Can't Kill A Toyota Inverter

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:32 pm

Sooooo....took the E39 for a little spin today. All going well. Lots of power. On the way back in home I hear a little pop followed by some smoke. This is followed by a bang and lots of smoke.

Oh no! The internet was right. The prius inverter is no good. I have failed. Farewell cruel world.

No. Despite there being a chunk blown out of the cover and the insides looking like a coal mine it still works. No I'm not gone around the bend finally, all 12 igbts are fine, the logic board is fine, the igbt driver board is fine. It starts up and makes AC.

What we do seem to have is a catistrophic failure of the main cap. My best guess is it didn't like 400v on the input side as I had the booster bypassed to get power to the dcdc converter. According to the rating printed on it the main cap is rated to 750v but the input side is only 450v.

Video later after I pick myself up off the floor.

....I mean WTF???? It still works...............but it exploded.................but it works...........Schrodinger's inverter!

mdrobnak · Post by **mdrobnak** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:49 pm

LOL wow! That last pic....and all the others hahaaha

Wow.

Glad it's only $50 to replace.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:47 pm

But.....it still works....how can it still work??

clanger9 · Post by **clanger9** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:56 pm

That is...unreal.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Yep. Think I can see what may have happened. Looking on page 18 : https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publication ... b26762.pdf

I may have rang the inductor like a bell with nowhere for the voltage to go but into the 470v cap....

arber333 · Post by **arber333** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:04 pm

It kinda reminds me to my DIY inverter single IGBT failing in the middle of the road... at night ... in the rain... 30km from home!

Soo... after a while i found out it still worked and performed precharge etc. So i limped home on two phases. It did require i was extra carefull with throttle and plan in advance where i would stop. But Huebner inverter worked on two phases!

So Damien i am not at all surprised..... well a little.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:06 pm

Scratch that. Looking at the xrays on page 25 it now seems certain the 0.5uf 860v filter cap blew.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:07 pm

Yeah for sure. I once said to Johannes if you have worked on power electronics and not blown something up you have not actually worked on power electronics:)

arber333 · Post by **arber333** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:08 pm

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:59 pm I may have rang the inductor like a bell with nowhere for the voltage to go but into the 470v cap....

Could we just bypass the inductor alltogether by adding a straight copper rail across its contacts? I mean inductor has its resistance which i gather is more than 25mm copper rail...

arber333 · Post by **arber333** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:08 pm

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:07 pm Yeah for sure. I once said to Johannes if you have worked on power electronics and not blown something up you have not actually worked on power electronics:)

Like my hands!

YouTube · Post by **johu** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:10 pm

Look at the LEDs still shining

So I don't understand - did you connect your 400V battery to where it says "201.6V"? Or where it says 201.6V - 650V? Who rings the bell? Are you clocking the DC/DC?

clanger9 · Post by **clanger9** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:11 pm

LOL, brings back memories of my first ever "spectacular electronics fail". I somehow overvolted a 4,700uF axial cap in a power supply. It blew the end plug across my bedroom, coupled with an almighty bang and clouds of smoke. I think I was about 10 years old at the time and it cost me nearly a week's pocket money. I even took the remains back to the "radio shop" to ask if they could give me a replacement. Happy days...

arber333 · Post by **arber333** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:15 pm

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:32 pm ....I mean WTF???? It still works...............but it exploded.................but it works...........Schrodinger's inverter!

If you want for the inverter to exist in all possible states at once you must not look at it and must not touch it.
You can argue the fact it still works is evidence of zero point field inside Toyota stuff. Lets tap into that. Maybe we wont have to have batteries at all....

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:20 pm

I had 400v connected to the main 650vdc bus AND the 201v input in order to feed the dcdc. I'm not running the boost converter but just speculating if the inductor started ringing with the ripple from the dc link. It does seem that the small 0.5uf filter cap is the one that failed judging by the xrays from the ornl document...

xp677 · Post by **xp677** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:28 pm

From experience, I can add that the GS450h inverter continues to run fine once the converter has finished exploding violently in its half of the casing, and spewed its guts all over the inverter components! Same black interior on mine, but still running.

IPA gets the dust off, if you can get hold of it these days.

SciroccoEV · Post by **SciroccoEV** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:29 pm

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:07 pm Yeah for sure. I once said to Johannes if you have worked on power electronics and not blown something up you have not actually worked on power electronics:)

On the wall of Otmar Ebenhoech's workshop back in the 90's was a display of exploded IGBT modules and beside it a quote I stole from Douglas Adams for him.

It has undergone "Catastrophic non linear structural exasperation"

Otmar went to curve matched TO247 IGBTs after he found it impossible to keep the modules of the day in one piece.

mdrobnak · Post by **mdrobnak** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:31 pm

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:20 pm I had 400v connected to the main 650vdc bus AND the 201v input in order to feed the dcdc. I'm not running the boost converter but just speculating if the inductor started ringing with the ripple from the dc link. It does seem that the small 0.5uf filter cap is the one that failed judging by the xrays from the ornl document...

Oh, nice, that's not awful then.

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:35 pm

You know I was so upset when I thought it had blown itself to bits but now am feeling energised because its a mystery to solve. Damien brain = weird.

Once inverter number two arrives I think I'll chop out the boost inductor leads and just short them as arber suggested.

YouTube · Post by **johu** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:40 pm

The board is now conformally coated

clanger9 · Post by **clanger9** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:24 pm

Puzzled question: what's the current return path form the HV to earth?

It's flashed over to the inverter casing, but I thought the HV battery system is supposed to float from the casing? Or maybe I haven't been paying attention.

Second puzzled question: how come the arc current didn't blow the HV battery fuse?

arber333 · Post by **arber333** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:45 pm

OK. So it still works, because other elements are rated higher than 450Vdc.

But this begs a question:
1. Is it safe to connect 360Vdc (96S) battery directly to 220Vdc HV input?
2. Do we now ignore inductor and bypass it mechanicaly?

3. What if we wanted to use inductor for charging? So we could use another EV200 contactor to bridge inductor for driving and later open the path for charging?

clanger9 · Post by **clanger9** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:49 pm

I guess you could get away with a low voltage contactor across the inductor, as it's not going to be switching high voltage?

MattsAwesomeStuff · Post by **MattsAwesomeStuff** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:20 pm

celeron55 · Post by **celeron55** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:58 pm

clanger9 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:24 pm how come the arc current didn't blow the HV battery fuse?

Haven't been welding lately? Arcs don't really use that much current. An uncontrolled 100A arc is already quite spectacular, especially at 400V, and wouldn't blow a fuse in any conversion.

xp677 · Post by **xp677** » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:42 pm

arber333 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:45 pm 3. What if we wanted to use inductor for charging? So we could use another EV200 contactor to bridge inductor for driving and later open the path for charging?

If you are using the converter then it should be protected by a suitable fuse. Looking at the teardown of the Prius, it has a similar DC bus as the GS, meaning that connecting your batteries directly to the bus will not provide any protection for the converter.

Normally, the converter is protected by a fuse between it and the battery.

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