1984 Voltswagen Rabbit Prius Gen 3 ZOMBIE

[Gregski]

Ok the spring discussion is one I can actually contribute some knowledge to!

Spring rate aka stiffness aka the variable k is typically measured in weight per unit of distance. For freedom units, pounds per inch. Meaning how many pounds create one inch of deflection. That stiffness is a function of spring material, thickness of the coil, and structure/winding.

It's important to note: many cars, especially GM cars, use multirate springs, meaning the first few inches of deflection are a different rate than the rest of the spring. This is a huge factor in why cutting springs can change the rate, you're literally cutting off the softer section.

Also, heating a spring (whether intending to soften it or just to cut it) is going to impact the rate.

Also important to note: Springs need some amount of initial loading in order to actually function. An old mentor had a great story about a fish tank pump; placing it on a neoprene isolation pad did nothing to quiet it down. Placing it on a brick, and that brick on the neoprene pad properly loaded the neoprene and quieted the pump.

The "seesaw" or otherwise uncontrolled motion when modifying suspension typically comes from disrupting the equalization of the springs. Assuming for the sake of this that a car is a one mass, two spring system (think a brick supported from below by a spring at each end = looking at the car from the side) then there are two modes of vibration: up and down on both springs, and rotating (one spring up, the other down) any sort of motion of the brick is going to be a combination of those two modes. Spring equalization isolates those modes, so that a motion in one mode does not create motion in the other mode. While the mathematical proof is quite long, the solution is quite simple:

(k1)*(b1)=(k2)*(b2)

where:
k1= front spring rate
k2= rear spring rate
b1= horizontal distance between the front spring and the center of gravity
b2=horizontal distance between the rear spring and the center of gravity

Now actually implementing this gets complicated, because any time you have a spring that isn't completely vertical or acting directly on the axle there are other adjustments and math that has to occur. However, that formula is the basis of how you can get rid of "seesaw" or "porpoise-ing."

Wow, what a phenomenal write up, and in Fork Lift Terms as I call it (can we make this a sticky) I did snort a little when I read "For freedom units. pounds per inch."

Now separate from the spring issue: Greg I do not understand how you work this fast. I did a ton of work last summer in way too little time, but you're moving at damn near lightspeed.

I actually do want to answer this as One, it is About Me, and two it may help others out, so see if you agree or can relate.

• First, I am a very streaky player, I have Two Speeds, 100 MPH and STOP, ha ha, meaning I will go until I burn out then I won't even walk past my garage, some of you may relate to this, well here's a tip, feel zero guilt, it's just how we is wired! So coast it out and catch the next wave in!

• My kids are grown and in college, we are empty nesters = free time

• Progress not perfection, you've seen my work, I rather drive a car that is 80% done than be in a 15 year perpetual build and never drive the car while shooting for perfection

• Not my first rodeo, I have "built" or ruined a half a dozen of cars in my life so this comes easy, I no longer cry over having to cut or dent something up, this comes with time, I still remember the day I cut up my first brand new JEGS set of long tube headers so that they could clear one of the V8 spark plugs (I'm looking at you #5, ha ha)

• time friggen management, do the Jammie Jones thing, get out there in your underwear if you have to, I have wired half the truck in my pijamas and my slippers, thank god that was before the videos era, ha ha, some days I literally drill one hole in a bracket, then run some errands or something, the next day I drill another one, it all ads up

• and finally as my wife says via her Honey To Do Lists, you'll sleep when you're dead. Yes I edit the videos into the morning hours, but I enjoy it, I also watch boring non cat videos from Damien as you all do and Johannes shed updates, and have a long list of all other peers channels ( Ali Bro , EV DIY , EV Swap) I need to watch more, ahem in my free time of course

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

Wow, what a phenomenal write up,

Thank you!

I actually do want to answer this as One, it is About Me, and two it may help others out, so see if you agree or can relate.

• First, I am a very streaky player, I have Two Speeds, 100 MPH and STOP, ha ha, meaning I will go until I burn out then I won't even walk past my garage, some of you may relate to this, well here's a tip, feel zero guilt, it's just how we is wired! So coast it out and catch the next wave in!

