1984 Voltswagen Rabbit Prius Gen 3 ZOMBIE

[Gregski]

84 VW MK1 Rabbit DIY EV Conversion - Front End Height

If any of you can recommend some adjustable shocks/springs I would really appreciate it.

Project Counter: Day 57

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

"Springy Boingy type or whatever you guys call those things."

They did, in fact, not call it those things.

...

Any chance that the diesel that came out of it weighed a lot more than some gas version or the same, that might have smaller springs?

...

The answer to me is clear. As your lead fabricator, the obvious solution is to remove the springs and use an angle grinder to thin them out. Not cut them short, but shave the tops and bottoms off of the round cross sections of the spring material itself all the way down the coil. Then you'll end up with a spring the same diameter, the same length, but with a softer spring force from the thinner wire.

[Gregski]

Any chance that the diesel that came out of it weighed a lot more than some gas version or the same, that might have smaller springs?

that's a super idea, though I doubt going from heavy duty to regular duty OEM springs would yield a greater drop than 1" I once played that game on a second gen Camaro, one thing's for sure you can loose your mind in this game, for instance with or without AC offers different spring part numbers

[RetroZero]

I got a universal kit and adjusted them once fitted. The main issue to avoid is the travel when they are at their lowest point, ie, wheels lifted off the ground. The driveshafts need to clear the chassis.

[Gregski]

as my ol' boss usedta say: give me solutions don't give me problems!

What? I can't help myself, this is what I think of when I look at those things:

Project Counter: Day 60

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

I'm not sure that cutting springs was the correct solution here.

I'm fuzzy on it, but, IIRC cutting springs does 2 things:

1 - For the same weight on the spring, it starts lower. Obviously, as you cut a ring off.

2 - For the same weight on the spring, it's stiffer (17% stiffer in your case, because you removed 17% of the spring).

So you're starting lower, but you're also going to sag less under weight than you were. And it'll travel less as you move.

This means cutting springs is an okay solution to when you want the same car to just be lower to the ground (it makes it a bit stiffer, but it would have to, since you're lower to the ground you don't want it bouncing down as low as it used to, it doesn't have enough clearance anymore). But it's not a great solution when you change the weight of the vehicle and want it to ride the same as before (much less common). To do that you need softer springs, which I think means springs made from thinner cross section.

Don't take that as gospel. Every time I hear this described it's easy to justify anything in my head. So much bro-science. But that's my best impression.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210604061 ... ng-springs

It's hard to find advice on what to do with springs when you lighten a vehicle's load, because almost no one's doing that. They're lowering because they want the same car to ride lower.

[Gregski]

I'm not sure that cutting springs was the correct solution here.

I'm fuzzy on it, but, IIRC cutting springs does 2 things:

1 - For the same weight on the spring, it starts lower. Obviously, as you cut a ring off.

2 - For the same weight on the spring, it's stiffer (17% stiffer in your case, because you removed 17% of the spring).

So you're starting lower, but you're also going to sag less under weight than you were. And it'll travel less as you move.

This means cutting springs is an okay solution to when you want the same car to just be lower to the ground (it makes it a bit stiffer, but it would have to, since you're lower to the ground you don't want it bouncing down as low as it used to, it doesn't have enough clearance anymore). But it's not a great solution when you change the weight of the vehicle and want it to ride the same as before (much less common). To do that you need softer springs, which I think means springs made from thinner cross section.

Don't take that as gospel. Every time I hear this described it's easy to justify anything in my head. So much bro-science. But that's my best impression.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210604061 ... ng-springs

It's hard to find advice on what to do with springs when you lighten a vehicle's load, because almost no one's doing that. They're lowering because they want the same car to ride lower.

thanks Matt I appreciate it, I know this fact, if you ask 3 car guys a Suspension Question, you will get 5 opinions, lol

the bottom line is this car is a P.O.S. and if the ride is too stiff nothing stops me from replacing these with some aftermarket adjustable "thinner" spring ones, right?

[lsh3rd]

Right, exactly... there's literally nothing to lose here. If the springs turn out too stiff, I think an alternative might be to look and see if the gas Rabbit has weaker springs than the diesel and grab a set of them (and probably cut them also). Otherwise you are looking at a significantly more expensive set of coil overs.

