Outlander rear motor and inverter

[FFMan]

Giving up on the Prius inverter?

With great reluctance i think so. Other than replacing the board i'm out of trouble-shooting steps, and i have spent probably 6 days on it, and i'm driving a 5m camper van as the daily and its wearing a bit thin in this weather.

I really have no idea what has gone wrong, other than by a process of elimination it must be the board, and as a solution with the smt soldering required i'm not convinced a replacement in my hands would be any better and lead times are long and not cheap. The rear inverter was £90 and may well drive better anyway. it'll be interesting to see, i always felt the prius inverter was holding back a bit.

It's a shame, i was proud of having got that on the road, but it just went into a gradual decline. who knows, the new approach might not be the answer. time will tell, hope to have a bench test rig running this weekend, and with a fair wind get it in the car a week later as not much needs changing and my prototype junction strips make rewiring a doddle.

[FFMan]

The schematic has U V W with 1 2 3 and the lower pinouts of the connectors has the according 1 2 3 markings. That way you can identify the phases and it says "Harness side" as an identifcation from where to look.

Bild_2023-12-05_151821977.png

great - i hadn't spotted that bit

[FFMan]

Oh, I linked the wrong PDF. The one I liked is for the front motor. You need this one:
http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander ... C00ENG.pdf

Same idea though.

thanks really useful - last piece of the wiring jigsaw

[FFMan]

In terms of regen, how does this work with this combo ? Is it all handled by the inverter or can it be controlled via can messages ?

Also, in terms of direction of spin, is this controlled by the sign on the torque request message ?

[rstevens81]

regen is commanded by the vcu, i.e. it request negative torque (whilst travelling forwards), yes direction of spin will be sign of torque request.
ps. shame the prius inverter turned out to be such a pita.
i forgot mr crasbe has a collection of 3d printable bits so you dont have to try and find the expensive oem cable...
https://www.printables.com/@crasbe_3607 ... ons/563327

[FFMan]

regen is commanded by the vcu, i.e. it request negative torque (whilst travelling forwards), yes direction of spin will be sign of torque request.
ps. shame the prius inverter turned out to be such a pita.
i forgot mr crasbe has a collection of 3d printable bits so you dont have to try and find the expensive oem cable...
https://www.printables.com/@crasbe_3607 ... ons/563327

thanks for the response, i expect all will become clear in bench testing this weekend, but as i want to get my car back on the road asap a follow up question. The only control message that has variable values seems to be:-

uint8_t torqueLoByte = lowByte(_torqueRequest);
uint8_t torqueHibyte = highByte(_torqueRequest);

// inverter torque request - < 20ms.
TxMsg.buf[0] = 0x0;
TxMsg.buf[1] = 0x0;
TxMsg.buf[2] = torqueHibyte;
TxMsg.buf[3] = torqueLoByte;
TxMsg.buf[4] = 0x0;
TxMsg.buf[5] = 0x0;
TxMsg.buf[6] = 0x03;
TxMsg.buf[7] = 0x0;
TxMsg.id = 0x287;

If i understood the response properly the sign on the torque request will set the direction of spin. Are you saying that if whilst the motor is saying spinning as a result of a negative torque request, if i then send it a positive value it will regen. Is it up to vcu code then to zero the torque rest as the rpm drops to zero to prevent a spin in the opposite direction or have i missed something else ?

> ps. shame the prius inverter turned out to be such a pita.

to be fair, my install had a tricky start during covid due to chip shortages. I still think if you want ultimate flexibility it's the way to go.


thanks

[rstevens81]

If i understood the response properly the sign on the torque request will set the direction of spin. Are you saying that if whilst the motor is saying spinning as a result of a negative torque request, if i then send it a positive value it will regen. Is it up to vcu code then to zero the torque rest as the rpm drops to zero to prevent a spin in the opposite direction or have i missed something else ?
thanks

YES that's basically what happens, obs you'll need control loops as if you keep requesting it for too long it will start to go backwards...also if you start to craw backwards your start reversing if your foot is off the pedal (regen)!!!

