got configured for these cells within you BMS :)
I'm trying to piece together a useable profile to configure an Orion 2 BMS.
arber333
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To quote Auto tech review on more specific data:
The battery pack is designed as a 108S4P configuration. There are 108 cells connected in series and four in parallel. The battery consists of 36 modules containing 12 cells per module, and a total of 432 cells. The rated voltage of the battery is 389 V and has a capacity of 90.2 kWh. The total energy density is 149 Wh/kg. The battery pack can deliver 358 kW of instantaneous power for up to 10 s and has a continuous output of 110 kW. The high-energy pouch cells use the latest NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) technology and provide high volumetric and gravimetric density of 541 Wh/l and 257 Wh/kg.
I was not aware they are 58Ah cells, but so are those from Audi E-tron which are similar model.
If you recalculate those claims... 358kW / 4P = 89,5kW for single string. Then you further divide by 108 cells and 3.65V per cell to get 227A per cell. This is 10s rating of 3.9C and single cell can withstand 1.2C load indefinitely. That is 110kW system load with cooling in place.
The lifetime goal of ten years is achieved, inter alia, by limiting the SoC. The usable range is 0 to 96 % and is monitored by the battery control module. The I-Pace battery has been subjected to rigorous testing to ensure maximum reliability and safety throughout the vehicle’s service life. The battery was subjected to temperature shocks between -40 and +85 °C. Between +25 and +80 °C, the absence of corrosion was detected with high humidity of 70 to 95 %. All legal crash tests were successfully completed, including drop tests from 4.9 m height on concrete floor.
Thermal runaway is real danger with those new low Vanadium content cells. I think industry just realized that.
I have provoked thermal runaway with cell layer damage only stabing them through and not keeping the nail in the cell. Of course also with nail pushed through the cell connecting all the layers! What is concerning is that it seems cells will overheat very easily if emptied and thermal runaway is a real concern. I would advise no fast charging or fast draining without some cooling system. Battery core temperature needs to be monitored.
Otherwise i see a charging knee at 3.95V upwards where balancing becomes effective. I NEVER discharge cells below 3.0V!
Whenever i experimented with undervoltage cells started to overheat. Furthermore i had two cells in paralell and it seems one of them dropped to 0% SOC and went into reversal. It started to drain the second one. Within minutes the second one heated up. When i tried to charge them i could charge the second one but it quickly got drained into the first one. In the car that would be reason for thermal runaway.

And one advice: If you keep split pack, have one fuse on positive line inside the rear of the pack and one fuse in the front pack to split them up. This can prevent total loss if cells in front would melt the cables in the car shorting the rear pack also.
m.art.y
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arber333 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:01 pm What i finally got was cells in configuration of 2P. To connect them i will have to make copper blocks and bolt them with M5 to the original contacts from behind.
Arber, are these modules easy to split in 1s4P configuration? Would there be any boltholes on the cell busbars to then connect them in series to make 7s?
arber333
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m.art.y wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:52 pm
arber333 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:01 pm What i finally got was cells in configuration of 2P. To connect them i will have to make copper blocks and bolt them with M5 to the original contacts from behind.
Arber, are these modules easy to split in 1s4P configuration? Would there be any boltholes on the cell busbars to then connect them in series to make 7s?
I would imagine the same way i did it. Boring 5mm holes required new drill and good oak pad on the other side to absorb the drill impact when it went through the contact copper. But it is a lot of work and lot of nerves...
Why would you want that? They are so tightly packed in 3s4p config it is a shame to disturb them. Knowing what i know now i wouldnt try again.
Even If you want to specificaly get 1s4p due to packing limitations i would advise you to just stick to original setup and try to reconfigure your box. Its much easier to setup cooling, much more effective...
m.art.y
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by m.art.y »

arber333 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:49 pm I would imagine the same way i did it. Boring 5mm holes required new drill and good oak pad on the other side to absorb the drill impact when it went through the contact copper. But it is a lot of work and lot of nerves...
Why would you want that? They are so tightly packed in 3s4p config it is a shame to disturb them. Knowing what i know now i wouldnt try again.
Even If you want to specificaly get 1s4p due to packing limitations i would advise you to just stick to original setup and try to reconfigure your box. Its much easier to setup cooling, much more effective...
Just thinking about possibility to use in 24v or 48v configuration as energy storage. Ideally they would need to be 7s for that purpose. So would have to split not all, but some of the modules to make 7s. What are your thoughts on that? Tesla modules are also 6s but people are successfully using for storage somehow.
arber333
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m.art.y wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:21 pm
Just thinking about possibility to use in 24v or 48v configuration as energy storage. Ideally they would need to be 7s for that purpose. So would have to split not all, but some of the modules to make 7s. What are your thoughts on that? Tesla modules are also 6s but people are successfully using for storage somehow.
Why 24V? 48V is so much better.
I am using Volt cells 12S3P for 48V configuration. So you would just have to setup 3s4p + 3s4p + 3s4p + 3s4p and parallel other bank in same configuration... I consoder liion 12s a bit on the low side though. Inverters are setup for lifepo (pb) cells and they respond well to 16s packs. Liion 16s pack i never tried...
m.art.y
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Post by m.art.y »

arber333 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:35 pm Why 24V? 48V is so much better.
I am using Volt cells 12S3P for 48V configuration. So you would just have to setup 3s4p + 3s4p + 3s4p + 3s4p and parallel other bank in same configuration... I consoder liion 12s a bit on the low side though. Inverters are setup for lifepo (pb) cells and they respond well to 16s packs. Liion 16s pack i never tried...
What is your inverters voltage range? If the inverters voltage range is from 42v to 59v then you can't really use all of the capacity from 6s configuration. When inverter cuts off at it's min voltage each cell would still be ~3.5v. What would you suggest?
arber333
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Well i am using this setup with 12s and i cutoff at 42V yes. But i only use 16kwh pack (even less used) and it is just enough for our house through the day and night. Optimal would be 25kwh and more.
True you would loose some with 12s, but what about 15s?
That would be 5 modules in series and 45V empty and 60V full. Dont forget i dislike charging this kind of cell over 4Vper cell.

My inverter runs on 420Vdc solar and 42V to 64V battery. So it would be best to use 16s lifepo or 15s liion.
m.art.y
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Post by m.art.y »

arber333 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 4:57 pm True you would loose some with 12s, but what about 15s?
That would be 5 modules in series and 45V empty and 60V full. Dont forget i dislike charging this kind of cell over 4Vper cell.
My inverter runs on 420Vdc solar and 42V to 64V battery. So it would be best to use 16s lifepo or 15s liion.
I agree, 15s seems like the best solution, thanks for that 😊
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