The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

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Cookie6000
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

Extremetaz wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:30 pm Howdy Cookie - Alibro got your distress call to me.
I have a couple of ZE0 BMS's here. Both functional at the point of removal.
Better to attempt the repair using Johu's 'parts' offer first rather than risk frying another one though would be my initial thinking though.
Hey, good stuff! Much appreciated
Yeah, going to pull it out next week and take a look and if it matches Johannes' BMS, I'll go the repair route and if not, I'll give you a shout for sure.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

Well, bit off the radar with this one!
In reality, I was balls out building the Audi, all the time in the world from May to September '20 when I finally ran out of money but managed to get a job but finished (almost) the build. Still no excuse for not updating here so here's a round-up of what I have done since the end of last year when I decided to partially strip the car apart with the aim of getting a working BMS. Firstly, I had to see how it handled the snow over the winter...
20210108_122951.jpg
FIrst up, as promised too many times, I got stuck into the new brake servo. Remove the old hydraulic system and slide in a tried and tested vac system with a servo from an 80 Cabrio, a UP28 Hella pump from a Jag, vac sensor from a Mk4 Golf, a vac reservoir from an A8 and finally a mosfet switch to do all the switching on and off, courtesy of Johu. All bench tested and then finally installed, it works a treat.
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After that, I went and tackled the job I had been putting off for ages and dropped the rear pack. Not too bad in the end and came out pretty handy. With that however came out the charger, rear HVJB and all the fittings. I have already committed to building a proper sealed battery box though in CAD and getting it made up with proper HV connectors and the like. Next was to retrieve the BMS and open it up... which was ugly. I must say, the box did a great job of keeping the magic smoke in though :lol:
20210608_224038.jpg
The plan, aside from swap the BMS for one less charred, find out what the hell happened and replace. I went back to where I had had multiple changes of heart when wiring up the voltage taps on the separate 4 module pack in the front and with a heavy amount of documentation found that yep... I had friggin mixed up 6 taps. Bugger me. While I was at it, I re-checked every tap in the rest of the pack so I was 100% before bottoming it all up again. As you can see in the pic above, I extended the rear pack wiring out after a couple of nights making up 2 x bms jumper looms so I could have the BMS in the boot.
20210608_220858.jpg
20210608_223305.jpg
I could have simply done a solder joint extension but had a few molex connectors and crimps so, went that direction. If anything, honed my crimping skills. As I was on a roll, I decided to tidy up some LV things up front that I had let go, like putting in some 80A fuses for the PS pump and between DCDC and 12v battery. I also put in a 12v isolator switch (see it in the bottom pic on the RHS) and a new safety inertia switch fitted to the bulk head to knock out the 12v power to inverter and VCU in the event of a shunt.
20210616_181312.jpg
20210623_222057.jpg
A few other things I decided to do also were to upgrade the messy DIY shielded HV up from for proper 50sq shielded cable from HVJB to front pack and from front pack to 4 pack. Really tidies the bay up and just gives me a another piece os mind I have brought the standard up a touch.

All this had me on a roll and was well chuffed after months of not doing anything due to work and family commitments. The day came to put it all back in. It looks brilliant! Re wired the BMS connectors, following all detail directions, to work with the later Leaf unit and plugged them all on, one... by one... 1, 2, 3, 4,, 5... FIZZ POP!!! Two or three little sparks rose from the board.... BOLL@CKS!

Long story short... I left it for 3 weeks. Just glanced at it when I passed by the car in the garage and then took the board to the bench. What the hell... when I tracked the damaged diodes back to the connector... it led me to cells (in around 73 to 80 in the front pack. What the hell?? Popped the lid. Continuity checked... everything... top to bottom. Perfect. CHin scratch. I then removed all the bus bars.