Same. After Drag Week I pushed the car in the garage, thanked it for making it through the week, apologized for breaking it, and then shut the lights off for a month.

• My kids are grown and in college, we are empty nesters = free time

Yeah that helps. I have the "it's just me and the dog" factor helping in that regard.

• Progress not perfection, you've seen my work, I rather drive a car that is 80% done than be in a 15 year perpetual build and never drive the car while shooting for perfection

Fully agree. To quote the (very anti EV but appreciated my build) David Freiburger: "Don't get it right, just get it running"

• Not my first rodeo, I have "built" or ruined a half a dozen of cars in my life so this comes easy, I no longer cry over having to cut or dent something up, this comes with time, I still remember the day I cut up my first brand new JEGS set of long tube headers so that they could clear one of the V8 spark plugs (I'm looking at you #5, ha ha)

Also a fair point. I've learned so much on the '40 (certainly compared to the DC S10 I built in college) that I am itching to start another project. Stupid "financial responsibility" is all that's holding me back from turning my yard into a parking lot.

• time friggen management, do the Jammie Jones thing, get out there in your underwear if you have to, I have wired half the truck in my pijamas and my slippers, thank god that was before the videos era, ha ha, some days I literally drill one hole in a bracket, then run some errands or something, the next day I drill another one, it all ads up

Also a fair point, and something I've struggled with. Spending 2 hours driving to every hardware store and big box in the area looking for just the right part/tool versus just making do or ordering it online and moving on is a problem.

• and finally as my wife says via her Honey To Do Lists, you'll sleep when you're dead. Yes I edit the videos into the morning hours, but I enjoy it,

This is one that I both agree and disagree with. I fully agree with pouring tons of time into a project, but I've nearly killed myself from working too late into the night and making dumb mistakes. My rule for myself is no work after dinner. I get too tired and don't realize I'm too tired. Of course all of that is out the window when up against a deadline.

I also watch boring non cat videos from Damien as you all do and Johannes shed updates, and have a long list of all other peers channels ( Ali Bro , EV DIY , EV Swap) I need to watch more, ahem in my free time of course

Totally agree with this. I have a TV and old laptop in the shop and make a playlist of new videos to have on in the background while I'm working. Kill 2 birds with one stone, and also kinda feel like I've got others there working too, which is sort of nice (and definitely not parasocial ). Hoping to get my own channel moving later this year, but I've told myself that will start with the next build.

[Gregski]

Fully agree. To quote the (very anti EV but appreciated my build) David Freiburger: "Don't get it right, just get it running"

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

Not my first rodeo, I have "built" or ruined a half a dozen of cars in my life so this comes easy,

In as much as strangers can observe and judge each other, I'd say you're not good at anything (I dunno, maybe you're an okay father), but you're pretty good at almost everything. And you're really, really quick at looking at the jungle of challenges and then navigating quick paths to the pretty good. You'd probably be a shitty mechanic compared to a mechanic, but for things where there isn't a prescribed way of doing them, like being the first to shove a Prius into a Rabbit, your experience makes you just as fast as a mechanic. You don't just have many mediocre skills, you have the skill of integration to put the skills together. Which is like Volton, it gets better the more you hook up.

time friggen management, do the Jammie Jones thing, get out there in your underwear if you have to, I have wired half the truck in my pijamas and my slippers, thank god that was before the videos era, ha ha, some days I literally drill one hole in a bracket, then run some errands or something, the next day I drill another one, it all ads up

I think the biggest obstacle I have is, this is exactly my personality type. The brief moments of inspiration where I just want to go get a tiny thing done right now. Maybe that's one hole, maybe it balloons into an all-nighter. But it starts off with the motivation to just take a bite. And, since I don't have my own garage, my motivation is cut off at the legs. It has to be an event to even start working. For a couple years I was in someone else's garage 30 minutes away, and even now, it's in the parkade, but, I have to be discrete. It's under a car cover, I can't make much noise, I can't leave tools and parts out when I need a break (they'll get noticed or stolen), it still has to be car-shaped and under the cover when I'm done for the day. So doing 30 seconds of work takes 45 minutes of setup and teardown. I don't often feel like doing 45 minutes of work, especially if the first two or three things I try isn't the solution that's working and I need to pause.

