L210 gearbox

[Jacobsmess]

I don't see why not, the L210 is used in both

[Woodfie]

Hi, on the topic of L210 and Prius gen 3 inverter,
Have managed some test driving, using sync serial HTM
communication.
Have found is limited to max of 45 A, and max of 53 Kph.
Thinking is that this is similar to Priys EV mode, so now have a vehicle test bed instead of the Bench, some re discovery of the control into is required.

[Woodfie]

An Outline of set up

[Woodfie]

L210 yard test run

[Bigpie]

Nice work, couple of questions though. Did you hookup and cooling and MG1 for driving test?

[Woodfie]

Cooling circuit and small radiator are installed. A 5km run on MG2 only , raised temp 3°C above ambient.
First step is MG2 by itself, and establish V requirements , for desired speed of operation.
Then to add MG 1 to the power train .
Final stage will be to have a range extender option, input into spline, of a moderate 10 or 20 kw, with a Sprague clutch or other locking, to still use MG1 and MG2 for traction when required.
This final stage is presently operating on a gs450h in a Bedford campervan, but not Sprague locked yet, or programmed to run both motors.

[Woodfie]

Re L210 trans gs/is300h Motor speeds, Gearing ratios etc.
Aim to establish expected rotor speeds, reported MTH speeds, in real world experience.
The BMWagon with the

1)L210 transmission,

2)Prius Zvw30 inverter, sync serial communication with
Dueboard,to HTM, MTH, REQ and CLK.

3)Running code modified from Gs450h github V7

Output Driveshaft has 3.33:1 reduction Mg2 to the driveshaft. (Wiki, and chrksy strip down.)
It would appear that Mg1 to the driveshaft has around 2.6:1 reduction.

At 50kph, measured with GPS app, as cars speedometer is not indicating, the serial data on arduino ide, reported 5200 to 5300rpm.
With bmw diff ratio of 2.7, and 26" OD tyres,
It would be expected to be around 3500rpm..

Am now suspecting that perhaps the L210 has a 6 pole pair motor, and the Prius inverter is reporting as if a 4 pole pair
Motor, which would report 6/4 the rpm.

A further test will be done with the wheels off the ground, and check Mg2 to Mg1 relative soeeds, as had only asked my screen observer for Mg2 speed, the test set up had multiple lead, comport losses, restarts, yardgate closures, and abnormal startup hiccups, which were further complicated by the arrival of some all important Sausages and Chips, for the assisting crew ,as a consequence Mg1 went unnoticed, in a few minute outing of 3km to find suitable road/traffic free zone to achieve constant 50kph.

[andybpowell]

Real world data you just can't beat it

[Woodfie]

Yes thanks, real world is good
With the drive system as described in previous post, battery current draw of a bit over 90A has been observed.
However had maximum speed appeared to be around 63kph, even on a slight downhill bit of road, and max of 78A drawn.
A step further, with wheels in the air, on a hoist, to see if some speed limit from the inverter was active, and higher speed estimated at 133kph, at the reported 14,000rpm if Mg2. And felt it would go higher..Just trying to assure that this is being overstated, before risking more speed... The gs300h or is spec is 200kph at 14,000 so again thinking if 6 pole pair maybe the case..

Has anyone any knowledge of the pole count?

So surprise there doesn't seem to be a rev limitation , unless this is linked in some way to power being delivered.

Back to some speed results
Mg2 at reported 14,000 believed to be 9333rpm if 6polep
Mg1 at reported 11,000 believed to be 7333rpm if 6polep

Numbers were fluctuating, but is fitting with the Mg2 ratio of 3.33, and Mg1 to driveshaft of 2.6 ish

Also of note, was when connected Mg1, at first did it with Mg2 UVW disconnected, as well as programmed out.
Mg1 felt a fraction of Mg2, and challenged to get over the ramp in the center of the hoist, but did confirm operation and correct direction, before connecting both motors.

Although Mg1 is maybe 25mm larger diameter, which helps torque, then Mg2 appears about 3.5 times longer, some guestimation puts Mg1 as contributing 40% of torque of Mg2... I find this believable.

Next challenge to find what is holding the road speed to max63kph.

[Woodfie]

.