All the way along from Cell 96 back 3.98v, 3.97v, 3.98v, 3.99v......0v... 0v... 3.52v... Oooooh kayyyy. In a nutshell, for whatever reason, in the process of only 3 charge and discharges, with no BMS, three modules have shat themselves. Anyway.,... thanks to the OI and Course past pupils in the community, within the space of a day I had sourced 4 (yes 4... in case) new modules AND a replacement BMS... I'll use the one I popped for spares. So, it'll be front pack out, see what the hell happened. More than likely they suffered from voltage drop rather than an over charge. Interested to see if there was any swelling...
20210731_161053.jpg
On that bombshell, I hope to get the car moving again very soon as It's well overdue a spin.... Always carry protection kids. Always use a BMS
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by bobby_come_lately »

What a ballache! I hear the community is helping out though so hope you get it sorted soon.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by JaniK »

Very good warning for us who might want to quickly test without bms.. better to be slowly safe than sorry fast.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Alibro »

Great update mate.
When things like that go wrong it always knocks you back a bit but good to hear your pushing on.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by johu »

Argh what a hell to go through! I believe the damaged BMS must have discharged those modules. Or was it not at all connected? After I had popped my LBC I noticed increased current draw on the damaged channels. Leave it on there for months... well.

Also the LBC is very sensitive on loose connections. Forget to tighten a bus bar or cable, next time you charge current flows via the BMS instead of the bus bar. Pop.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

johu wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:57 pm Argh what a hell to go through! I believe the damaged BMS must have discharged those modules. Or was it not at all connected? After I had popped my LBC I noticed increased current draw on the damaged channels. Leave it on there for months... well.

Also the LBC is very sensitive on loose connections. Forget to tighten a bus bar or cable, next time you charge current flows via the BMS instead of the bus bar. Pop.
Yeah, I think you might be right there. I left the damaged BMS in for a week I would say. The area that initially went pop, took out some other circuitry, more than likely where the taps for these 0v cells lay. Anyway, onwards and upwards. When I take them out, I'll try see if they are recoverable. I have new bits ordered anyway so, We'll be rolling in no time.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

Seems like forever and in fact, it probably has. The 8e seemed to have a brief a successful few months and then went on hiatus. And it's been driving me mad.

The reason? Multiple. #1 is being back in full-time employment and #2 emerging out of the pandemic meant life including everything that comes with a family of three kids trying to make up for the time we were only allowed to do laps of the garden. Saturdays and Sundays once more became a busy frenzy of sport and activity related running back and forth and evenings getting everything else done that was not possible during the workday. Pretty much, the same as many out there! Just meant that all the jobs to fix the BMS and battery problems went well and truly on the back burner :(

The good news is, it is fully road legal!! It got its NCT (MOT) here in Ireland after only a few fixes on the wishbone's but was bloody over the moon when they passed it. It was the same place Damien got his checked so they were familiar but no favouritism :lol: . They were very thorough but once it was passed and docs handed over, they were all questions.
Screenshot (9 Apr 2022 18_25_48).png
Screenshot (9 Apr 2022 18_26_16).png
So, aside from that, new targets have been set! I have been asked by a couple of people to showcase the Audi at some summer events.... which means, arse in gear time :D I have learnt a phenomenal amount in my new role in AVA working with some amazing powertrain and battery engineers with a SHED load more knowledge than myself and already I have a plan for a new refresh of the HV and LV control systems in the Audi... when time permits :lol:

So, the plan? the issues? First off the bat is, well. The battery. If you remember, back in the day when I let the magic smoke out of the BMS, it looked like a scene from a Die Hard movie. On the back of that, I discovered I had wired the voltage taps wrong and once I had rectified that, I injured another BMS (only slightly - recoverable) when I did not notice that 3 modules had crapped themselves and were at pretty much 0v. Modules were replaced (thanks to Glyn Hudson) and balanced (with help from Paaa), I hooked it all up and a couple the chips began to... get toasty. Fffffffffffffriggin hell!!!!! What did I do? I rolled the car into the workshop and put a blanket over it. That was November 2021.

In early March this year, I took a courage pill, slapped myself in the face big Willie style and rolled it out into the sunshine and proceeded to take a recording of each cell tap. Remember - I still had no BMS to report back what was in there.
BatteryPackMarch.jpg
And there she was..... The Rear Pack... the pack I had never opened, taken apart, fiddled with - two big fat dead modules. Excuse me while a scream into a pillow for an inordinate amount of time. I rolled the car back into the workshop, found the blanket and draped it over the Audi once more.

The theory is, as BMS#1 died and fried, through all the multilayering of the board, it took out those 4 cells living happily on the far side of the board from the carnage opposite. It never clicked in my head to do a voltage tap check on the rear pack. I thought it was hunky dory. You live and learn.