Part of problem solving to me is in the physical layout of the things I'm doing. The tools I'm using for it, etc. That's a mechanical memory of where I'm at in the problem solving. If I keep having to clean all that up, in addition physically cleaning it up, it keeps wiping the slate clean and I mentally don't get to pause, I have to start/stop. It's like, pausing a movie vs. "remember the last thing you were watching and fast forward to that scene" every time.

To some degree everyone's like that, but, motivation-wise I know I'm a lot like that. I like taking many small bites. Maybe a long sequence of small bites, but not a big piece as a whole. I have motivation for the task, not the time. I don't think "I'm going to go spend 3 hours on my car" like a lot of people do, that feels like work. I think "I want to see if X might work". It's why I might get a whole day of spare time to work on my car and get nothing done, or not even start.

Blah blah philosophy blah.

[Gregski]

In as much as strangers can observe and judge each other, I'd say you're not good at anything (I dunno, maybe you're an okay father), but you're pretty good at almost everything. And you're really, really quick at looking at the jungle of challenges and then navigating quick paths to the pretty good. You'd probably be a shitty mechanic compared to a mechanic, but for things where there isn't a prescribed way of doing them, like being the first to shove a Prius into a Rabbit, your experience makes you just as fast as a mechanic. You don't just have many mediocre skills, you have the skill of integration to put the skills together. Which is like Volton, it gets better the more you hook up.

[EVSwap]

I think you're doing a damn fine job, Greg! Can totally relate to you and P.S.Mangelsdorf, I've ruined my own fair share of cars, working on the cold concrete of an apartment complex so I can make it to work the next day, or doing something dumb and hurting myself. Every EV converter that I've met has been like that. Just pure gearheads trying to make metal do something different. I can tell it's a lifelong addiction for you based on the way you explain things and work. I don't think you can call yourself a car guy unless you've taken a cutoff wheel to a set of springs!

If it were easy everyone would be doing it. They call it busting knuckles for a reason.

[lsh3rd]

...and while we are giving accolades, I'll say what I love most about Greg's channel is that I look at it and think, "I could probably do that as well". The level of fabrication is a step above what I've done in the past, but I believe thoroughly within reach of my skillset. Watching the channel is very inspiring - don't worry about details - just dive in and do it. It's all very approachable. Having said that, I don't think I'm planning to get a project that needs floor pans welded, but you never know. I saw a '49 Ford Coupe on FB Marketplace, and I immediately thought of P.S.'s Chevy and the fantasy of having vintage EV converted drag races. I have a huge soft spot for '49-'51 Shoebox Fords.

At some point I need to act on it - like Greg, I'm an empty nester with two in college, so time demands have eased. In my case, soon to have a graduate, but #2 has out-of-state tuition demands and the plans beyond also demand debt-free graduation, so spending on perceived frivolity is an issue. There are a few other pieces of the puzzle that need to fall into place first.

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

I look at it and think, "I could probably do that as well".

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

I saw a '49 Ford Coupe on FB Marketplace, and I immediately thought of P.S.'s Chevy and the fantasy of having vintage EV converted drag races. I have a huge soft spot for '49-'51 Shoebox Fords.

(chanting quietly) Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it!

[Gregski]

I saw a '49 Ford Coupe on FB Marketplace, and I immediately thought of P.S.'s Chevy and the fantasy of having vintage EV converted drag races. I have a huge soft spot for '49-'51 Shoebox Fords.

I hear it's a "California Car"

[Gregski]

84 VW MK1 Rabbit CV Drive Shafts

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

Loving your battery install btw. Looks great there. Shame it couldn't flush mount.

I think that's a good solution to most DIY EVers too. Don't plan for the perfect. Spend a little money, do it sooner. Get it to drive 30 miles at a time off a small pack that's fairly discretely installed. Spend extra and add the bigger pack later.

