VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

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VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

It has been some time and i was developing a controler for both power stages of Ampera/Volt inverter.
Both sides are used to get 1000Arms to the motor.
25mm2 cables can be used out of the current sensors and when they come together Leaf motor uses 50mm2 phase cables. Perfect!
Brain is Johannes controler. It works with resolver interface to sense rotor position. Speeds up to 10000rpm are achievable.

Out of experience i use inverter chip SN74LS06 that inverts positive signals from Olimex STM32 chip and makes them active low.
This chip requires 10K pulldown resistors on each input pin. Otherwise all inputs could be turned on together due to initial Olimex pulse at reset. Version 3.1 has this built in and field test shows it is ok to use.

I also designed a control for third power stage that would be driving aux oil pump inside Ampera transmission. Now it will drive AC compressor for my car. I use Lebowski drive since it can run PM mpotors sensorless. I have one Prius gen2 ACcompressor incoming and will open new thread about this.

For first run i used single side, but later i intend to couple them both. It could easily work from either side. The only caveat is you have to adjust current sensor inline resistors. 3K3 for single control and 6K8 for dual control.


Since i was sucessful in running various motors with this PCB iteration i am publishing it in Design spark format. Some files on connectors and chips also. https://github.com/arber333/Johannes...UAL-IGBT-board
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

That video looks like it's running on a Lebowski board?
In either case, is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chassis-ECM-Hy ... 3020334682
the same part? If so, maybe this is even better than the Prius inverter?
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

mdrobnak wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:56 am That video looks like it's running on a Lebowski board?
In either case, is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chassis-ECM-Hy ... 3020334682
the same part? If so, maybe this is even better than the Prius inverter?
Well yes and no. This particular brain is based on Johannes Rev2 board with things scaled down to SMD elements. I kept the Olimex chip since i am more familliar with design and because i had to replace quite some chips during testing. This one now works with any PMSM and ACIM motor which uses resolver.

Second brain on the board in video is the Lebowski controler which you can see here running a Prius AC compressor. The brain is built very simple to run in sensorless mode.


Since you are from US the best bet would be to get one Volt inverter, P/N is good, and get this board. It can work with both sides running motor. That would mean 2x 600A phase outputs! I just didnt come to testing both sides yet. I am preparing a setup here to test at least small power application. Main part is how to calibrate both current sensors to average to the control pins.

What would be the motor for your application? I have a Leaf motor which i think would be ok with 1000A per phase for short period of time.
PM me for details.

EDIT: In thruth there is another brain i developed for running Volt inverter with PMSM motors first. It uses same Lebowski chip which can drive Leaf motor for example. But for sensors we use an RLS chip with a magnet on rear part of the shaft where resolver would go. It is not as precise as resolover bit it works It now drives several cars. It is way simpler application but for EU acceptance i had to design some safety features into that board since controler was innitially made for e-bikes.

https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/201 ... -inverter/
https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/201 ... n-encoder/
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

Cool. I picked up the inverter, especially at that price. :)

I'm going to use it with a Remy HVH250-115-DOM, so in order to get max torque out of it, I'd need like 700A. The Prius inverter is _good_ with respect to voltage, but not quite enough amps to get all the torque out of it. I'm not sure what the max voltage on the Volt inverter is.

Are your boards orderable through JLCPCB?

-Matt
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

mdrobnak wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:39 pm Cool. I picked up the inverter, especially at that price. :)

I'm going to use it with a Remy HVH250-115-DOM, so in order to get max torque out of it, I'd need like 700A. The Prius inverter is _good_ with respect to voltage, but not quite enough amps to get all the torque out of it. I'm not sure what the max voltage on the Volt inverter is.

Are your boards orderable through JLCPCB?

-Matt
Well i havent tried to order them through JLCPCB. But lately i see one of my orders was put on hold in china :(. Maybe i will try to edit this so i can order them. Otherwise the parts are large enough to be soldered by hand. I just used Olimex chip. Drawing is made in Designspark. Every part has value in the drawing, you just have to click on it. Schematic is basicaly the same as Rev2 board with sensor and drive boards ommitted, since Volt takes care of that.

I am certain Volt inverter is able to provide 600A, but original cables are on the small side. I would recommend if making a single side you beef up the cables to 35mm2 or more. See the MBB600 IGBT datasheet below.

I am still not done designing my double row connection, but i would like 50mm2 per phase, because Leaf motor has cables of that size.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

Oh, if it's able to be hand-soldered then I just have to find somewhere in the USA to use. :) I just haven't done soldering in a while, and my skills are far from ideal at this point.

