Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
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Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I plan to use my Leaf motor with the original gearbox from my carso need to make a coupler. It looks like the Gen1 Leaf (2010 - 2012) and Gen2 Leaf (2012 - 2017) have the same spline size and pattern so this should be relevant for both, I cannot comment on Gen3 Leaf.
After reading many threads both here and elsewhere I ordered a clutch friction disk for a 1970's Fiat 124 which just arrived today Aisin DE-7FI.
It fits but there is a bit of play.
I also tried a Blueprint ADC43101 clutch disc from an unknown car and found it a bit loser than the Fiat disc even though on paper the diameter of the inner section is slightly smaller at 22.3mm (the Fiat's is 22.4mm) so the profile of the splines is critical too.
I've found and ordered a clutch disk with a 22mm profile so we'll see what happens and will update when tested.
I've also heard on this forum that when shrink fitted and welded into the coupler it will (probably) tighten a bit.
***** EDIT *****
I have decided to go ahead with the two friction discs mentioned above with both fitted to try and remove play.
This is a rough mock up of the coupler design. The main drive splines will be welded on the outside and the tensioning spline will be welded through holes in the coupler.
Copied from other posts later in this thread
Here are a few videos pulled from Zapatero's project thread and else where.
Suzuki Samuri
Porsche
Honda 1.4 petrol - Valeo 803530
Geo Tracker
Fiat Multipla 1.6 Petrol
1970's Fiat 124 Spider and Blueprint ADC43101. Jump to 3:55 for the friction disks. The design mentioned at the start of this video is NOT how I'm doing it. Concerns about balancing mean I'm having a coupler machined. Jump to 3:50 for the Friction disc stuff.
From what I've seen here it looks like the Fiat spider clutch disc and the Honda 1.4 are the closest fit but none are perfect.
The Leaf splines are approx 19.6mm measured from the top of the teeth, approx 21.6mm to the valley of the teeth.
After reading many threads both here and elsewhere I ordered a clutch friction disk for a 1970's Fiat 124 which just arrived today Aisin DE-7FI.
It fits but there is a bit of play.
I also tried a Blueprint ADC43101 clutch disc from an unknown car and found it a bit loser than the Fiat disc even though on paper the diameter of the inner section is slightly smaller at 22.3mm (the Fiat's is 22.4mm) so the profile of the splines is critical too.
I've found and ordered a clutch disk with a 22mm profile so we'll see what happens and will update when tested.
I've also heard on this forum that when shrink fitted and welded into the coupler it will (probably) tighten a bit.
***** EDIT *****
I have decided to go ahead with the two friction discs mentioned above with both fitted to try and remove play.
This is a rough mock up of the coupler design. The main drive splines will be welded on the outside and the tensioning spline will be welded through holes in the coupler.
Copied from other posts later in this thread
Here are a few videos pulled from Zapatero's project thread and else where.
Suzuki Samuri
Porsche
Honda 1.4 petrol - Valeo 803530
Geo Tracker
Fiat Multipla 1.6 Petrol
1970's Fiat 124 Spider and Blueprint ADC43101. Jump to 3:55 for the friction disks. The design mentioned at the start of this video is NOT how I'm doing it. Concerns about balancing mean I'm having a coupler machined. Jump to 3:50 for the Friction disc stuff.
From what I've seen here it looks like the Fiat spider clutch disc and the Honda 1.4 are the closest fit but none are perfect.
The Leaf splines are approx 19.6mm measured from the top of the teeth, approx 21.6mm to the valley of the teeth.
I need a bigger hammer!
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I have a coupler for sale designed for the leaf motor. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=569
Should have confirmation, in the next 2 weeks, If it works with the em61 motor as well.
Should have confirmation, in the next 2 weeks, If it works with the em61 motor as well.
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I do remember the Multipla piece was more wobbly. Even the VW part on the VW transmission has a little bit of play.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I'll bare this in mind thanks.Bratitude wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:15 am I have a coupler for sale designs for the leaf motor. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=569
Should have confirmation, in the next 2 weeks, weather it works with the em61 motor as well.
It might work out cheaper to use the part from the transmission but I was trying to avoid that. If I ever want to use the parts I've got to convert a front wheel drive car I might need it.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I did try this, I took the shaft out of the leaf drive , I did try a couple of engineering shops But to my disappointment they both said that the part was hardened steel which difficult to machine and if they could weld it the joint would be brittle.
I was going to go with Bratitude coupler, but I have since shelved my project
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I have access to another Fiat friction plate so I'm going to try it before making any decisions.
In a perfect world I would have a perfect coupler but I want to try this way first.
