L210 gearbox

[Woodfie]

We are deffo getting a 1+1=5 with the voltages here...
The reason for the boost inverter is basically so the motor doesn't do field weakening, particularly the generator.
Based on the numbers so far you boost to 600v and you still have to field weakening to get it to 14k rpm top speed of the cars.
What I find strange is that if we feeding 1/2 of the voltage e.g. 650v/2=325v then we would expect that maximum rpm to be halved say 7+k rpm.
If it is indeed that the motors need 600v and field weakening then that could work to our advantage ... That would mean that motors are wound for torque and needs lots of voltage to get the revs through field weakening and boost, therefore welding the gears together might actually work.

But it basically going to come down to hard data with a matched inverter and drive unit to see what the feck is going on.

Yes, strange indeed, am still getting to grips with how the field weakening is instigated... Is it from when the back emf is a % of the pack voltage ?
When the 14000rpm Mg2, was run unloaded, Mg1 at around 11000, was drawing 50A at 280v, which maybe say 10A to do the drivetrain friction, oil in diff swirling etc, and the other 40A into field weakening, in order to achieve around double the expected max rpm.

[rstevens81]

To my understanding is that field weakening is effectively like making the motor act like a generator to make more voltage... However this is very difficult to control and a very bad idea in a generator (you only have to look at some of the oi simulator stuff to realise what weird thing it is).
I thought the Toyota inverters avoided using fw altogether and that was the reason for the buck boost.
If indeed fw is used then using a Prius inverter with a gs300h would be getting strange results as the windings and hence inverter parameters would be completely different.

[andybpowell]

I agree there's too many assumptions being made about the l210 with insufficient data.
Given a couple of days of decent weather I can have mine running but it's just too damned wet and cold and my old bones don't like it

[Woodfie]

Great, hope the weather is kind for you.

[bobby_come_lately]

Wishing I'd got around to getting my bench setup finished now, then I might be able to contribute!

[Woodfie]

Testing to assess power output, I feel is what is needed.
Where andybpowell is going with matching 300h inverter, and some V and A measure at vehicle load and speed, will be invaluable data..

I guess an attempt at running Mg1 against Mg2 , could be done on the bench, but a challenge to measure the current into one, and out of the other..
Like a self dyno test.
Of course if it ends up greater than Unity, there could be lots of excitement, and rewrite of some physics books

[SciroccoEV]

Field weakening is used to REDUCE the back EMF of the motor, reducing it's effectiveness as a generator.

As motor rpm increases, it's output as a generator increases, so you would need to apply ever more voltage to keep it in the constant torque range. You can generate a bit more than battery voltage (with 3rd harmonic, overmodulation, six step etc.), but eventually, you just haven't got enough voltage overhead to 'push' current through the motor.

The uncontrolled regen that used to happen with the FOC system was due to a loss of field weakening at high rpm, so that the motor voltage rose significantly above battery voltage.

[andybpowell]

Field weakening is used to REDUCE the back EMF of the motor, reducing it's effectiveness as a generator.

As motor rpm increases, it's output as a generator increases, so you would need to apply ever more voltage to keep it in the constant torque range. You can generate a bit more than battery voltage (with 3rd harmonic, overmodulation, six step etc.), but eventually, you just haven't got enough voltage overhead to 'push' current through the motor.

The uncontrolled regen that used to happen with the FOC system was due to a loss of field weakening at high rpm, so that the motor voltage rose significantly above battery voltage.

well I understood everything but "(with 3rd harmonic, overmodulation, six step etc.)" please don't try to explain it though it'll just make my head hurt
on a positive note I've been getting on with the wiring so may have something to contribute soon if the weather holds

[Woodfie]

Re Jacobmess CVT suggestion. FOR an additional motor input , I.e . 3 motors and 3 inverters, if 3rd motor is electric not an IC input.

The CVT control of Lexus gs300h L210 to mitigate the higher speed of MG1 out of field weakening would seem like a Plan.
Have considered locking the 3.3 reduction on Mg2, with obvious torque reduction, but if MG1 and Power split combined with input shaft rotation, Electric or other, the 2.6 ratio of MG1 complimation and output driveshaft could be programmed for its max torque at low speed, (sprague clutch to stop reverse direction of input or your additional motor on the input, drawing amps to provide no rotation,so not a power draw???)and control the max MG1 speed to a non detrimental figure of maybe 6500rpm or similar.

