openinverter forum

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:52 pm**

Took a bit of a trip today to test various fast chargers. At first none worked which was down to a quirk in the firmware (needs fixing in inverter firmware also!). With that fixed I tried various stations which did work but then found one that didn't. It's the same 60 kW charger that I have often used in Kirchheim but at a different location close to here.

Basically it would initiate charging including closing the vehicle relay. Now that I think of it the sound was a bit faint but I'm not sure. The environment was quite noisy. Then after quite some wait time it opened the relays again and showed attached error message "TESTVOLTAGE N REACHD (0...04)"

So then I thought I should do a CAN log. Nevermind the BMS messages also in there.

What I saw at first glance was a 135A output capability and then an increasing output voltage that creeped up 474V. Fits the error message quite well. So I wonder whether it failed to actually close the relays and then found itself charging into an open circuit.

Fast charges before and after this worked flawlessly and at full power, so I doubt it has much to do with the car.

UPDATE: just called the support hotline and apparently someone charged after me, so could be a compatibility issue.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:19 pm**

Please take a picture of the type label on the charger for future reference next time you are there.

I would judge it as efacec ?

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:25 pm**

Will do. Does this help in the meanwhile? https://www.goingelectric.de/stromtanks ... e-1/10838/

EVTEC - espresso&charge

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:30 pm**

I've seen conditions where the voltage flys up to max if the contactors are not closed properly.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:44 pm**

So then that's probably what happens. Maybe they ramp up the voltage into the contactor or something stupid like that. The economizer charges up and the relay ends up not closing via just the 40 Ohm resistors.

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:52 pm**

I looked into this again. I added more capacity to the economizer and went back to the charging station. Still not charging but the message looked different. Forgot what it was. Then I bridged the economizer and again it didn't charge this time with a different message. Don't know whats up with that station. Went to a triple charger afterwards just to check and that still worked fine.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:41 pm**

Jack Bauer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:30 pm I've seen conditions where the voltage flys up to max if the contactors are not closed properly.

I think this is what is happening with mine, though not sure why, do you mean close then open again. Contactors are Gigavacs with built in economisers.
If I put 12v in pin 2 and gnd to 10 and 1 they close with a nice clunk.

At the station I also hear the clunk but there's obviously an issue, I don't hear them open again for at least 10 seconds.

09:15:11.824 -> JLD505: 347.265v 0.04A 29.1Ah 0.0kW 9.8kWh OUT1:1 OUT2:1 OUT3:1 IN1:1 IN2:0 CHG T: 52

09:15:11.824 -> CAR: Protocol:2 Target Voltage: 393 Current Command: 4 Target Amps: 50 Faults: 0 Status: 1 kWh: 9.82 Time:0:0:53.8
09:15:11.824 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 347 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5400 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.21
09:15:11.936 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 352 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.121
09:15:12.048 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 359 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.221
09:15:12.122 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 361 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.321
09:15:12.229 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 371 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.421

09:15:12.303 -> JLD505: 357.567v -0.39A 29.1Ah -0.1kW 9.8kWh OUT1:1 OUT2:1 OUT3:1 IN1:1 IN2:0 CHG T: 53

09:15:12.341 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 378 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.521
09:15:12.454 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 385 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.621
09:15:12.530 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 394 Current: 1 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.721
09:15:12.638 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 398 Current: 1 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 101 Time:0:0:53.821
09:15:12.751 -> EVSE: Measured Voltage: 393 Current: 0 Time remaining: 5340 Status: 100111 Time:0:0:53.921
09:15:12.751 -> EVSE:stop charging.

I guess the first rise and fall is a test.

I guess I'm going to need to get even more sketchy and get the lid off my contactor box at the charging station, probably do some more driveway faffing again first.

Do people tend to use the 12v supply from the stations for closing the contactors? A pair of gigavacs will draw 3 or 4 amps to close?

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:53 pm**

I use Nissans contactors in that way. They come with a neat sequencer, i.e. the 2 relays don't switch on at the same time. And an economizer.

I believe Damien uses Kilovacs in the same way

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:22 pm**

Yes, with CHAdeMO the station is supposed to power the CHAdeMO contactors (so it can also control/open them).
Supply should be 2A.
I used 2x the LEV200A4NAF

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:43 pm**

My contactors have the switch inside, I could wire it so the second cant close until the first has. Worth a shot I guess

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:39 am**

First voltage rise and fall is called cable check. Basically verifies cable and vehicle inlet integrity.

Voltage of many converters will fly up if attempting to charge into an open circuit. Many are not exactly stable in voltage mode as they are built to be a current based device.

I would monitor the 12v going to the contactors to see if it’s collapsing or something weird. I have seen 12v supplies ether broken, underrated, or other charger auxiliaries on the 12v line. I’d maybe recommend not using the 12v from the charger to power the contactors but instead use it to drive a relay that drives the contactors for the above reasons.

