openinverter forum

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:54 am**

Kevin Sharpe wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:59 pm
arturk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:23 pm At $290 is somewhat expensive though.
Organise a group buy direct from ISA in Germany... at 12 pieces the pricing is *much* better than you're being quoted in distribution

Definitely interested in a helping to organize a group buy of these ISABELLENHÜTTE 1000A CAN Shunts. Will commit to purchase four units personally. Anyone else like to get in on a group purchase from ISA in Germany as Kevin Sharpe suggested? Please chime in or PM me!

Posted: **Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:33 am**

See here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=641 happy to put in another order and ship them out. Otherwise they are quite accessible and you can definitely get a good quote from them direct.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 5:58 pm**

Re: ISABELLENHÜTTE 1000A CAN Shunts could someone tell me what they are being used for? Are they required to get the DC current info in the web interface for the VCUs? It's just unclear why I'd want to buy it.

Also,have we put the info in this thread on the Wiki? If not, I'll try and get some of it in there this week (I've taken off of work to work on car stuff mostly)

-Matt

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 6:16 pm**

Yes a wiki page would be awesome. Just name it the same as this thread.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 6:30 pm**

mdrobnak wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 5:58 pm Re: ISABELLENHÜTTE 1000A CAN Shunts could someone tell me what they are being used for? Are they required to get the DC current info in the web interface for the VCUs? It's just unclear why I'd want to buy it.

It measures pack voltage at three locations, current, has a coulomb counter, is a BMS, and has lots more functions (see datasheet). It's a standard feature of Damien's conversions today and going forward. If you don't want to reinvent the wheel then invest the 160 euros

We'll document many of the features in the wiki;

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Isabellen ... te_Heusler

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 6:55 pm**

Kevin Sharpe wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 6:30 pm
mdrobnak wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 5:58 pm Re: ISABELLENHÜTTE 1000A CAN Shunts could someone tell me what they are being used for? Are they required to get the DC current info in the web interface for the VCUs? It's just unclear why I'd want to buy it.
It measures pack voltage at three locations, current, has a coulomb counter, is a BMS, and has lots more functions (see datasheet). It's a standard feature of Damien's conversions today and going forward. If you don't want to reinvent the wheel then invest the 160 euros

We'll document many of the features in the wiki;

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Isabellen ... te_Heusler

So the part that confuses me is - OK great, pack voltage measurement (in multiple places)..but no balancing. So it doesn't really replace a BMS in that respect. Coulomb counter / kWh used definitely useful. I guess multiple datapoints is not necessarily bad, so maybe I'll buy it anyway.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 7:20 pm**

Could you please move this discussion to a bespoke thread, thanks

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 7:31 pm**

Well you need your voltage and amp counter in your ev. But from them you get your power and energy left in battery.

If I didn't have one EVdisplay left to use I would definitely buy one of those sensors.

Posted: **Mon May 04, 2020 8:06 pm**

mdrobnak wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 6:55 pm So the part that confuses me is - OK great, pack voltage measurement (in multiple places)..but no balancing. So it doesn't really replace a BMS in that respect. Coulomb counter / kWh used definitely useful. I guess multiple datapoints is not necessarily bad, so maybe I'll buy it anyway.

It's very simple, you follow Damien's lead or choose your own path

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2020 5:59 am**

Are this contactor assemblys from Toyota HV battery of any good use?
Two contactors at both positive and negative lines, precharge relay with resistor and as far as I can say - with built in current sensor.

Why I'm asking? There is a guy, who sell toyota HV cells, and those assemblys are "leftovers no one needs"

and he sell them for ~30 euro, and as he says, he have got "many of those".
I've bought one and tested - it works.

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2020 9:15 am**

konstantin8818 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 5:59 am I've bought one and tested - it works.

How long did you run the contactors for? You need to run them for an hour or so at ~14V and measure the temperature rise to ensure they will work long term.

Great find even if they need external economizers

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2020 5:37 pm**

Kevin Sharpe wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:15 am How long did you run the contactors for? You need to run them for an hour or so at ~14V and measure the temperature rise to ensure they will work long term.

Great find even if they need external economizers

Will do. Just need to wait until summer refreshes in it's memory it is time to show up

My garage is opened to every winds. I've just detached economizers from kilovac contactors, because they were jumping like crazy. So I need to attache them back?

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2020 6:32 pm**

konstantin8818 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 5:37 pm So I need to attache them back?

If you run a contactor that requires an economizer without one then you'll burn out the coil.

Posted: **Fri May 22, 2020 9:04 pm**

You can also just send a PWM signal to them (this is essentially what the economiser does). Start at 100% and then drop it to whatever keeps it closed.

I use this code to achieve this:

Code: Select all

#define CONT_MAXPWM 2550 //start pwm value
#define CONT_MINPWM 1280 //end pwm value
#define CONT_PWMRATE 1 //rate of change

//setup
int c_pos_pwm = CONT_MAXPWM;

//contactor function, called from loop
    if (contactor[C_POS])
    {
      if (c_pos_pwm > CONT_MINPWM) c_pos_pwm -= CONT_PWMRATE;
      analogWrite(CONT_POS, (int)c_pos_pwm / 10);
    }
    else
    {
      analogWrite(CONT_POS, 0);
      c_pos_pwm = CONT_MAXPWM;
    }
    
    //same again for negative contactor, etc

Of course you need a suitable circuit to drive the coil. Best to keep the economiser. I run Kilovac contactors (with economiser), with a 10A relay to trigger them. The code above is used as an economiser for the 10A relay.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 am**

xp677 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:04 pm You can also just send a PWM signal to them (this is essentially what the economiser does). Start at 100% and then drop it to whatever keeps it closed.