Here's another thought, has anyone ever tried using two friction plate centres welded together very slightly out of wack with each other to achieve a tight fit?
In a perfect world I would have a perfect coupler but I want to try this way first.
Here's another thought, has anyone ever tried using two friction plate centres welded together very slightly out of wack with each other to achieve a tight fit?
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Sissies I use a welded coupler in Polo since 7 years and many others are doing the same. The part is always hardened steel.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Well yes, but they forgot that they could temper it and then requench it to close to original hardness. Lot of fuss but it can be done. Probably it is a lot of work and they only deal in easy stuff. What you need is a "one man workshop" with an experienced mechanic. Hi will be able to do it for sure, because he will not think about it too much but get to work.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
It's difficult to assess play on video, but to me the spline profile looks like a worse fit than what I remember the Blue Print ADC43101 disc being, which is what I'm using. That's of course not a perfect fit either, though.
EDIT: "Using" in this case means daily driving for 35 000 km, moving a 1950kg vehicle, pretty much flooring the accelerator pedal at every stop light.
EDIT: "Using" in this case means daily driving for 35 000 km, moving a 1950kg vehicle, pretty much flooring the accelerator pedal at every stop light.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I don't know how to say this without stepping on some toes but here goes. While a lot of people have been talking I've been driving. Please don't be afraid to just try.
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I agree 100%., I'm in the process of getting my coupler made with a Fiat friction plate and will see how it goes.Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:05 pm I don't know how to say this without stepping on some toes but here goes. While a lot of people have been talking I've been driving. Please don't be afraid to just try.
Sometimes the pursuit of perfection gets in the way of achieving anything.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Oops, I spoke too soon. The friction plate my mate was going to machine for me is the wrong size. He's in England and I'm in Ireland so there was shum confusion.
I found one of these on Amazon for £24 so ordered it to see if it fits any better. If it is the same I'll return the more expensive one, then send it to him along with a Freelander friction plate to be machined.
Back to the question I posted earlier, Would it be worth getting two, cutting them a little thinner and welding them together slightly offset so the two together are a tighter fit. Am I fussing too much?
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Possibly, but on the other hand...Am I fussing too much?
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Great videos and a great idea for a coupler with rubber incorporated to help smooth everything. I may be looking into doing something similar
I don't think I'll be putting the same pressure on my coupler but I don't want to take the risk. Very interesting that he used two friction plates on each shaft as I suggested earlier.
I don't think I'll be putting the same pressure on my coupler but I don't want to take the risk. Very interesting that he used two friction plates on each shaft as I suggested earlier.
I need a bigger hammer!
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I may investigate having taperlock hubs EDM machined with the required internal spline.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
My Fiat Multipla 1.6 petrol splines seem to work just fine. Here was the first test fit. Yeah, I have not been doing any donunts yet (they will have to be in reverse ) but seems to work a treat.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Nobody has been able to break the coupler in the Grey Goose... I think this sums up the reality nicely;
Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:05 pm While a lot of people have been talking I've been driving. Please don't be afraid to just try.
This is a personal post and I disclaim all responsibility for any loss or damage which any person may suffer from reliance on the information and material in this post or any opinion, conclusion or recommendation in the information and material.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I'm pushing on with the Fiat 124 clutch disc and am planning to make the coupler in the same way as Arlin Sansome did in his video above.
Can anyone think of a good reason NOT to go this way before I spend money getting the parts waterjet cut?
I know some of the stuff I say here is wrong or stupid or both but I've been able to design the triangle shaped plates for the adapter and just need to see how much space I have before deciding on the thickness of them.
BTW if anyone wants the file for these triangles it's here.
https://www.tinkercad.com/things/cwan081AMlo
BTW I think the coupler Arlin used was a heavier duty one as he said it was from a BMW M3, the one I bought from Amazon "febi bilstein 02562 Flexible Disc for propshaft" has 10mm holes instead of the 12mm he mentioned and it is a bit smaller.
Can anyone think of a good reason NOT to go this way before I spend money getting the parts waterjet cut?
I know some of the stuff I say here is wrong or stupid or both but I've been able to design the triangle shaped plates for the adapter and just need to see how much space I have before deciding on the thickness of them.
BTW if anyone wants the file for these triangles it's here.
https://www.tinkercad.com/things/cwan081AMlo
BTW I think the coupler Arlin used was a heavier duty one as he said it was from a BMW M3, the one I bought from Amazon "febi bilstein 02562 Flexible Disc for propshaft" has 10mm holes instead of the 12mm he mentioned and it is a bit smaller.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I think i gave Arlin a hint with my Mazda coupler design which is NOT causing problems anymore ever since i welded another splines at the front...
https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... lopka-ven/
What he did is a legitimate DIY design and i think will be strong enough for what you need.