But I will say I’m less confident in CHAdeMO these days so just suggestions only from me.

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:09 pm**

Yes that makes sense. I've never had the issue again after putting Nissans sequencer in there but we did have a similar problem in the UK. Maybe the cable was too long or had bad joints. Most chargers closed the relays anyway, some seemed not to.

Do you know if OEMs rely on the 12V supply alone to close contactors?

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:37 pm**

I tried to source 12V from evse to run VCU and contactors, but it was unreliable presence. In the end i connected directly to car 12V power. I used one small relay to trigger 12V for VCU on "cable inserted" signal and another relay to pull in both contactors.

Later on i got one 3A LED driver and replaced its input cap for 450Vdc rated one. I connected it to HV from battery. I did have to connect its output GND to car chassis for signals to work. That did the job and i dont have any problems on regular chademo stations.

Posted: **Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:40 pm**

Some subjects just keep reminding you of their relevance. Plugged in poor mans charger today and as it ramped up it suddenly shut off and the fuse tripped. IGBT module blown, knowing what I know now probably because of over voltage.

So broke out rich mans charger only to see that it reported 0V on the battery side despite me hearing a clunk from below the car.
So I hooked up a lab supply to the contactor pins instead. Started out at 12V which resulted in a very tired "clunk" and no voltage on the output. At 13V I got a very rich clunk and voltage at the output. Turns out the threshold is 12.5V. At that voltage the sequencer also acts slower, leaving like 500ms between the relays as opposed to about 100ms at 13V. At 12.4V the sequencer never turns on the second relay.

A possible explanation is temperature. It is almost 40°C today so that might affect turn on voltage. I upped the 12V supply of rich mans charger to 13.8V now and it works. The relays will see about 1V less because of ULN2003 and cable run.

I wonder what would happen on a proper rapid charger today.

Posted: **Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:53 pm**

The Chademo spec, saying you're supposed to turn on two 125A 500VDC contactors on just 2 amps is very demanding in my opinion. You need very carefully chosen components to achieve it. I believe CCSKnowItAll on this forum recommended to use an auxiliary relay for Chademo to get around that particular mess.

Posted: **Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:37 pm**

celeron55 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:53 pm The Chademo spec, saying you're supposed to turn on two 125A 500VDC contactors on just 2 amps is very demanding in my opinion. You need very carefully chosen components to achieve it. I believe CCSKnowItAll on this forum recommended to use an auxiliary relay for Chademo to get around that particular mess.

I think i already declared i use 24Vac 8A dpdt relay to start both contactors. It works really well with 12V and doesnt heat up too much. Also to supply my VCU i use additional 3A 230Vac to 12V LED driver because i dont trust 12v from evse.
For contactors i went with two panasonic 125A contactors salvaged from VW Golf GTE pack. They clamp with 12V at 0.5A each, so it is possible.

Posted: **Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:26 pm**

celeron55 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:53 pm The Chademo spec, saying you're supposed to turn on two 125A 500VDC contactors on just 2 amps is very demanding in my opinion. You need very carefully chosen components to achieve it. I believe CCSKnowItAll on this forum recommended to use an auxiliary relay for Chademo to get around that particular mess.

That must be why Nissan sequences them relays. Didn't try to record peak current yet but hold current is just 250 mA.

Anyway, I think something is dodgy with my wiring. Just tested chargers in the area and just one worked. Will check tomorrow.

Posted: **Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:10 pm**

Get any where?
I've rewired so that the contactors are closed with the cars 12v and still the same issue.
Just while I debug, I have the car 12v going to the coils of the contactors and a relay, the MCU is the other side of the coil of the relay (OUT2, open drain)

The Start 1 and Start 2 from the station are just used on the MCU now, IN1 (start 1) active high, IN2 (Start 2) active low.
Happens too fast to monitor with the multimeter, but I put it across one of the contactors in continuity mode and did get a beep, but again the log looks like the contactors don't stay closed.

I had another multimeter on the socket side of the contactors and I saw the voltage climb and above my battery voltage, so it must have been the stations voltage.

Software is https://github.com/Isaac96/CHAdeMOSoftware that numerous other's have used, I've previously had a couple of successes with this setup, but no more.

Contactors stay closed with my 1.5amp 12v supply and savvycan sending out some can messages.

Pretty much out of ideas how to debug further.

Posted: **Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:22 pm**

Yes, got mine fixed with a pair of Gigavacs driven directly by the rapid charger 12V https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopi ... 023#p43023

Posted: **Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:31 am**

I'm using exact same contactors for chademo.

Hooked it up at home again, sending can bus messages that match my voltage. Contactors stay closed. I've added code that monitors the internal switch in the contactors now, so will have that info in the log next time. Doesn't make sense, but maybe will narrow down where to look.

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