Of course you need a suitable circuit to drive the coil. Best to keep the economiser. I run Kilovac contactors (with economiser), with a 10A relay to trigger them. The code above is used as an economiser for the 10A relay.

I'm barely understand this programming thing. Also contactor in this board activates true BTS117. Are they capable of handling PWM signal? Won't they overheat? I'll better solder those economisers back.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 11:08 am**

konstantin8818 wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 am
xp677 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:04 pm You can also just send a PWM signal to them (this is essentially what the economiser does). Start at 100% and then drop it to whatever keeps it closed.

Of course you need a suitable circuit to drive the coil. Best to keep the economiser. I run Kilovac contactors (with economiser), with a 10A relay to trigger them. The code above is used as an economiser for the 10A relay.
I'm barely understand this programming thing. Also contactor in this board activates true BTS117. Are they capable of handling PWM signal? Won't they overheat? I'll better solder those economisers back.

Most contactors require economizer functionality to minimise power consumption in the coil. This can be built into the contactor, an external circuit, or via software/hardware in the controller.

AFAIK none of the Open Inverter boards support software/hardware economizer functionality directly (they're just simple switched outputs) and therefore you need to implement this yourself with an external board or use a contactor that has the functionality built in.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 11:34 am**

Kevin Sharpe wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 11:08 am AFAIK none of the Open Inverter boards support software/hardware economizer functionality directly (they're just simple switched outputs) and therefore you need to implement this yourself with an external board or use a contactor that has the functionality built in.

I used to program Curtis inverter and that guy wasn't happy about economiser. There are parameters as pull in and hold voltages, it also detects any failure within any circuit. Really bullet-proof design as it turns out=)

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 11:38 am**

konstantin8818 wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 11:34 am
Kevin Sharpe wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 11:08 am AFAIK none of the Open Inverter boards support software/hardware economizer functionality directly (they're just simple switched outputs) and therefore you need to implement this yourself with an external board or use a contactor that has the functionality built in.
I used to program Curtis inverter and that guy wasn't happy about economiser. There are parameters as pull in and hold voltages, it also detects any failure within any circuit. Really bullet-proof design as it turns out=)

The great thing about open source is that you can change anything you want. Indeed, Damien and Johannes are using different contactor driver chips iirc. My approach is to use contactors with built in economizers and that's something we recommend on our courses

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 12:18 pm**

BTS117 contains a load of extra components for the various protection measures, not sure how it would handle PWM, I imagine it would depend on your switching frequency.

The economisers which come with the Kilovac contactors are best suited for the job.

I was advised (probably in another thread on this forum) not to use transistor-based switching for the power input to the economisers on these contactors. Which is why I used a small relay.

The PWM code above is just there to reduce the power consumption of that relay. It reduced the relays coil power by about 1W, which is a good result for just a few lines of code.

Posted: **Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm**

xp677 wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:18 pm The PWM code above is just there to reduce the power consumption of that relay. It reduced the relays coil power by about 1W, which is a good result for just a few lines of code.

Just to be clear, was that code tested on non modified open inverter hardware and if so which boards?

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 12:27 pm**

I'm struggling to find one of the commonly used Panasonic relays from the Leaf or Ampera for the precharge on my project - at least at what feels like a sensible price. Mostly £30-40 used from China. Is there any reason I couldn't use something like this? Not much more and it has the advantage of being new: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/solid-st ... s/0352496/

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 9:17 pm**

Those are only suitable for AC. The nature of these units is that once triggered, they remain on until the current falls to zero. in a DC application, this would make them impossible to turn off. This is what they mean by "zero crossing", they turn off as the AC waveform crosses zero.

One example of use for these SSRs is for intensity control (dimming) of high powered resistive lamps. If you trigger them with a pulse, they will remain on for the remainder of the AC half-cycle. Thus the power transferred is the area under the curve.

I used the EV200 contactors for my precharge - overkill for the application, but they are available second hand at reasonable cost.

DC-rated switchgear will always be more complex and expensive compared to that designed for AC, as any arc created during an opening event will not self-extinguish. Features such as arc chutes, vacuum chambers, plated contacts, magnets, etc are added to higher voltage DC rated contactors to help extinguish this arc. Also remember when installing them that they are often polarity-sensitive.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 7:29 am**

I have a bunch of the 800VDC/100A rated small contactors up for sale here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=712 if you can switch off after pre-charge is complete you don't even need an economiser.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 3:53 pm**

xp677 wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:17 pm Those are only suitable for AC. The nature of these units is that once triggered, they remain on until the current falls to zero. in a DC application, this would make them impossible to turn off. This is what they mean by "zero crossing", they turn off as the AC waveform crosses zero.

One example of use for these SSRs is for intensity control (dimming) of high powered resistive lamps. If you trigger them with a pulse, they will remain on for the remainder of the AC half-cycle. Thus the power transferred is the area under the curve.

I used the EV200 contactors for my precharge - overkill for the application, but they are available second hand at reasonable cost.

DC-rated switchgear will always be more complex and expensive compared to that designed for AC, as any arc created during an opening event will not self-extinguish. Features such as arc chutes, vacuum chambers, plated contacts, magnets, etc are added to higher voltage DC rated contactors to help extinguish this arc. Also remember when installing them that they are often polarity-sensitive.

Thank you. Really useful answer. Learning a lot here!

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 3:55 pm**

jnsaff wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:29 am I have a bunch of the 800VDC/100A rated small contactors up for sale here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=712 if you can switch off after pre-charge is complete you don't even need an economiser.

Thank you. Already have a couple of contactors on their way from you! Will let you know on these.

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