[WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

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[WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Hi all… first post… and as is customary, here’s my project…

Image

So, I’ve been working on my project for about 3 years, and thinking about it for much longer.

I’m converting a 2012 Caterham Seven to be an EV.

The project car was bought in 2022 as an unregistered ex-drift car - used for drift experiences and training people to drift. The car was in good mechanical shape but the bodywork had seen better days. This particular car was a 1.6L Ford Sigma based “SV” version of a Seven. The SV mean “Series Five” which is a 100mm wider than what most people would consider a standard, or S3 chassis’ed Seven. The extra width was a purchase requirement to give me more room for batteries.

I’m a semi-retired electronics and software engineer. Graduated in electronics and silicon design in 1989 and have run (by myself and with others) a succession of electronics and software product companies, some of which were listed on the London Stock Exchange (though that seems like a long time ago now! :-) ). Most recently, as well as running my own company, I was CTO of a Californian tech company that produced video communications services for people who are deaf and use sign language, we employed about 2,500 interpreters and ran over 40 call centres. I’ve also sat on a number of ITU and similar standards committees.

So, the first task I had was to get the car road registered in the UK. The theory being that it would be easier to get DVLA re-registration from a road legal ICE car rather than going straight to an EV conversion first and then having to get a road registration essentially “as new” as an EV. We’ll have to see if that works out.

So the car was made road legal in early 2023 (after a bit of back and forth with DVLA, of course) at which point I stripped the engine and gearbox out and sold them. The car was then 3D scanned and I started to work out what would fit.

Since then I’ve been looking at conversion options. The “volume” available in a Seven is extremely restricted and I decided I probably couldn’t take a pre-owned second hand drive unit and fit it in my car.

I should say at this point that my motivation is to show a conversion can be done with a Caterham and that it can deliver a fun EV version of a classic sports car. I helped run the Caterham and Lotus Seven club for 3 years and I’m still the coordinator of the EV Special Interest Group for the club. I’ve published a number of articles in the Club magazine about this project.

I am also thinking this could be a business if it can be made to be viable. I am environmentally concerned and have home solar (20 years) and a Tesla battery (5 years). We also drive an ID3 (took delivery on the first day they were available in the UK :-) ). I am in the fortunate position to be able to run this conversion through my company and to spend “appropriately” to get a prototype running. It can be “cost reduced” later.

Back to the car.

I’ve looked at a number of motor/inverter options and spent about a year working with a local motor supplier. But in the end it didn’t work out with them. They wanted too much money to integrate a motor and inverter together and so I started looking elsewhere about a year ago.

Since then I’ve landed on Helix as a motor/inverter provider and I hope to take delivery of both in a few weeks.

The other key part of my project is the sports car bit. I want it to eventually have the same sort of performance as a Caterham (my other Caterham is a 420 version - 210bhp and 200Nm, 0-62mph in about 3.8s, that I built in 2017). So I need about 150kW of motor and enough battery to feed it. That has led me to an architecture that’s probably a bit different (though probably not so much on these forums :-) ): 800V motor, silicon carbide inverter, 600A, 220V battery pack and a 200kW DC2DC converter. Is this unique… possibly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . So the DC2DC converter allows me to use a battery pack that can be switched around and to just reprogram the DC2DC converter to step it up to the 800V needed by the inverter/motor. It’s an extravagance… I know! :-) But it means I can have a 220V battery pack that will fit in the car instead of having to try and get to a minimum of 400V and actually 800V for the motor I’ve gone with.

The Helix motor is very compact, at 200mm diameter, and will fit in the transmission tunnel where the gearbox would normally fit. This also gives me more battery space in the front of the vehicle. I’ll also have a couple of modules in the rear where the fuel tank used to sit.

What else… I’m also planning to use DC charging (FOCCCI arrived today - yay) and hopefully not have an AC charging option (to save space and weight). At least not AC in the car… I’ll probably have an external AC to DC charger that sits at home. Talking of weight, the spreadsheets are telling me it’ll be just over 600kg (original car was 540kg), so probably more like 650kg I expect in the end.