[Woodfie]

Hi All,
Inthe progress and group assisting excitement, I have Screwed up... and apologies for the
17Dec post.

Haven't figured how to put in Highlighted snippets of previous messages. WIP
I stated a ratio for Bmw diff as 2.6:1
WHERE IT SHOULD BE 3.75:1

this lead me to concluding there was too many pulses coming from the motor, and that it could have been 6 pole pair.... I believe now that it will be a 4 pole pair motor, as in Prius's, Highlander Q211, and estimas, that have observed stripped down.

Regarding the reported info on the Bmw Diff ratio , that had measured maybe 2 months back, had written on tape on the driveshaft 3.75 : 1.

Memory had a brain fart, and when had looked up the gs and is diff ratios, of around 2.47 to 2.7, somehow perceived that the Bmw was in that ball park at 2.6.
Wrong...wrong... wrong, so apologies again for that serious anomaly..

Moving on to other things..
Have run at no load up to 14,000rpm,
And seeing 50A drawn which seems way too much.
Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks

[andybpowell]

it's really good seeing all of this l210 information starting to come in at last hopefully given a break in the weather I might be able to add to it soon the information seems to suggest an output shaft max speed of about 4200 rpm which is enough to break the speed limit in most countries with most common diff ratios and wheel size combinations I will be changing my diff for a taller ratio to try to bring the rpm down it's shot anyway so might as well make the most of it just need to find one with a lower ratio

[Jacobsmess]

it's really good seeing all of this l210 information starting to come in at last hopefully given a break in the weather I might be able to add to it soon the information seems to suggest an output shaft max speed of about 4200 rpm which is enough to break the speed limit in most countries with most common diff ratios and wheel size combinations I will be changing my diff for a taller ratio to try to bring the rpm down it's shot anyway so might as well make the most of it just need to find one with a lower ratio

That is interesting, is that a shaft speed loaded or unloaded? That puts mg2 at 14000rpm as predicted and mg1 at 10900rpm

[Woodfie]

Have run at no load up to 14,000rpm,
And seeing 50A drawn which seems way too much.


Installed in Bmwagon, rear wheels lifted off ground.

[Woodfie]

Started on a path to check the seemingly large battery current under " No Load " ie wheels off the ground, so just final drive train unloaded losses.
These figures were recorded, before unfortunately damaging the ZVW30 inverter , with a suspected cooling pump fail.
MG1 and MG2 were slightly stammering at 3300rpm,
Current Draw of 7 to 10 A when holding constant speed. Not good.

So ran MG 2 alone. Mg1_torque = 0

3300 rpm 4.5 A
6600 rpm 10.3A
9900rpm 20.8A * then the unfortunate large "POP "

THIS Terminated any further measurements. The 20.8 A bus current would have been run for around 30 secs , Have no idea if what motor current was, cooling plate with water in was at 34°C after the event.

The Brief result of the little data gleaned before it Died
Is that the current was doubling at each step..I realize more data is needed, but this still indicates excessive current draw to me as the drivedshaft 1000rpm steps proceeded.
I had not disconnected UVW of Mg1, batt V were 298v

Could it be this excessive current is Field Weakening?

The Prius ZVW30 inverter is maybe unsuited to L210

Will Require another inverter to Continue..Bugger..

[Woodfie]

Today was able to do some more follow up.

Another Inverter, #2 with its Boost converter annulled, I.e. it's connections isolated, as may have had some of its Boost circuit fail before I obtained it.

Mg1 has had UVW disconnected, and set mg_torque = 0

Comparing to inverter#1 , appears to draw more current at 3300rpm Mg2 speed, at 6.3 A cf 4.3A beforehand

This is not encouraging, as I was already concerned that the unloaded draw felt a bit high.

But the more disconcerting fact is that when run forv15 sec at 3300rpm, a change in note of motor noise occurs, and a Current jump to 10.4 A. This indicates some instability that is very undesirable.. Unknown at this stage, but raises the question of is the Prius gen3 ZVW30
Inverter not suited to the L210.

If anyone has bench test data of V and A draw of L210 transmission with its proper 300h inverter, at 1000rpm driveshaft speed, I.e 3300rpm Mg2 speed.
I would be keen to know your findings.

