BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Development and discussion of fast charging systems eg Chademo , CCS etc
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

That's a very interesting piece of info thanks as always for your help:) I'll have another sleuthing session on the CAN logs and will grab some CAN this week during an Ionity attempt for comparison.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Ok so to put this is dumb Damien lingo it goes like this :

1)Plug in
2)LIM sees 5% pilot in state B, fires up the QCA 7000 and sends a general "Hello" in the form of CM_SLAC_PARAM.REQ to anyone listening.
3)Connected station comes back with CM_SLAC_PARM.CNF which is a list of "soundings" it would like the LIM to perform.
4)LIM does as per 3 in the form of sending CM_START_ATTEN_CHAR.IND x3 and CM_MNBC_SOUND.IND
5)EVSE responds to how it "heard" those soundings in the form of CM_ATTEN_CHAR.IND which includes an attenuation value in dB.
6)LIM confirms data from 5 with CM_ATTEN_CHAR.RSP
7)LIM should now say CM_SLAC_MATCH.REQ which is basically asking the EVSE to be friends now that we have a common lingo and cam hear each other
8)EVSE confirms friendship with CM_SLAC_MATCH.CNF

But in the case of Ionity/ABB and other HPCs presumably we are failing at 7.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Went out today and removed about a metre of unnecessary wire and several joins from the charge port to LIM. Wrapping up I plug into ac just to test and was tidying up the wires with a few cable ties when THUMP THUMP! Contactors drop out. Wiggle the wires and bit more THUMP THUMP! contactors back in. Not one but TWO bad connections in the 6 pin connector on the LIM. I'll let you guess which two completely unimportant wires those might have been. Replaced the whole lot and dabbed a bit of solder on each just to be sure. I hate connectors. Anyway, knowing my luck it will have no effect whatsoever:)
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Didn't get any can logs today as was in a hurry but.... Mr.Ionity gave me a new message after thinking about it for about 20 seconds. "Comms problem. Car must be switched off" Also one of the 4 was having a bad hair day.
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CCSknowitall
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by CCSknowitall »

The comms error is a pretty big catch all, I think. You're probably getting SLAC started now though.
AxelV
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by AxelV »

Jack Bauer wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:09 am
7)LIM should now say CM_SLAC_MATCH.REQ which is basically asking the EVSE to be friends now that we have a common lingo and cam hear each other

But in the case of Ionity/ABB and other HPCs presumably we are failing at 7.
Ah, so you finally figured it out :).

BMWs are known to have a somewhat "weaker" PLC signal. That make the stations measure and report back a higher attenuation value. And BMW controller will refuse to match in slac pairing if that attenuation is more than 45dB.

I don't know why their sounding signal is particularly weak compared to other vehicule controllers. Especially since I am sure the guys behind it made it as much as possible "by the book", calibrated and all.

But long story short, even if you manage to figure out how to use these bmw controllers, they will give some headaches to conversion enthousiasts in the community, as they will require them to have near top notch wiring of CP+PE up to the inlet. And maybe force them to not go at stations that have long cables on top of your own wiring.
Plus, figuring out how to recalibrate the signal strength of this units seems unlikely, as that's a factory process :S.

On the other side, as PLC comm is the weak point of CCS in general, good wiring will be required anyway to combat noise issues that start to show up at higher currents.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by mikeselectricstuff »


I don't know why their sounding signal is particularly weak compared to other vehicule controllers. Especially since I am sure the guys behind it made it as much as possible "by the book", calibrated and all.
I heard a second-hand comment from someone that works with CCS development that the power/sensitivity level is a balance between working and not picking up signals from adjacent chargers.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

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AxelV
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by AxelV »

mikeselectricstuff wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:30 am

I don't know why their sounding signal is particularly weak compared to other vehicule controllers. Especially since I am sure the guys behind it made it as much as possible "by the book", calibrated and all.
I heard a second-hand comment from someone that works with CCS development that the power/sensitivity level is a balance between working and not picking up signals from adjacent chargers.
I usually says this PLC technology is a wired RF line :D. It can find its way to nearby chargers and vehicle, yes. I have even seen it work across cold joints or even open switches placed on the CP line (with very high attenuation results though).

But the SLAC pairing is here exactly to address that. Its main point is to ensure the charger the vehicle is communicating with is actually the one it is also directly connected to. Once matched, the charger sends its network info to the vehicle, and from there they should be on their own isolated network (ie. the PLC modem of each node should just discard packets it receives from other nodes not in the network).

So, normally, crosstalk should not be an issue. These BMW being among the first CCS vehicles on the market, it could be they just have been conservative and limited their emission power. And they won't probably change that until they make a new charge controller compatible with the ISO standard (which should be soonish?).
Nearly a decade later, and after seeing lots of vehicle and chargers transmitting at the maximum allowed by national standards on these bands, I would say crosstalk is not realistically an issue.