You can see some blog posts about the project on my Blog at https://purplemeanie.co.uk or I’ve done a few YouTubes at https://youtube.com/c/purplemeanie. I have video and stills from the last two years that I’m working on publishing in the next few months.

Happy to take flak and answer questions :-)

John
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by Bratitude »

Wait what?

I don’t understand u want 150kw…. So u have a complicated mess of parts? Why?

“Weight saving”? which your going to negotiate with all the additional power electronics… and need more battery for the additional looses…

I’m curious on the numbers for this system architecture u choose
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by johu »

Well thumbs up first for the project in general :)

But same question - why do you choose an 800V motor with 200V batteries? Why not match them? The converter just adds losses, weight and a potential failure point
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Bratitude and Johu,
Thanks for the comments.

Yes, absolutely agree with your concerns.

But as you both are probably well aware, the n-dimensional problem to be solved is tricky, and it led me down this path. I couldn't find a motor that would fit, other than to buy new. Tesla (not a hope of fitting any of them), Nissan, Lexus, VW, Ford, etc etc. I couldn't find a way of fitting any of them into the chassis, and most of them don't fit by an absurdly large margin. Remember, this car weighs 500kg... put that into perspective with a Smart car at about 800kg and you start to understand how small these cars are.

[EDIT: I've visited a lot of Caterham dealers and garages, many of them have a chassis sat in the corner that they say is their "EV project". But when they start to look at it they can't get to a solution. It's why you don't see the EV conversion shops doing a Seven.... it's not simple (IMHO) [and of course there's probably not enough demand, I suspect]. There are Seven conversions out there, absolutely, I won't be the first... by a long way. But they all have issues (again IMHO) :-) ]

So, I had to go with something niche. I looked at many "new" motors but they were either too under powered or too big. I talked to a bunch of motor suppliers, UK, US, Chinese. I did find a small enough motor at one point and designed an epicyclic gearbox to fit it into the rear of the car as an e-axel type of design, but in the end the motor supplier wouldn't sell it to me. I found other motors but they were either "not for sale" or "not for sale to me". The other problem is that many motors come with the inverter attached. So even if I might squeeze a "motor" in, there was no way the inverter would fit as well - though I did look at remote packaging of some integrated inverters. The de-dion rear suspension on a Seven causes packaging problems at the rear (though I did consider belt drive at one point and did look at switching the rear suspension to an independent rear (IRS) but the supplier of that modification decided the major vehicle change regulations weren't worth the effort.

That's when I came back to Helix - I had talked to them a few years previously. But the only motor Helix had that would fit was an 800V architecture. The problem then became how to get to 800V. And that's something like 200S. I couldn't find a way of packaging 200S without significant chassis changes or very complicated battery boxes - I need to keep the chassis unchanged, partly so the cars can be returned to stock, but also to reduce testing in the UK (major vehicle change regulations). There are 200S solutions being used in cars, for sure, but they tend to look like 60kWh+ of storage, and I don't have anything like that volume to play with, or gross chassis weight to allow that mass of battery, even if I could squash it in somehow.

The other option for 200S is to design my own pack and go with much smaller cells, but that was getting out of my comfort zone. The electro-mechanical issues of battery swelling, cooling and construction was a step too far for me. The usual suggestion I get is to throw a Tesla pack in... but they're hilariously over sized for my project.

FWIW, Caterham cars tried to develop two Seven EV prototypes based around smaller cell tech (I was at the press launch in 2023) and they got very close. But they had no intention of getting them road legal and they had significant chassis changes and a very exotic battery architecture.

With the packaging I have at the moment, I can get to some vital statistics of 130kW, 32kWh, range: ~110miles, 0-60: 5s, top speed: 110mph, weight: 650kg.

Oh and you have to remember that my large DC2DC architecture is not very different to the boost tech that some production cars are using to get to 800V now, mines just a bit bigger. So someone there thinks the tradeoffs are ok ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . The DC2DC I'm using is designed for exactly this scenario (Brusa BDC668), for both BEV and Fuel Cell vehicles.