[andybpowell]

Mine was running at 900rpm 60v 5A I'm hoping to have mine up and running after Christmas but it's really weather dependent

[Woodfie]

Mine was running at 900rpm 60v 5A I'm hoping to have mine up and running after Christmas but it's really weather dependent

Was that 900rpm Mg2 speed, or drive flange speed.?

Also , was it with no load, I.e no drivedhaft, differential connected?

Thanks...

[andybpowell]

900 rpm mg2 no load

[Woodfie]

Lexus L210 trans having some back emf challenges.

some more, Bmwagon probing. Input shaft locked wheels unloaded.
Running Mg1 to drive Mg2, phases disconnected.

1000rpm drvsft 140vrms
2000rpm 280vrms
3000rpm 460vrms
4000rpm 560vrms
Hmmmmm could be a challenge for the 270v nominal bus. Seems like back emf is troublesome and being a possible handicap to the 63kph max speed achieved, at around 1875 rpm drvshaft speed.


Options are.
1)More base voltage.
2)A macho Boost convrter
3)Diff ratio of around 1.5:1 (presently 3.75 which about 3000rpm for100kph.)
4) modify internal gears in some way.

[SteadyEddy]

Do you think it's a fundamental issue with applying the Prius inverter to the L210 - would results be better with matching inverter from GS300h?

[Woodfie]

Would like to have had a matching inverter to try, but haven't one available as yet. The Prius gen3 inverter maybe switching to FWeakening at lower speed,
However unfortunately feel it is fundamental at this stage.
The GS300H. with 2.7 diff, 14000rpm Mg2 would likely be 600vrms, with FW and bus boosted to say 650v, maybe where it sits.
May have an option to try a GS450H inverter, although yhis will not change the suspected voltage deficiency.

[Ruudi S]

Re L210 trans gs/is300h Motor speeds, Gearing ratios etc.
Aim to establish expected rotor speeds, reported MTH speeds, in real world experience.
The BMWagon with the

1)L210 transmission,

2)Prius Zvw30 inverter, sync serial communication with
Dueboard,to HTM, MTH, REQ and CLK.

I understand that you run the motor with prius inverter that isn't adjusted for L210 motor. How can you be sure it knows the resolver positions like in the l210 motor my understanding about other EV-s is that you need to teach the rotor positions even if you use original inverter.

[Woodfie]

Good Question.
The prius motors, seems like Hylander Q211, and Lexus hybrids, appear to have their resolvers factory adjusted and aligned to some specific position relative to one of the phases.
Nissan leaf on the other hand are assembled , the resolver position stamped on the case, and require the inverter to be set accordingly .
The Resolver adjustment setting screws come with a warning DONT mess with these.
I have assumed that the Toyotas are supporting the same alignment over their range....
Scope traces of the resolver sin and cos at different static excited phases , compared from known motors, to set up unknown, then Fwd and Rev direction and smooth even running , has been the basis of setting up the motor.
On another arrangement of a Smart Ed motor, and a Leaf inverter, had the resolver able to adjust its position whilst driving, but found little difference from the static method Of course thus maynot be universal, but seemed fine here.
I don't have a know better way, am eager to hear any suggestions.
Matching is best with correct inverter and motor, as the likes of current limits, inductance Matching, and other unknowns beyond experimental experience will undoubtedly exist. At this stage I don't have the correct inverter available , and hoping to hear how folks with the Matching units are successful.

[rstevens81]

We are deffo getting a 1+1=5 with the voltages here...
The reason for the boost inverter is basically so the motor doesn't do field weakening, particularly the generator.
Based on the numbers so far you boost to 600v and you still have to field weakening to get it to 14k rpm top speed of the cars.
What I find strange is that if we feeding 1/2 of the voltage e.g. 650v/2=325v then we would expect that maximum rpm to be halved say 7+k rpm.
If it is indeed that the motors need 600v and field weakening then that could work to our advantage ... That would mean that motors are wound for torque and needs lots of voltage to get the revs through field weakening and boost, therefore welding the gears together might actually work.

But it basically going to come down to hard data with a matched inverter and drive unit to see what the feck is going on.