Only time it caused me problem was when I was using a SLAC implementation that was, let's say, optimistic, and did not implemented any of the protocol requirements specifically made to handle crosstalk situations.
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CCSknowitall
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by CCSknowitall »

Congrats Damien! I suspect your wiring changes are the reason for your success, not the station. If you want to rule out ABB, I would try to find a 50kW ABB (Terra 53 or 54) nearby. I’m pretty sure they run the same CCS interface and software as their high power brethren.

Also, welcome AxelV, nice to see someone with industry experience join too.

I wonder if the Mini LIM has a different SLAC characteristic. I have noticed all the eBay LIMs with CCS are gone. Buying new may be the only practical option for some.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

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Jack Bauer wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:40 am"Queue up AC/DC's "Back in Black" and click play in 3, 2, 1... now"
Mashup created:

http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/619968 ... -black.php

Click the play button below the video windows.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Ah Matt that is brilliant:) Thank you. Yeah there is a 50kw ABB triple station that I can try so will do so asap.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by muehlpower »

CCSknowitall wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:09 pm I wonder if the Mini LIM has a different SLAC characteristic. I have noticed all the eBay LIMs with CCS are gone. Buying new may be the only practical option for some.
Part number 6135-9454319 seems to be the last version and is installed in MINI and I3. Also looks a little different in terms of hardware.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

I'll get a price on that from my parts guy in the morning and post here.
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EV_Builder
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by EV_Builder »

Did we test the LIM's limits regarding coil resistance?
My eyes fell on 11.0 Ohm coils. I know we state 15.0 Ohm as default but I like to keep things standard and not go with a relais in-between trick which would mean I would need to economize the 11.0 Ohm relais. Maybe we can change something simple on the board to make it work?
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cloudy
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by cloudy »

What are people doing with the CP line for AC charge if the LIM is handling it? Re-transmitting? Emulating?
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by EV_Builder »

If I'm correct the wire is split/shared towards the charger and the lim.
I know that the LIM canbus sends 3b4, so the data is available the charger could be 100% canbus.
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CCSknowitall
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by CCSknowitall »

EV_Builder wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:11 pm If I'm correct the wire is split/shared towards the charger and the lim.
Can’t have two car side devices on one pilot line, you’ll end up pulling the pilot down to state D (ventilation required) or lower which would be invalid.

Ether use the CAN values from the LIM, monitor the pilot voltage with an ADC with the LIM still doing the state changes, or have a signal relay that physically switches the pilot wire from your on board charger to the LIM when needed. Probably a good idea to do it for proximity as well.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by EV_Builder »

Ahh ok i meant proximity indeed. But the LIM reports it so i would solve it by CAN if that works.
Or as you suggest by relais (DPDT ) (fast charge/ac charge).
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by cloudy »

Thanks, yes my concern was pulling the pilot down. I guess it could be as easy as a hardware AC/DC switch with a DPDT relay moving CP and PP or can read the value off the LIM can and generate PWM accordingly...
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Last weekend I went on a 200 mile voyage to buy some underfloor heating mat and visited some CCS chargers including a few old friends who didn't work before but do now.


And today I was off again on a shorter 100 mile trip powered by my new best pals at ABB :) That's right the ABB terra that didn't work before does so now.

At the Ionity station today I was sandwiched between some Audi and an ID4 that were charging when I arrived. When I plugged in I got the dreaded message but the new state machine just keeps retrying and after 30 secs or so we started charging. Perhaps some PLC interference from the Wolfsburg crew?

Anyway, I'm a happy camper now:)
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by CCSknowitall »

A word about the Delta behavior you observed. First off, you’re not doing anything wrong. This is somewhat normal behavior, although what you’re doing is not common as far as asking for less current then asking for substantially more current.

Most DC fast chargers have their power conversion divided into modules (Efacec QC50 being a notable exception- it’s one big block). With higher power (>50kW) stations, it became practical to try and share these modules around different dispensers or connectors. It also is better to match the number of modules to the actual car load. Module sizes are anywhere from 10-50kW.

So, stations look at what you’re requesting, and can release modules from you if you’re not using them. In a normal EV, as your current goes down, you’re not going to sort of reverse course and then ask for a lot more current. So there’s usually charger logic that if you’re at a certain lower power level, it’s ok to release power modules. You’ll see your EVSE maximum current limit and EVSE power limit decrease when this happens. Now, some good stations will detect if you start requesting near the new max limits, and give you one or more modules back. The Delta apparently does this. Others may not, and your only way to get back to high power is to stop the session and restart.

So, do keep in mind that on some stations if you cut the power down on your side, you’ll see the station maximums go down. In practice I don’t recommend doing this unless you have a pretty good reason to do.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by CCSknowitall »

Oh and power limit flag - as far as I know, no production EV actually responds to the EVSE power limit reached, current limit reached, and voltage limit reached. Shocking, I know.
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Re: BMW i3 CCS/charge port controller

Post by EV_Builder »

CCSknowitall wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:34 pm no production EV actually responds to the EVSE power limit reached, current limit reached, and voltage limit reached. Shocking, I know.
It also depends on interpretation. It could be pure informational. Also it could be that like "target values" are reached.
Or like damien implements, as a warning --> please lower current.
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