That's sort of the journey in a nutshell. But there's way more to it than that :-)

And I'm sort of where I am. Maybe there's another way of doing it. But it eluded me. I'm sure this post will spark a whole raft of... have you looked at XYZ.

Oh... and I'm enjoying the challenge :-)

I'll try and post some renders over the next day or two.

J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

... oh and another factor is flexibility.

The DC2DC converter gives me options to switch battery configurations around without having to nail an exact pack output voltage. If I can come up with a battery pack that will fit at say 300V or 500V etc, then the DC2DC lets me do that.

I agree that's a lot of complexity to add for that flexibility, but hey... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've had some senior EV development engineers (that work for very large EV manufacturers) crawl over my designs and they agree its a reasonable solution to the conundrum I have ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by snelly »

are you going to make it street legal ? , if so best to do it with the ICE first I would say
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Hi Snelly, Yep, That's exactly what happened, see:



(The renders in that video a very old now)

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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by snelly »

Great video, I've have for many years been thinking of converting my 7, but I think I would miss the power & sound of a super charged 4.8L V8 in a 750kg car :) it at least I converted my Jeep to EV :)
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by Zieg »

Awesome! I think I have seen these videos before, was even recently wondering how it was going. Glad to see you're still at it.
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by jrbe »

Welcome, very cool project.

Are you planning on building or buying the 200kw bidirectional DC-DC converter? That's a serious chunk of hardware.

For the size considerations you could cobble up 4x Hyundai HSG (hybrid starter generators, one at each wheel / CV and use everything in the middle for batteries. Or if you'd rather, go the axial / raxial motor route for each or just the 2 rear motors.
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

snelly wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:25 pm Great video, I've have for many years been thinking of converting my 7, but I think I would miss the power & sound of a super charged 4.8L V8 in a 750kg car :) it at least I converted my Jeep to EV :)
There are a few of us converting Sevens at the moment. It’s tricky to get a solution that makes sense and I totally get the “it won’t be the same” argument. I’m very much treating this as an experiment to see if it not just works, but does it make sense.

J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

jrbe wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 2:46 am Welcome, very cool project.

Are you planning on building or buying the 200kw bidirectional DC-DC converter? That's a serious chunk of hardware.

For the size considerations you could cobble up 4x Hyundai HSG (hybrid starter generators, one at each wheel / CV and use everything in the middle for batteries. Or if you'd rather, go the axial / raxial motor route for each or just the 2 rear motors.
I already have the DC2DC converter, it arrived a couple of weeks ago after a 3 month lead time. Though it actually took me the best part of a year to agree a purchase with Brusa, for them to get the device CE approved, for me to become a customer and for them to get devices from China and ship to me.

It’s a very impressive piece of kit! :-) It will also do low-side and high-side voltage and current measurement, so saves me a bit of electronics in other areas (though I accept there’s some wonky maths going on there to justify the device). I’m using the BDC668 but the BDC546 was a close call, though it wouldn’t deliver the high-side power I was looking for, it might be a good option for others though. They are not cheap though! Be warned! :-)

This is the BDC668 that I’m using…

https://www.brusahypower.com/portfolio/bdc668/

J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Zieg wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:33 pm Awesome! I think I have seen these videos before, was even recently wondering how it was going. Glad to see you're still at it.
Thanks for watching. Though I’m about 2 years behind on updates. I’m trying to get up to date now and should have videos coming out every few weeks (though I’ve said that before :-) ).

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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by muehlpower »

Can this DC2DC converter also be used as an OBC, perhaps with an additional rectifier? Then the additional weight for the charger can be saved
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

muehlpower wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:28 pm Can this DC2DC converter also be used as an OBC, perhaps with an additional rectifier? Then the additional weight for the charger can be saved
Hmm. My assumption to date has been no. But you raise an interesting point about using a rectifier. I don’t think there’s a configuration of the converter that will get from rectified 220V to my 220V DC pack voltage. And it would probably need the converter to be wired up the other way round. I will take another look though, thanks.