What's the max voltage that's usable in the Volt inverter?
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

mdrobnak wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:41 pm What's the max voltage that's usable in the Volt inverter?
I would not go above 420Vdc. IGBTs are rated for 600Vdc, but with all the spikes from switching... you dont know how much is too much.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

mdrobnak wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:41 pm Oh, if it's able to be hand-soldered then I just have to find somewhere in the USA to use. :) I just haven't done soldering in a while, and my skills are far from ideal at this point.
Well the finest parts are SO8 CAN bus chip and SOIC16 comparators and NAND gates. But i am able to solder them with my 1mm tip soldering station.
All resistors and caps are 0805 size and there are some DIP parts from older design. I intend to remodel it to full SMD once i get my car on the road.

If you move some current sensing resistors and inverter chip you can easily drive front or rear power section in solo. This also works with Chevy spark inverter which has only one IGBT bridge.

A
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

Ok, back to plan A for voltage then. :-D But that's still decent.

Thanks.

-Matt
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by jon volk »

So, is there any real reason I couldnt theoretically take two paralleled Volt inerters....in parallel for say 2k mps of potential if one could keep motor windings from melting and there was enough battery to support it?
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by slow67 »

jon volk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:19 pm So, is there any real reason I couldnt theoretically take two paralleled Volt inerters....in parallel for say 2k mps of potential if one could keep motor windings from melting and there was enough battery to support it?
Not any reason you cant at all. The biggest limitation is IGBTs don’t balance well (unlike mosfets). You could program some sort of brain to balance the pwm for pretty easily though.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

slow67 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:08 pm
jon volk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:19 pm So, is there any real reason I couldnt theoretically take two paralleled Volt inerters....in parallel for say 2k mps of potential if one could keep motor windings from melting and there was enough battery to support it?
Not any reason you cant at all. The biggest limitation is IGBTs don’t balance well (unlike mosfets). You could program some sort of brain to balance the pwm for pretty easily though.
How bad of balancing are we talking here? I'm wondering how much trouble its worth to get 100-200A more. (Motor probably wouldn't like much more than 800A)
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by slow67 »

mdrobnak wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:26 pm
slow67 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:08 pm
jon volk wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:19 pm So, is there any real reason I couldnt theoretically take two paralleled Volt inerters....in parallel for say 2k mps of potential if one could keep motor windings from melting and there was enough battery to support it?
Not any reason you cant at all. The biggest limitation is IGBTs don’t balance well (unlike mosfets). You could program some sort of brain to balance the pwm for pretty easily though.
How bad of balancing are we talking here? I'm wondering how much trouble its worth to get 100-200A more. (Motor probably wouldn't like much more than 800A)
Im not sure at the monent (but there have been papers written on this). It probably wouldn’t be too bad to build a brain inside each inverter to balance each igbt, and have an external brain for the motor control. I’m working on something like this for myself.

I do know my crappy Enova inverter parallels 2 IGBTs, but only uses 200amps per 600amp capable IGBT.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

Well for one i wouldnt take it to complete rated power. I would keep a little shy in case something jumped from one power section to the other. I think of keeping 1000A. I think this is what Leaf motor can realistically gobble up for a second or five :).

What do you mean about balancing IGBTs. Do you mean snubbers? That one is inside allready.
I keep thinking that induction can mess up my day if i dont keep cables the same length. But other than that what more is there?

I can have longer split cables with junction like 30cm from inverter like Paul Holmes suggested for paralelling DC controllers. That way any induction will get dampened inside the cable loop.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

This is how it looks with right side populated...
IMG_20200424_215332.jpg
And this one has left side populated...
IMG_20200413_142639.jpg
Next is boths sides!
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by jon volk »

My thought on paralleled, parallel inverters wasn't necessarily limited to a leaf motor. Both GM and Ford used multiple Rhinehart/Cascadia inverters for their 8 sec showcase drag car builds. I was thinking of a down and dirty budget version using Volt inverters. For what I have in mind, I could employ an iced liquid heat exchanger as used in turbocharged drag cars. In that application, you could take 300F air inlet temps and bring them down to 50-60F in a small package.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by slow67 »

arber333 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:34 pm Well for one i wouldnt take it to complete rated power. I would keep a little shy in case something jumped from one power section to the other. I think of keeping 1000A. I think this is what Leaf motor can realistically gobble up for a second or five :).

What do you mean about balancing IGBTs. Do you mean snubbers? That one is inside allready.
I keep thinking that induction can mess up my day if i dont keep cables the same length. But other than that what more is there?

I can have longer split cables with junction like 30cm from inverter like Paul Holmes suggested for paralelling DC controllers. That way any induction will get dampened inside the cable loop.
IGBT resistance goes down with higher temperature, so one with more load tends to get even more load. That is why you should run separate phase cables for each IGBT to the motor. 2 IGBTs might be ok, but with more it gets worse. If there is a brain monitoring each phase current separately, it should have no issue keeping them balanced.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

slow67 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:13 pm IGBT resistance goes down with higher temperature, so one with more load tends to get even more load. That is why you should run separate phase cables for each IGBT to the motor. 2 IGBTs might be ok, but with more it gets worse. If there is a brain monitoring each phase current separately, it should have no issue keeping them balanced.
I dont have an option of 2 additional brains on my sensors. At least not yet. Maybe i could use an averaging muxer chip for each of the measuring sensors and have it transmit fault signal if IGBTs would come too far apart...