Plan? Let's get this on the road again. What do I need? Three new modules because one other has gone below 2.5v for a prolonged time and I'm not happy with it and the other two for the obvious reason. That's a front and rear pack out job but, I'm resigned to it now and I know I can do it with help over a weekend. So that's, in a long way round, where I am. Apologies for the very very.... very tardy response time. I have been keeping an eye on things here but feeling totally crap at not helping enough in other people's projects, especially after the help I received. Just hope the videos I put up helped one or two people at least.

So people! Anyone got any Gen 1 Leaf modules in or around 90% SOH?? :lol:
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Alibro »

Good to hear your back at it Cookie. Chin up mate. At least you know what the problem is. ;)
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by vwbrady »

Welcome back! Oof, that's a rough discovery. I hope you get it sorted quickly. Good luck!
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by johu »

Oh I can relate to that. Super anxious about my battery, currently watching 20mV cell delta that also changes over SoC range. It is also good to read that deep discharging cells doesn't cause a fire. I was never quite sure with the NMC chemistry.

That Nissan BMS. Love and hate. It usually works well and I think it's well worked out. But then you get things like awkward power limits for reasons you don't understand. Or in case of a customers Volvo conversion keeps burning up channel 72, the split point of the front and rear pack. In those times you wish you had gone a custom BMS route.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Alibro »

Hi buddy
Hope you are well.
I was looking at this thread again and was wondering how you are getting on?
Also you probably are already aware but I only recently discovered it is dead simple to get your battery voltages from the Nissan Leaf BMS using LeafSpy?
You just need to connect the CAN wires from the BMS to an ODBII socket (I think I linked the two CAN systems but not sure it was necessary), plug in a suitable adapter https://amzn.to/3atmDuV Give it 12V, tell LeafSpy you are using BMS only and Bingo.

At the time I was testing I had the Leaf battery junction box and three temp sensors connected but I'm not sure this was necessary.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

Alibro wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:33 pm Hi buddy
Hope you are well.
I was looking at this thread again and was wondering how you are getting on?
Also you probably are already aware but I only recently discovered it is dead simple to get your battery voltages from the Nissan Leaf BMS using LeafSpy?
You just need to connect the CAN wires from the BMS to an ODBII socket (I think I linked the two CAN systems but not sure it was necessary), plug in a suitable adapter https://amzn.to/3atmDuV Give it 12V, tell LeafSpy you are using BMS only and Bingo.

At the time I was testing I had the Leaf battery junction box and three temp sensors connected but I'm not sure this was necessary.
Thanks Alibro!
Yep, still here but very little done. Lots going on outside of the shed but now I'm back from holidays, I have a plan to get the rear pack back in, new HV connectors to make it even easier to install, BMS is in the ether, waiting for me to puck it up plus other bits and bobs. As soon as I have it all hooked up, I have the bits too you mentioned to get LeafSpy working over an ODB unit. Just so hard to get going again! I'm committed now though. It needs to roll again in the next few weeks before I take it for another NCT (MOT). Want to get some videos up too with more than just "here's what I plan to do....".

List of things to do include:
  • Get Shunt talking to VCU
  • Update code to read shunt current/voltage data (as opposed to leaf inverter)
  • Update code to enable regen
  • Fit HV connectors and seal rear pack
  • Fit another HV fuse into rear
  • Install said rear pack
  • Balance existing and new cells (before pack goes in)
  • Single DIN 7" screen to run LeafSpy and/or TorquePro
Simple... just need the time and focus... :lol:
I do plan a rewire of the car, new battery packs, HVJB but that's all in CAD right now so, long term project. Just want to get some miles up on this before I venture down that path.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by vwbrady »

Welcome back, Cookie!

Curious why reading the ISA shunt is preferred over the inverter? I'm in the same boat and have considered just leaving it alone.

Regen? is this possible with our version of the Leaf VCU? I thought this was only enabled with Zombieverter.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Alibro »

vwbrady wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:43 pm Welcome back, Cookie!

Curious why reading the ISA shunt is preferred over the inverter? I'm in the same boat and have considered just leaving it alone.

Regen? is this possible with our version of the Leaf VCU? I thought this was only enabled with Zombieverter.
Agreed, welcome back Cookie but speaking of VCU's I thought I read somewhere a long time ago the Zombieverter software was going to work in our VCU.
Am I hallucinating?
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by vwbrady »

Alibro wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:48 pm
vwbrady wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:43 pm Welcome back, Cookie!