I am planning to use FOCCCI for DC fast charging into the high side of the converter. But that will get tricky as there’ll need to be a three way conversation between the BMS, FOCCCI and the DC2DC. I may need some sort of CAN babel fish mediating between the three, though I have been crawling over the FOCCCI code to see if it could be modified for my application. Others may have a view on that.

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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by johu »

Is the DC2DC set to a fixed translation ratio or fixed output voltage? If it's a ratio it should be pretty simple. Just divide the current the BMS allows by that ratio. CCS precharge voltage is the DC2DC converters output voltage.

Or another way to look at it: CCS charging is no different to regen (except it's a very long downhill ;) ). If you manage to govern regen, you can govern charging with the same numbers. I don't see a need to alter Foccci code as that also cuts you off from future development.
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

The DC2DC converter doesn’t run by multiples. It is configured to run in one a few modes…. High-side constant voltage, low-side constant voltage, constant current etc. Then you tell it the relevant target parameters.

Thanks for your thoughts on FOCCCI, I’ve maintained open source forks before and appreciate what a pain it can be, especially if things diverge.

It’s the mediation of the DC fast charger and the BMS that's making me scratch my head. The BMS needs to control the low-side battery pack but FOCCI is controlling the high-side voltages from the high-side road-side charger. I have some programmable CAN devices on the bus already and I may need to get one of those to mediate.

(BTW Johannes… thanks again for sorting out the short shipment of the ESP32 WiFi board the other day 👍🏻)
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by muehlpower »

Since only a maximum of 22kW is required for AC charging, the DC2DC converter is far from its maximum. The description states ”
Voltage range for full performance highside 450-850 V”, from which I conclude that lower voltages also work, only with limited power. You probably wouldn't even need to disconnect the motor inverter for AC charging, as it can easily handle the rectified 250V. With DC charging, the power can be fed in directly on the battery side. CCS goes down to 200V. The DC2DC then has nothing to do with it.
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

muehlpower wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 4:33 pm Since only a maximum of 22kW is required for AC charging, the DC2DC converter is far from its maximum. The description states ”
Voltage range for full performance highside 450-850 V”, from which I conclude that lower voltages also work, only with limited power. You probably wouldn't even need to disconnect the motor inverter for AC charging, as it can easily handle the rectified 250V. With DC charging, the power can be fed in directly on the battery side. CCS goes down to 200V. The DC2DC then has nothing to do with it.
Unfortunately the full data sheet says that anything below 450V on the high-side is invalid. So that knocks out any use of this DC2DC converter for AC charging, either single or three phase.

But good to know there are options for low-side connection to DC chargers. I've been meaning to get my head around DC charging for some time - it's definitely a hole in my knowledge.

Are there any good resources for learning about CCS?

[EDIT: I spent the evening asking ChatGPT (4o) about CCS, IEC 15118, IEC 61851, Powerline Communications and HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP)... amongst other stuff. It was even able to show me ladder diagrams of example communications between car and EVSE. Of course, I'm not totally sure if it was accurate, but it was a huge head start. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ]

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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by johu »

I don't think you need to worry about the intricacies of the CCS protocol. It is just a super stupidly convoluted way of controlling basically a very big lab power supply. You tell it how much current you want and at which voltage it should throttle. Two data items. And an extra one with the battery SoC to have a nice display on the charger screen.

It is no different to an AC on board charger, just that it lives outside the car, the AC connection is permanent and the power level is higher.

Say you want to charge at 50 kW.
You can connect it to the 200V low side and tell it to charge at 250A. Or to the 800V high side and tell it to charge at 62A.

That said, a "200V" battery, say 54 cells in series would really operate between 160V and 220V. Not all CCS chargers go down to 160V or above 500V. So it may be more universal to connect to the high side and set the boost converter to 450V or so for charging
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Ok, thanks Johannes. I like to understand the protocols I’m working with on a project and so I’ll probably keep doing a bit of research on charging, but appreciate that might be a bit of a luxury.

Lots to think about there on where it will make sense to inject the CCS.