Personally i wouldn't get to caught up over regen at first, its NOT a golden goose of range extension, as if you have it set too high youll basically start ping-ponging energy into and out of the cells which just means youll loose range through losses.

btw, if you haven't read the code for existing vcu's i would look at https://github.com/aot93/Mini-E-VCU/blo ... c/main.cpp to get an ide what is going on.

ps i hate that bastard connector on the prius inverter

[FFMan]

YES that's basically what happens, obs you'll need control loops as if you keep requesting it for too long it will start to go backwards...also if you start to craw backwards your start reversing if your foot is off the pedal (regen)!!!

Personally i wouldn't get to caught up over regen at first, its NOT a golden goose of range extension, as if you have it set too high youll basically start ping-ponging energy into and out of the cells which just means youll loose range through losses.

btw, if you haven't read the code for existing vcu's i would look at https://github.com/aot93/Mini-E-VCU/blo ... c/main.cpp to get an ide what is going on.

ps i hate that bastard connector on the prius inverter

thanks for that code link, seems all in line with the base code i'm starting with.

> ps i hate that bastard connector on the prius inverter

i can't really solder smt so it was a challenge and maybe part of the issue in the end. the board suffered some corrosion after the cpu change. i didn't think of resealing it after a kind forum member changed the cpu and it furred up. i cleaned it all pretty good but i can't help wondering. Anyway, i'm not going to diss the path taken or the solution, but for now i feel a bit 'been there done that' and this feels simpler

i will be one of the few to drive prius inverter vs outlander inverter back to back in the same car, so will report back on performance change.

On another front, i already have an outlander charger installed doing dc-dc and charging so i'm ignoring all the charge related stuff that seems to be present in this inverter for now and using it only for drive. I know there is a can message clash but i'll keep them apart to address that.

cheers

[FFMan]

spent much of today putting together the wiring to bench test this combo.

Towards the end of the started testing, fist on 130v which i think is too low, but then on 360. Can't get the motor to spin at all at the moment.

The ena/disable (RSDN) line to the inverter weirdly seems to be -1v when NC, but gets pulled low by my code. As a test does it work just to tie this to ground or is the timing of this going low important ?

Am i right in thinking the torque request values seems to centre around 10,000 i.e. that is 0 torque. Does sign then set direction ? And what is the range then 8000-12000 etc ?

[aot93]

RSDN should be fine floating, pulling it low is no bad thing, timing is not relevant here as far as I know
Pulling it high will stop the inverter

360v should be good.

And yes you are correct 10,000 is 0 torque, anything above will be positive (forward) and bellow will be negative (backwards).
The generally accepted range is +-200nm which is scaled x10 so range as sent to the inverter would be 8000 to 12000.

Are you also sending the correct data to 0x285 , 0x286 , 0x371 at ~100ms?

I notice in your code above you seem to be sending 0x287 at 20ms, try at 50ms.

[Leo M]

[FFMan]

thank you - got it spinning just a few hours ago.

i tied rsdn low, do people use that or just rely on code ?

I started getting some odd voltage readings on the 0x289 message, which threw me a bit. My 373volts started reporting as 3446 though i checked the code against a couple of known good versions, and it had been reading sensibly earlier. Does it do something different when the inverter is running ? as opposed to idle ?

thank you for the help - shouldn't take too long to integrate into car in place of prius inverter.

[aot93]

Well done, what was the problem in the end? Be good to know so we can better help others in the future.

For RSDN - I have mine connected to simpBMS main contactor out via a relay, so it's only held low if simp is happy, this should give a more graceful shut down in the case of a fault.

As for voltage on 0x289 this is only readable until you send a torque command after this it goes to some as yet unknown range.
I don't think anyone has found out a way to get voltage back from the inverter after torque command.

[midway]

Well done, what was the problem in the end? Be good to know so we can better help others in the future.

For RSDN - I have mine connected to simpBMS main contactor out via a relay, so it's only held low if simp is happy, this should give a more graceful shut down in the case of a fault.

As for voltage on 0x289 this is only readable until you send a torque command after this it goes to some as yet unknown range.
I don't think anyone has found out a way to get voltage back from the inverter after torque command.

I read the voltage from the charger at 0x389-B0

[FFMan]

> What was the problem in the end ?