Sorry for jinxing you on the bracketry. If it makes you feel better, I discovered last night that the pinion seal to the diff that I spent several days sandblasted (well not purposefully, but, as I did a final, good, clean of the diff, primer and paint), is indeed a seal, but it seals against the torque tube/driveshaft that mounts to it. Otherwise it's an open hole. Diff bearings aren't sealed either, so, guess what 2 hours of sandblasting up against a wall does to the inside of a diff? Was wondering why it doesn't turn without a 2' wrench on it, and sounds crunchy. How do you fix this? Oh, with unobtanium-priced 50 year old one-car ever crush sleeves, bearings, gears, seals, etc. And 20 new things to learn, and the time to do them. Good news, this was my spare rear end, the good one. The crappy one is still on the car. Just need to start completely over and sandblast and paint it. Two steps forward, three steps back.

On that note, I see your spark shower at the start of your most recent vid... how sure are you that the shop glitter from the spark saw didn't propel straight into the transaxle's gaping glory hole?

[Gregski]

On that note, I see your spark shower at the start of your most recent vid... how sure are you that the shop glitter from the spark saw didn't propel straight into the transaxle's gaping glory hole?

Ah yes, the Chuck Norris Principle, my shop, my rules, so I tell the shop glitter where it can and can not go! ha ha

[Gregski]

and there was no shortage of Bad Ideas

six months later: Hey Matt have you seen my 24mm socket? Don't you lie to me!

[crasbe]

[Gregski]

8j875f.jpg

LoL

[Bratitude]

and there was no shortage of Bad Ideas


IMG_2974.JPG

uhg custom axles where not necessary!

[Gregski]

If it were easy everyone would be doing it. They call it busting knuckles for a reason.

you were saying...

[Gregski]

uhg custom axles where not necessary!

still work in progress, hit my favorite mom n pop steel shop today (not many of these left around these parts, these days, how about in your parts of the world?)

gonna slug one side and sleeve the other

that's a solid stock not a hollow pipe

[Bratitude]

still work in progress, hit my favorite mom n pop steel shop today (not many of these left around these parts, these days, how about in your parts of the world?)

gonna slug one side and sleeve the other

It’ll work great, but I just don’t think it was the right route to go I just think making stub flanges for the vw axles to bolt to would be a better move. Makes the Prius more “bolt in”

Regardless:

custom complicated projects

Driving > perfection

[Gregski]

It’ll work great, but I just don’t think it was the right route to go I just think making stub flanges for the vw axles to bolt to would be a better move. Makes the Prius more “bolt in”

Regardless:

custom complicated projects

Driving > perfection

not sure I follow, since either of the shafts are way too long as they are let alone if we were to bolt stubs to them, can you explain what you mean

[Gregski]

Just some simple machining and welding.

you take the Toyota cv joint/stub and cut it down, turn it round on the lathe. then make a flange with the 100mm bolt pattern that the vw cv joints have, and press that on to the turned down Toyota stub. Then get it tig welded.

Heck you could use the old flanges off the vw trans axle, as you already have them!



now you have a stub flange with the Toyota splines and the vw cv joint bolt pattern.

Now your stock vw cv axles bolt up to the Prius trans axle.

this gets rid of the cup holders ie the articulation, the Prius stubs go in and out about 3" if I cut the cups off and weld on a rigid flange what moves?

[Aragorn]

The VW inner CV's are bolted, but they have a movable element in the CV itself.

[Aragorn]

not sure I follow, since either of the shafts are way too long as they are let alone if we were to bolt stubs to them, can you explain what you mean

If you arrange the stubs so that they give the same overall spacing as the original VW trans, the stock VW shafts simply bolt right in like factory.

[Aragorn]

image.png (274.35 KiB) Viewed 612 times

VW box has two flanges in the diff as pictured for the CV's to bolt onto.

you take those stubs, weld them to the Toyota stubs and end up with something like this:

Which has prius on one end and VW flange on the other, and if its all measured up correctly, puts the flanges in the same place as the original VW flanges, allowing the original driveshafts to fit unmodified.