Thanks again, J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by SuperV8 »

snelly wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:25 pm Great video, I've have for many years been thinking of converting my 7, but I think I would miss the power & sound of a super charged 4.8L V8 in a 750kg car :) it at least I converted my Jeep to EV :)
Haha - snap - well my 7 (Dax Rush) is a supercharged 4.6 V8! you have 200cc on me 8-)
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by SuperV8 »

Interesting project. What transmission/gear reduction would you use with the Helix motor? Would that also fit in the transmission tunnel?

Don't know how far down the road you are but just 'throwing this out there'!
How about dual motor setup?
Easy to meet your power goal with 2 small motors. Outlander motor/diffs are small, cheap and light and easily controllably with some basic CAN - so could you use one front and rear. There is space to mount a front diff in the 4x4 Dax Rush - so I would think you could fit a motor in the front of the Caterham especially as you'd need much less radiator/cooling.
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by purplemeanie »

Hi SuperV8,
SuperV8 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:32 pm Interesting project. What transmission/gear reduction would you use with the Helix motor? Would that also fit in the transmission tunnel?
So... I'm all about "don't get it right, get it running"... and in that vein phase-1 will be as simple as possible. And one of the simplifications is to take the output of the motor and feed it into the existing 3.6:1 differential.

Ideally, I need about an additional 2:1 - 2.5:1 between the motor and diff (and I've looked for other differential options but the Caterham diff is small and the only other option is a 3.9:1 which I may try in phase 1).

The consequence of not having the additional 2-ish:1 reduction is going to be a much reduced performance. But that's ok to get me into the DVLA registration process ASAP. I will need a new prop-shaft, but they're fairly easy to have made.
SuperV8 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:32 pm Don't know how far down the road you are but just 'throwing this out there'!
How about dual motor setup?
Easy to meet your power goal with 2 small motors. Outlander motor/diffs are small, cheap and light and easily controllably with some basic CAN - so could you use one front and rear. There is space to mount a front diff in the 4x4 Dax Rush - so I would think you could fit a motor in the front of the Caterham especially as you'd need much less radiator/cooling.
Well... that was a bout a year's detour for me. I spent a long time looking at a rear axle twin motor setup based around a SwindonPowertrain motor and Cascadia Motion inverter. I only have 200mm to fit a motor in the rear and the Swindon unit just about fit. I also designed an epicyclic gearbox to go fit on the output of the two motors (there's no room for any differential if the motor is packaged in the rear - Caterham did go this route (motor and diff in the rear) for their prototypes, but it needed chassis changes that I don't want to do).

I'll get to the ins and outs of all this in a video at some time... it was a big project that ultimately didn't go anywhere. In the end Swindon and Cascadia weren't really playing ball and it didn’t work out.
As for the outlander motors, I haven't looked for awhile, but by my calculations they wouldn't fit, either in the rear or down the transmission tunnel. I didn't look at front wheel drive.

J
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Re: [WIP] Caterham Seven - Putting the EV in sEVen

Post by SuperV8 »

Oh yes, KISS..
Direct drive into the 3.6 diff might have the driving force of using the ICE engine in 5th?
Which Helix motor have you looked at? If its = SPX177-45 is 150kw but has peak torque of 120Nm - so a max wheel torque of only 432Nm.
Assuming the 1.6 sigma torque is 150Nm (I think max is a bit higher at 163Nm) and if it has 5 gears (3.35:1 > 0.825:1 with 3.92 final drive), then first gear is about 1974Nm wheel torque. 5th gear is 484Nm wheel torque.

Outlander motor is just over 200mm dia - but you would have to add the transmission shape/dimension - but it has 195Nm max torque and 7:1 reduction so 1365Nm wheel force!
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... Drive_Unit

'thinking out load' One point regarding directly coupling a drive shaft to a motor output is, they generally aren't designed with any none constrained axle (prop shaft) forces in mind - so I would check with Helix if the output shaft/bearings are up to it?

Its a shame there aren't more compact & powerful OEM motors available - imagine if you could buy Lucid's tiny very power dense motor - or the Yasa but they seem to have gone for supplying supercars like Ferrari and Koenigsegg - they'll never sell one offs.
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