Not entirely sure as after i checked the wiring i then saw the post about the timing and slowed down my torque requests so 2 things changed at once. I did notice the current draw had been a steady 500ma, but as soon as it woke up it went to 750ma.

interesting on the 289 voltage, shame i lost 2 hours trying to fix that lol

i can get voltage from my shunt, the charger and the 2 x BMS so it's not like i need it from the inverter also, but it can serve as a useful check.

in terms of the inverter, is it in fact a mains charger as well, because i see reference to charging, but i also have an outlander charger and dc-dc module in the car. did these make up a pair, hence the can id overlaps or does the rear inverter include a charger ?

[aot93]

I would say the timing it's quite fussy about that.

The inverter is just that not a charger, in the OEM system the overlapping messages are in fact a kind HV interlock check.

[royhen99]

Probably not the timing. I tested from 1ms up to 500ms and the motor rotates, although very notchy above 100ms. The can log I have has 10ms timing although it is in bursts ( 5 -7 messages ) with longer gaps in-between.

The inverter is just inverter and juntion box. 0x285 and 0x286 message are used by inverter and charger and act as a heartbeat and interlock. If the messages for charger are sent on 0x286 then the inverter is effectivly disabled, this assume they are on the same canbus as in the Outlander.

[FFMan]

thanks

given my charger is in and working, and the motor is getting there on the bench, i'll be keeping these guys apart for now on different can channels

[FFMan]

i think my issue getting going was a dodgy resolver cable. looks like it had a scrape on extraction. I think i fixed it ok but will keep an eye on it.

when i supply values <10,000 the motor spins up & down on command, when change the code to go above 10,000 on the throttle, it takes ages to spin down or actually gradually increases in speed. Is this a known thing ?

It is possible I have the motor phasing mirrored, i couldn't work out what the diagrams above were trying to say as my connector fittings are mirror image of those shown, and i wasn't 100% sure what harness side meant exactly. So when looking into the connector on the motor and the inverter i have the phases straight through which i think is that the diagrams were saying.

[royhen99]

Forward and reverse should behave the same. Phase cables are straight through as in photos below.

[FFMan]

thanks for those lovely pictures, that is how mine is wired

i'll run some more tests

[FFMan]

I'm still getting some odd results here.

If i send a torque number of 9955 the motor spins counter clockwise and responds perfectly to throttle.

If i send 10022 then it spins the other way at approx the same speed, but does not spin down on zero throttle (and the torque request is 10,000), and the revs slowly rise until i stop sending 287 commands.

I've tried altering the timing of 287 commands from 15ms to 100ms and get the same result each time.

the variable i am splitting into highbyte and lowbyte is declared as int, so by default is signed, but as the value vary around 10,000 then i guess that doesn't matter anyway ?

now as it happens the direction of rotation that works, is what i need, so i could just press on but i am concerned i'm not seeing expected behaviour.

i've 'belled' the resolver cable all ok, and reversed it (it fits both ways but one end has an extra wire) and it's all the same.

any thoughts

[tom91]

0 torque means no speed change. an inverter does not like zero torque with an unloaded motor. they are very low inertia so it will err on the side of over currenting which causes the rpm to rise as it is not true zero torque.

You need have a way of not reversing the motor when regen-ing.

[royhen99]

Are you monitoring the CAN messages with Savvycan?
With no load it only requires about 0.5nm to accelarate to maximum ( I have mine limited to 5000 rpm ).
One thing I do, which was in a can log from an Outlander, is clear byte 6 of 0x287 if torque value is 10000. May not necessary but it disables the inverter if torque is 0.

[FFMan]

Are you monitoring the CAN messages with Savvycan?
With no load it only requires about 0.5nm to accelarate to maximum ( I have mine limited to 5000 rpm ).
One thing I do, which was in a can log from an Outlander, is clear byte 6 of 0x287 if torque value is 10000. May not necessary but it disables the inverter if torque is 0.

> Are you monitoring the CAN messages with Savvycan?

i couldn't get my chinese can to usb serial to work, and then i couldn't find a replacement to buy anywhere. can anyone suggest a decent reliable interface ?

> is clear byte 6 of 0x287 if torque value is 10000

interesting point, i do set byte 6 of 287 to zero if i press the brake, but maybe i'll do as you suggest also.

I did wonder if its a no load issue and i should just press on.

My inverter is part no 9410A067, does anyone know of there is any significant different to part no 9410A098 which looks the same ?