May i ask what would happen if i would use 3x as short as possible copper/brass rails across both IGBT sides. I would solder a M8 brass nut in the middle and bolt phase cables in that way to the rails. What would the hazard be then? Wouldnt DC link cap absorb most of the diode backsurge?
This is the reason i want to reduce each section to 500A nominal.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by slow67 »

arber333 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:26 pm
slow67 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:13 pm IGBT resistance goes down with higher temperature, so one with more load tends to get even more load. That is why you should run separate phase cables for each IGBT to the motor. 2 IGBTs might be ok, but with more it gets worse. If there is a brain monitoring each phase current separately, it should have no issue keeping them balanced.
I dont have an option of 2 additional brains on my sensors. At least not yet. Maybe i could use an averaging muxer chip for each of the measuring sensors and have it transmit fault signal if IGBTs would come too far apart...

May i ask what would happen if i would use 3x as short as possible copper/brass rails across both IGBT sides. I would solder a M8 brass nut in the middle and bolt phase cables in that way to the rails. What would the hazard be then? Wouldnt DC link cap absorb most of the diode backsurge?
This is the reason i want to reduce each section to 500A nominal.

Running parallel phase cables for each IGBT allows better balancing across IGBTs (if they are the same length). It lets them naturally balance much better.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

slow67 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:10 pm Running parallel phase cables for each IGBT allows better balancing across IGBTs (if they are the same length). It lets them naturally balance much better.
Ok, how much parallel length should i use for 25mm2 phase cables? Do i use full 0.8m from the motor or can i use like 0.3m?
Actually i think i can just rout cables directly inside the motor. I would just need to seal them inside holes with black automotive glass sealant.
You think it is wise? What about EMI if i take out original cables? Should i wrap them in alu foil?

A
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by Isaac96 »

Hi Arber - I've been following this hoping to eventually use a Volt inverter in my car. Fortunately (???) I blew up another IGBT in my DMOC power stage, and it's at least $150 to get a new one, so I just ordered a Volt inverter for the same cost.
I've looked at this thread and also your Volt adapter board viewtopic.php?f=2&t=297 and am wondering which to use. I guess the dual IGBT would be nice just for the sheer power, since I've got lots of battery capacity. Gonna need a bigger fuse... :P
I love how clean the single PCB is on your dual board :)

Do you have any spare PCBs I could buy? If not I can just OSHPark a few (I'm in the US) and send them to anyone else here who needs one.

Thanks!
-Isaac
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

Isaac96 wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:11 pm Do you have any spare PCBs I could buy? If not I can just OSHPark a few (I'm in the US) and send them to anyone else here who needs one.

Thanks!
-Isaac
If you end up doing that, I'm definitely interested. Didn't know of OSHPark. :)

-Matt
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by arber333 »

Actually i have just one of this boards left. It is a rev2.
However i have a set of several new revision 2.3 interface boards here that include resolver interface. I didnt publish it yet because it is not tested.
Board is a little larger and it incorporates both connectors which are used for driver and sensor board on Rev2 controler. That way you dont need to split cables or anything with sensor board. I recommend this board if you decide to go Volt inverter route.
Additionally i included the inverter chip connected to BOTH driver connectors sou you can drive both IGBT bridges if you want to experiment.

Personally i think it would be awsome to test dual sides with ACIM, since you are not burdoned with FOC code requirements. You can set the OClimit low and observe how the current avaraging goes...
I updated my Github now to include the new files...
https://github.com/arber333/Ampera-inve ... -interface

Another way to go forward would be to use one of my new boards that are tested and proven to work. They still run on Olimex chip and are for troubleshooting purposes the same as Rev2 boards. I show them in the beginning of this thread.
Also they are on my Github
https://github.com/arber333/Johannes-co ... IGBT-board

You can still PM me if you want me to send one board to you.
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by johu »

slow67 wrote: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:13 pm IGBT resistance goes down with higher temperature, so one with more load tends to get even more load.
Thats not generally correct. So called punch-through (PT) IGBTs do as you say. But NPT types will increase Vcesat with temperature, so the hotter one takes less load.
Here is some random data sheet https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/elec ... et.pdf.pdf

You will see Vcesat=1.7V @ 25C and 1.9V @ 125C
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Re: VOLT/AMPERA inverter single controler dual IGBT drive

Post by mdrobnak »

Oops. Didn't look at the thread referenced, didn't realize that was not what I want to get. I want the new all-in-one stuff. :) Sorry for the noise.
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