BTW, now Have the I 3 REX now spinning on a Leaf gen2 inverter, if that would help.
I wonder of that unit would be helpful for your CVT plan.

This has become a L210 topic, so have repeated it here, from MGR topic.

[Jacobsmess]

Re Jacobmess CVT suggestion. FOR an additional motor input , I.e . 3 motors and 3 inverters, if 3rd motor is electric not an IC input.

The CVT control of Lexus gs300h L210 to mitigate the higher speed of MG1 out of field weakening would seem like a Plan.
Have considered locking the 3.3 reduction on Mg2, with obvious torque reduction, but if MG1 and Power split combined with input shaft rotation, Electric or other, the 2.6 ratio of MG1 complimation and output driveshaft could be programmed for its max torque at low speed, (sprague clutch to stop reverse direction of input or your additional motor on the input, drawing amps to provide no rotation,so not a power draw???)and control the max MG1 speed to a non detrimental figure of maybe 6500rpm or similar.

BTW, now Have the I 3 REX now spinning on a Leaf gen2 inverter, if that would help.
I wonder of that unit would be helpful for your CVT plan.

This has become a L210 topic, so have repeated it here, from MGR topic.

That does look an interesting option. I wonder what the torque output is?

I'd like to keep mg2 at 3.33 as it will be driving a van so the torque is advantageous.

How easy is it to remove the irex generator?

[Aragorn]

Theres still a fundamental misunderstanding here with this CVT talk... You cannot have MG1 contributing to traction torque AND be using the CVT at the same time.

MG1's job in the CVT is to absorb power, ie act as a generator.

[tom91]

https://www.thecatalystis.com/gears/

I will leave this here for you guys to look at.

[Jacobsmess]

MG1's job in the CVT is to absorb power, ie act as a generator.

AND to vary the output shaft speed in relation to the ICE as I understand it, unless that is the Weber video on the Subaru CVT is incorrect. Otherwise the ICE would be on a fixed gear/direct drive and be pretty useless in most applications.
viewtopic.php?t=4084

[Woodfie]

[quote

How easy is it to remove the irex generator?
[/quote]

There are 3 of the 6 holding M10 bolt holes that are tapped M12 x1.5, in place of yhe Bmw special tooling,
But with 3 M12 bolts and 25mm long 10mmdia dowels inserted in the threaded holes first , it can be uniformly jacked off.
The gripping of the anti backlash Torsion spline if what holds on, and at first thought it was possibly Rusted together.. once 25 to 50mm apart, depending on one or both ends of the Torsion spline releasing, it falls apart,
Bmw give no procedure for re using the spline , replace it at €504 or so.
Yes have a method if any one needs help , to get it together, will see if it works okay.

[Woodfie]

Theres still a fundamental misunderstanding here with this CVT talk... You cannot have MG1 contributing to traction torque AND be using the CVT at the same time.

MG1's job in the CVT is to absorb power, ie act as a generator.

Yes ,Separate functions
idea is to use it for traction, with input held from turning , at take off,
Then have it prevented from a speed where it FWeakns ,
At this stage as a generator to balance against power coming into the input shaft, from another source, be it electric motor, or IC.
Sort of like the Prius Phev sprague, which allows MG1 to be both Traction, and generator in different modes.

[Woodfie]

Quote

I'd like to keep mg2 at 3.33 as it

Quote

At this plus a diff ratio is around 4.3, I think the speed will be limited to town driving, unless you have 650v for the inverter ..

[Jacobsmess]

Quote

I'd like to keep mg2 at 3.33 as it

Quote

At this plus a diff ratio is around 4.3, I think the speed will be limited to town driving, unless you have 650v for the inverter ..

Yes that's why I was interested to see if the 3rd motor could be used to vary output shaft speed with mg1. Otherwise 650V or a new diff (mine is 4.8). But right now I'm actually exploring the GS450H as it has better gearing for the van.

