Jaguar battery porn XXX

Jaguar / Landrover hardware hacking
arber333
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by arber333 »

Jack Bauer wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:21 am Sorry Arber I got pulled away as usual. Would you still have the bms boards?
Yes i still have them. 6x plastic cased BMS slave boards and one alu cased master or control board. I can also send you wiring for them.
I did take DC contactors and ISA shunt out. I need them for my Chademo controler. I hope that wont be a problem.

If you want i can package everything in a box and send it to you with Europarcel like last time.
I will take some pictures when i bring everything together...
Also i can send you some of connectors that were attached to the cell blocks. Might help you to connect to your cells.

I know you will put it to good use.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by Jack Bauer »

Thanks Arber:)
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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EV_Builder
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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I found a good source i think with a nice story:
When deciding on the right battery cell, the choice fell on a 58-Ah pouch cell. The deciding factors were the positive properties in terms of performance, energy density and life cycle. The battery pack is designed as a 108S4P configuration. There are 108 cells connected in series and four in parallel. The battery consists of 36 modules containing 12 cells per module, and a total of 432 cells. The rated voltage of the battery is 389 V and has a capacity of 90.2 kWh. The total energy density is 149 Wh/kg. The battery pack can deliver 358 kW of instantaneous power for up to 10 s and has a continuous output of 110 kW. The high-energy pouch cells use the latest NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) technology and provide high volumetric and gravimetric density of 541 Wh/l and 257 Wh/kg.

The pouch cell consists of individual layers of anode and cathode material with an intermediate plastic separator. Although the cell construction is designed for high energy content, the pouch cell has a low internal resistance. The discharge rate is over 6C. Charging from 0 to 80 % State of Charge (SoC) is achieved with DC at 100 kW in just 40 min. The cells are designed for operation at extreme temperatures of -40 to +60 °C. Performance is reduced at the lower and upper temperature limits to prevent cell damage. Within a module, the cells are welded together at the tabs.
https://autotechreview.com/technology/p ... uar-i-pace

6C ....check the authors 8-)

Maybe i found my battery bricks....
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EV_Builder
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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arber333 wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:46 pm
Jack Bauer wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:11 pm Arber, did you ever get comms with the bms working?
No, after innitial observation and testing the wiring and Rover version of ISA shunt i never tried. I think i am out of my depth on this, that is why i offered you those BMS units.
In any case i had to split up the cells to fit them in my car so original BMS is not really an option. I am using my own design protecting the cells at top and bottom end with two daisy chain OR loops through my DUE control.
@Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
arber333
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
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EV_Builder
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

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arber333 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:20 pm
EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
Ok I'm interested to know too so if either you or Damien can check would be interested :)
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FJ3422
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by FJ3422 »

arber333 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:20 pm
EV_Builder wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:56 pm @Arber333 do you have a close-up picture of those boards?
Would like to know which IC is on them. Is it correct you had 4 connections to the outside world? (4pole connector)
I will try to find some photos. I managed to open one BMS box and i took some photos. Black boxes are plastic welded and a pain to take apart. It seemed too complex for me at the time. Also connections werent right for my configuration. I send them to Damien to torture them further. Maybe they will spill out the details to him :).
Can you please post the pictures of the BMS-master / slaves here ?
Anyone who has some more information on the BMS used on the iPace bricks ?
rob1772
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by rob1772 »

Love the work you are doing here. It's good to get into the guts of things to improve our understanding.

You mentioned earlier that the modules use LG 3.7V 60AH HW001 cells? Is this still the current understanding?
Reason I ask is that I'm trying to piece together the technical spec for these module cells (in absence of any known datasheet)

Do these specs listed below here match up with what you have found?

Nominal Voltage: 3.7V although I have also see 3.65 and 3.6 listed (Jaguar now state in the owners manual that it is a 388V (nominal) pack therefore with 108S pack that gives nominal 3.6V per cell)
Max charge current: 60A
Nominal capacity: 60000mah
Net weight: 850g
Internal resistance: 1m(ohm)
Discharge current (continuous) 120(2C)
Plus discharge current: 300(5C)
Cutoff charge voltage: 4.2V
Cut-off discharge voltage: 2.75V

Thanks
arber333
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by arber333 »

That would all be true. But i would not go to the edges of SOC. I use cell from 3.0V to 4.08V and that is it. Everything else i can confirm.
rob1772
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by rob1772 »

Thanks for confirming. Is there anything else you are able to add such as advice on temperature compensation or voltages of when balancing should start / stop, temperature derate for both charge and discharge - basically anything you're got configured for these cells within you BMS :)
I'm trying to piece together a useable profile to configure an Orion 2 BMS.
arber333
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Re: Jaguar battery porn XXX

Post by arber333 »

To quote Auto tech review on more specific data:
The battery pack is designed as a 108S4P configuration. There are 108 cells connected in series and four in parallel. The battery consists of 36 modules containing 12 cells per module, and a total of 432 cells. The rated voltage of the battery is 389 V and has a capacity of 90.2 kWh. The total energy density is 149 Wh/kg. The battery pack can deliver 358 kW of instantaneous power for up to 10 s and has a continuous output of 110 kW. The high-energy pouch cells use the latest NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) technology and provide high volumetric and gravimetric density of 541 Wh/l and 257 Wh/kg.
I was not aware they are 58Ah cells, but so are those from Audi E-tron which are similar model.
If you recalculate those claims... 358kW / 4P = 89,5kW for single string. Then you further divide by 108 cells and 3.65V per cell to get 227A per cell. This is 10s rating of 3.9C and single cell can withstand 1.2C load indefinitely. That is 110kW system load with cooling in place.
The lifetime goal of ten years is achieved, inter alia, by limiting the SoC. The usable range is 0 to 96 % and is monitored by the battery control module. The I-Pace battery has been subjected to rigorous testing to ensure maximum reliability and safety throughout the vehicle’s service life. The battery was subjected to temperature shocks between -40 and +85 °C. Between +25 and +80 °C, the absence of corrosion was detected with high humidity of 70 to 95 %. All legal crash tests were successfully completed, including drop tests from 4.9 m height on concrete floor.
Thermal runaway is real danger with those new low Vanadium content cells. I think industry just realized that.
I have provoked thermal runaway with cell layer damage only stabing them through and not keeping the nail in the cell. Of course also with nail pushed through the cell connecting all the layers! What is concerning is that it seems cells will overheat very easily if emptied and thermal runaway is a real concern. I would advise no fast charging or fast draining without some cooling system. Battery core temperature needs to be monitored.
Otherwise i see a charging knee at 3.95V upwards where balancing becomes effective. I NEVER discharge cells below 3.0V!
Whenever i experimented with undervoltage cells started to overheat. Furthermore i had two cells in paralell and it seems one of them dropped to 0% SOC and went into reversal. It started to drain the second one. Within minutes the second one heated up. When i tried to charge them i could charge the second one but it quickly got drained into the first one. In the car that would be reason for thermal runaway.

And one advice: If you keep split pack, have one fuse on positive line inside the rear of the pack and one fuse in the front pack to split them up. This can prevent total loss if cells in front would melt the cables in the car shorting the rear pack also.
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