If you go hunting for records though you will need to find the machine shop that can make inner splines out of of tempered steel.
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Thanks, I definitely want to weld in two disc centres for the Leaf motor side so what I wanted was advice if the design is a good one.arber333 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 amI think i gave Arlin a hint with my Mazda coupler design which is NOT causing problems anymore ever since i welded another splines at the front...
https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... lopka-ven/
What he did is a legitimate DIY design and i think will be strong enough for what you need.
If you go hunting for records though you will need to find the machine shop that can make inner splines out of of tempered steel.
It's good that you say it should be good for a DIY design. My goal here is to build an affordable electric car with a repeatable design and without having to spend a fortune on local experts. The adapters will need water jet cut but that shouldn't be a big deal and now we have a design for them it will be easy for others to replicate.
There are a couple of reasons I wanted to make it using the BMW coupler instead of just welding the two disc centres into a bit of pipe.
1. I don't have a lathe so I wouldn't be able to machine the pipe to fit the disc centres. They are different diameters so either the pipe would need turned or the disc centres.
2. The idea of being able to reuse the Leaf side of the coupler and just get another adapter plate water jet to match whatever comes next is appealing. This motor may end up in another car.
3. I may be wrong about this but it looked like it would be easier to weld the disc centres to the triangle adapters and still keep everything straight than it would be with a pipe.
4. It looks like it will be easier to achieve two disc centres on the Leaf motor side with this design.
I need a bigger hammer!
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
For those in a market that doesn't have a lot of Fiat's driving around, early 90s Geo Tracker discs have the 7/8" 20 spline center. Which has the same fit to all these Fiat ones.
Here's an interchange table.
edit: this disc doesn't fit fantastic
Here's an interchange table.
edit: this disc doesn't fit fantastic
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Alibro wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:55 pmThanks, I definitely want to weld in two disc centres for the Leaf motor side so what I wanted was advice if the design is a good one.arber333 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 amI think i gave Arlin a hint with my Mazda coupler design which is NOT causing problems anymore ever since i welded another splines at the front...
https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... lopka-ven/
What he did is a legitimate DIY design and i think will be strong enough for what you need.
If you go hunting for records though you will need to find the machine shop that can make inner splines out of of tempered steel.
It's good that you say it should be good for a DIY design. My goal here is to build an affordable electric car with a repeatable design and without having to spend a fortune on local experts. The adapters will need water jet cut but that shouldn't be a big deal and now we have a design for them it will be easy for others to replicate.
There are a couple of reasons I wanted to make it using the BMW coupler instead of just welding the two disc centres into a bit of pipe.
1. I don't have a lathe so I wouldn't be able to machine the pipe to fit the disc centres. They are different diameters so either the pipe would need turned or the disc centres.
2. The idea of being able to reuse the Leaf side of the coupler and just get another adapter plate water jet to match whatever comes next is appealing. This motor may end up in another car.
3. I may be wrong about this but it looked like it would be easier to weld the disc centres to the triangle adapters and still keep everything straight than it would be with a pipe.
4. It looks like it will be easier to achieve two disc centres on the Leaf motor side with this design.
I just would not trust plasma cut disk for anything beyond the dyno. those a plates are not balanced. Cnc or lathe.
And the drive shaft yoke. again not meant for that rpm. arlins use case is fine. Anything beyond that is a big risk.
there are plenty of misalignment couplers out there. A few of us are using the rotex gs38.
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Thanks for this, It's the kind of response I was looking for when I posted.Bratitude wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:49 pmAlibro wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:55 pmThanks, I definitely want to weld in two disc centres for the Leaf motor side so what I wanted was advice if the design is a good one.arber333 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 am
I think i gave Arlin a hint with my Mazda coupler design which is NOT causing problems anymore ever since i welded another splines at the front...
https://mazdamx3ev.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... lopka-ven/
What he did is a legitimate DIY design and i think will be strong enough for what you need.
If you go hunting for records though you will need to find the machine shop that can make inner splines out of of tempered steel.
It's good that you say it should be good for a DIY design. My goal here is to build an affordable electric car with a repeatable design and without having to spend a fortune on local experts. The adapters will need water jet cut but that shouldn't be a big deal and now we have a design for them it will be easy for others to replicate.
There are a couple of reasons I wanted to make it using the BMW coupler instead of just welding the two disc centres into a bit of pipe.