Curious why reading the ISA shunt is preferred over the inverter? I'm in the same boat and have considered just leaving it alone.

Regen? is this possible with our version of the Leaf VCU? I thought this was only enabled with Zombieverter.
Agreed, welcome back Cookie but speaking of VCU's I thought I read somewhere a long time ago the Zombieverter software was going to work in our VCU.
Am I hallucinating?

I've looked at the Zombieverter (STM32-vcu) Git Repository for whiiiiiile trying to figure our how regen is being accomplished. It's just WAY over my Mechanical Engineering head :?
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

vwbrady wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:43 pm Welcome back, Cookie!

Curious why reading the ISA shunt is preferred over the inverter? I'm in the same boat and have considered just leaving it alone.

Regen? is this possible with our version of the Leaf VCU? I thought this was only enabled with Zombieverter.
You get a whole lot more info from the shunt from a voltage and current perspective, especially seeing as though I don't have the Leaf current meter in place in the pack anymore. Having that can traffic too means I can display more in both run and charge modes on a screen in the car I think... that's my logic anyway :D

On the regen, james@N52E01 and me were chatting a few months back and reckon there are a few lines of code that can be put in there to put that right. We have both been so busy we just haven't got around to seeing if that is the case. Will let you know but yeah, I had planned to jump to Zombieverter at some point after I have the car moving again.

Not sure about your query Alibro about our VCU being able to cope. I would rather get the Zombie and go from there rather then try and squeeze more out of the Leaf VCU
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by vwbrady »

Cookie6000 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:43 am
You get a whole lot more info from the shunt from a voltage and current perspective, especially seeing as though I don't have the Leaf current meter in place in the pack anymore. Having that can traffic too means I can display more in both run and charge modes on a screen in the car I think... that's my logic anyway :D

On the regen, james@N52E01 and me were chatting a few months back and reckon there are a few lines of code that can be put in there to put that right. We have both been so busy we just haven't got around to seeing if that is the case. Will let you know but yeah, I had planned to jump to Zombieverter at some point after I have the car moving again.

Not sure about your query Alibro about our VCU being able to cope. I would rather get the Zombie and go from there rather then try and squeeze more out of the Leaf VCU
So one thing i love about our VCU is that it's just an arduino in new clothes and I can customize it to my hearts content - staying within the limits of the I/O. The Zombieverter is also very tempting for me, but I don't get the feeling that I can go into the code and customize it. Of course, it is just my ignorance causing this roadblock. For example, i'd like to integrate a Charge state control into the VCU using CAN + digital I/O, a VCU + SimpBMS partnership where the VCU controls precharge and the ISA shunt is communal.

VERY intrigued by the potential to get regen in the Leaf VCU. but also, with all the community support shifted to ZV, I will at least be going that route on future projects.
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Neyo »

Hello Fiachra,
After seeing your videos on YouTube, I wanted to do the same setup in my Audi 90 Coupe Quattro. I wanted to know if I can get a copy of the CAD design for the adapter plate or are you selling those adapter plates.

Thanks
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

Neyo wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:48 pm Hello Fiachra,
After seeing your videos on YouTube, I wanted to do the same setup in my Audi 90 Coupe Quattro. I wanted to know if I can get a copy of the CAD design for the adapter plate or are you selling those adapter plates.

Thanks
Hey Neyo
I have your Audi's twin in the next bay! Is yours the 2.3 20v saloon seeing as it's the 90? Where are you based? I may need to see if you have any spares for mine as I rebuild it :lol: . On the cad step file, absolutely. Now, there is a caveat that it will need some tweaking after but does fit. One or two of the bolt centres were slightly off but nothing a larger drill bit can sort out. I'll DM you.
20200408_115811v2.jpg
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by vwbrady »

An you luck with regen?

I've recently ordered an OI leaf board from Johannes and am going to probably switch over to that later this winter. Just seems like a better supported hardware option. Then maybe sell or repurpose the VCU to do other things. Or maybe another conversion I have in mind. (importing a VW mk3 golf estate)
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Re: The Audi 8e - Powered by Leaf

Post by Cookie6000 »

vwbrady wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:53 pm An you luck with regen?
Nothing yet I'm afraid. Very little time spent on the Audi. Hope as the nights draw in, I can spend more time out in the shed. Will post up any findings
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