[Woodfie]

Yes the GS450H, in high gear is a better fit.

[Aragorn]

AND to vary the output shaft speed in relation to the ICE as I understand it, unless that is the Weber video on the Subaru CVT is incorrect. Otherwise the ICE would be on a fixed gear/direct drive and be pretty useless in most applications.

Correct, but it can only do that by running in generator mode, essentially acting as a brake on the planet ring. Thus it cannot provide power TO the output shaft. Essentially by choosing to use the CVT, you are losing any traction power that MG1 might have been able to supply, and replacing it with whatever power your third motor is feeding in.

If that third motor is beefy, it might well make sense. But it might also make sense to just lock the CVT entirely and use BOTH MG1 and your third motor together...

[jrbe]

Correct, but it can only do that by running in generator mode, essentially acting as a brake on the planet ring.

It can also speed up the planetary ring, no?
So a braking effect, fixed, and also an acceleration. Otherwise you're only able to use the variable gearing in one direction to fixed.

The thought is if the variable gearing could be used you get the gearing advantage to potentially make up for the planetary speed control motor's drive. The tricky bits are keeping them all under their max rpm, the code to run 3 motors in harmony, and have them all do the right thing at all times.

[Woodfie]

L210 Transmission project.

on a positive note I've been getting on with the wiring so may have something to contribute soon if the weather holds

Hi, how is the project going?

Hopefully the weather is being kind to you .

[ToxaKartoxa]

Hi all! I bought a Toyota Crown inverter, an L210 gearbox and a Toyota Harrier gear reducer. To begin with, I connected a Toyota Harrier gear reducer to the inverter at home in order to debug the control of the inverter using its native interface. In addition to the parameters and variables specified in the ZombieVerter sources, I found the modes of free run-out of the rotor, short-circuit on the rotor, amperage of motor phases, rotor position, limitation of maximum revolutions. I can’t find any way to set the resolver correction angle. Is it really necessary to adjust the sensor on the engine manually? Who knows whether the resolver angle parameters are hardwired from the factory into the inverter itself, or when the car’s ignition is turned on, the ECU itself sends these parameters to it?
If you incorrectly adjust the resolver angle, then in addition to loss of torque and asymmetrical forward/backward operation of the motor, you can also burn out the inverter.

[Woodfie]

Hi all! I bought a Toyota Crown inverter, an L210 gearbox and a Toyota Harrier gear reducer. To begin with, I connected a Toyota Harrier gear reducer to the inverter at home in order to debug the control of the inverter using its native interface. In addition to the parameters and variables specified in the ZombieVerter sources, I found the modes of free run-out of the rotor, short-circuit on the rotor, amperage of motor phases, rotor position, limitation of maximum revolutions. I can’t find any way to set the resolver correction angle. Is it really necessary to adjust the sensor on the engine manually? Who knows whether the resolver angle parameters are hardwired from the factory into the inverter itself, or when the car’s ignition is turned on, the ECU itself sends these parameters to it?
If you incorrectly adjust the resolver angle, then in addition to loss of torque and asymmetrical forward/backward operation of the motor, you can also burn out the inverter.

My take in it from various prius, Harrier rear, L110, and L210 is that the resolver is factory tuned to a position that is relatated to the phases..
However the arrangement, or ordering of the phases is different for the different inverters, and care is needed to have the phases correct.
Using locked rotor with 2 phases powered, can decifer a position that seems correct, am trying to format a follow able process for this..

[ToxaKartoxa]

Thank you for your answer, I thought I’d be ignored Finding the best option for connecting the phases is not difficult, because there are only three of them. Using a brute force method, I immediately found the correct connection of the phases, but the motor still consumes a little more current in one direction than in the other. And this has something to do with the resolver; I would just slightly adjust this parameter and it would be perfect. I also have a question about Boost Converter. Has anyone managed to activate it using the inverter’s native interface? (on any inverter)

[tom91]

Latest merge into the STM32_VCU now allows more power from a 300h gearbox and inverter combination. It was being limited by the fixed values.
https://github.com/damienmaguire/Stm32-vcu

Results are going from 120A DC to now 280DC, and rising. Testing will still need to be conducted to find the real power limit.
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