1. I don't have a lathe so I wouldn't be able to machine the pipe to fit the disc centres. They are different diameters so either the pipe would need turned or the disc centres.
2. The idea of being able to reuse the Leaf side of the coupler and just get another adapter plate water jet to match whatever comes next is appealing. This motor may end up in another car.
3. I may be wrong about this but it looked like it would be easier to weld the disc centres to the triangle adapters and still keep everything straight than it would be with a pipe.
4. It looks like it will be easier to achieve two disc centres on the Leaf motor side with this design.
I just would not trust plasma cut disk for anything beyond the dyno. those a plates are not balanced. Cnc or lathe.
And the drive shaft yoke. again not meant for that rpm. arlins use case is fine. Anything beyond that is a big risk.
there are plenty of misalignment couplers out there. A few of us are using the rotex gs38.
It's interesting you think the dyno where Arlin was putting 700 phase amps through it (and planing higher) is a safer environment for an out of balance coupler than in a car. I'm not certain that is correct although I'm a rank amateur so not really qualified to comment. I do agree an out of balance coupler would be a bad thing and look forward to seeing him test it as the balance at high rpm was a concern.
So we have one for and one against, anyone else have any thoughts.
I need a bigger hammer!
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
Alibro wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:06 pmThanks for this, It's the kind of response I was looking for when I posted.Bratitude wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:49 pmAlibro wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:55 pm
Thanks, I definitely want to weld in two disc centres for the Leaf motor side so what I wanted was advice if the design is a good one.
It's good that you say it should be good for a DIY design. My goal here is to build an affordable electric car with a repeatable design and without having to spend a fortune on local experts. The adapters will need water jet cut but that shouldn't be a big deal and now we have a design for them it will be easy for others to replicate.
There are a couple of reasons I wanted to make it using the BMW coupler instead of just welding the two disc centres into a bit of pipe.
1. I don't have a lathe so I wouldn't be able to machine the pipe to fit the disc centres. They are different diameters so either the pipe would need turned or the disc centres.
2. The idea of being able to reuse the Leaf side of the coupler and just get another adapter plate water jet to match whatever comes next is appealing. This motor may end up in another car.
3. I may be wrong about this but it looked like it would be easier to weld the disc centres to the triangle adapters and still keep everything straight than it would be with a pipe.
4. It looks like it will be easier to achieve two disc centres on the Leaf motor side with this design.
I just would not trust plasma cut disk for anything beyond the dyno. those a plates are not balanced. Cnc or lathe.
And the drive shaft yoke. again not meant for that rpm. arlins use case is fine. Anything beyond that is a big risk.
there are plenty of misalignment couplers out there. A few of us are using the rotex gs38.
It's interesting you think the dyno where Arlin was putting 700 phase amps through it (and planing higher) is a safer environment for an out of balance coupler than in a car. I'm not certain that is correct although I'm a rank amateur so not really qualified to comment. I do agree an out of balance coupler would be a bad thing and look forward to seeing him test it as the balance at high rpm was a concern.
So we have one for and one against, anyone else have any thoughts.
If arlins dyno explodes, it’s doing it in a isolated location. It’s not a moving in a vehicle in public.
I’d rather have something explode when stationary, than when I’m moving at 120km on a highway. With traffic.
you can do a lot of things, and some of which are done by folks on this forum. Is it a safe methodology? No. dose it work? Yes.
Personally, looking at the full cost of making a coupler for the leaf out of clutch disks, raw material and machining made no sense to me.
it just made more economical sense to get a batch of custom couplers made. I didnt have personal access to a lathe big enough, or welding equipment capable.
machining down splined centres and interface fitting them in a rotex or love joy, is a safe way forward.
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: Which friction disk to match Leaf splines
I agree welded coupler is not optimal, but if you consider my EV is my prime mover to work i needed to get it working when my clutch shed splines. When such a case repeated in the course of 1/2 a year i went for the best available option. Also i knew a single clutch center will not support the weight of the coupler. So we welded two clutch centers and it worked. I am actually impressed that i could weld on the fine grained coupler casting material.Bratitude wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:55 pm Personally, looking at the full cost of making a coupler for the leaf out of clutch disks, raw material and machining made no sense to me.
it just made more economical sense to get a batch of custom couplers made. I didnt have personal access to a lathe big enough, or welding equipment capable.
machining down splined centres and interface fitting them in a rotex or love joy, is a safe way forward.
Well i will get my friend to build splined insert tube with dowel pin groove on the outer side from tempered steel. This could be then cut to length and inserted into machined coupler whatever flavour that might be. Before final installation you would still need access to lathe, but it would mean a lot less operation and everything would be balanced in center.