I'm dailying a car with cut springs, but in my case, nothing about the front suspension belongs to the car. '86 Mustang with '04 Mach 1 springs/Bilsteins, 98 rack, 94-98 spindles, 89 T-bird control arms, and probably 3 other things I'm forgetting.

[Gregski]

I'm dailying a car with cut springs, but in my case, nothing about the front suspension belongs to the car. '86 Mustang with '04 Mach 1 springs/Bilsteins, 98 rack, 94-98 spindles, 89 T-bird control arms, and probably 3 other things I'm forgetting.

obviously...

[Gregski]

you ever had to buy a whole pack of tools just for one tool ?

[Aragorn]

Cutting springs gets a bad rap, but its one of those "it depends" things.

Some springs like those shown here, are parallel at one or both ends. Cutting those (on the parallel end!) is generally fine, and it can work fairly well. As above, you end up with a shorter spring and a little bit more spring rate, generally pretty much exactly what you want for mild lowering. An old car like this is probably very softly sprung anyway and a bit more stiffness is a good thing. Ofcourse you cant get the exact spring rate and starting length that you might need.

Also, if you go too far the one issue that can occur is the spring ends up loose at full damper extension, which is obviously dangerous as the spring can come out of the seat if the suspension gets unloaded over a bump or something. This is where the bad rap comes from, folks cutting off 2 or 3 coils to get the car slammed into the ground. The proper fix for that is either a shorter damper, or a progressively wound spring. That means the spring starts out soft, but is designed in such a way that as it compresses down, part of it becomes coil bound and the effective spring gets shorter with a much higher rate.

Many cars however have springs with a "pigtail" on both ends. If you cut that style of spring, it will no longer safely seat into the spring platform.

[Gregski]

Also, if you go too far the one issue that can occur is the spring ends up loose at full damper extension, which is obviously dangerous as the spring can come out of the seat if the suspension gets unloaded over a bump or something. This is where the bad rap comes from, folks cutting off 2 or 3 coils to get the car slammed into the ground. The proper fix for that is either a shorter damper, or a progressively wound spring. That means the spring starts out soft, but is designed in such a way that as it compresses down, part of it becomes coil bound and the effective spring gets shorter with a much higher rate.

you absolutely nailed it here, I just want to add that on my truck which has aftermarket shorter springs (not ones that I cut) they tend to fall out of their cups/seats any time I jack up the front end, so you have to remember to reseat them properly when lowering the truck back down, this is one of the reason I want to try 2" drop spindles on that truck instead of 2" shorter coil springs

[Aragorn]

2" drop spindles and 2" springs should be the default for a C10

You can investigate shorter dampers or even limiting straps. Some modified 4WD's have springs that come out of the seats by design, but they have some sort of cone arrangement to guide the spring back into position when it comes back down.

[Gregski]

2" drop spindles and 2" springs should be the default for a C10

My brotha from anotha motha! Restoring Rusty

[Aragorn]

urgh i really want a squarebody. Unfortunately while they're literally found like weeds on every street corner in the US, they're like rocking horse poop here and go for silly money.

[Gregski]

urgh i really want a squarebody. Unfortunately while they're literally found like weeds on every street corner in the US, they're like rocking horse poop here and go for silly money.

Facts! I bought mine for $1,500 from the grandson who's grandpa just passed, this happened to be years ago right before they became famous, I sold it years later for $9,500 in an hour to buy our daughter a Mazda 3. My wife was upset I didn't ask enuff for it, I did an LS Swap on that truck and it ran like a bat out of hell.

Squarebody LS Swap

[Gregski]

Taday is gonna be a good day !

[EVSwap]

One grinder for cutting one for grinding. That's how you know you're really fabricating.

[arber333]

, this is one of the reason I want to try 2" drop spindles on that truck instead of 2" shorter coil springs

I am sorry to be late to the party...
In the old days (i am not that old) i remember autotuning folks saying how to cheaply lower the car.

You wrap the installed spring by moist rags and identify the spot where you must weaken the spring to get the chassis lower by an inch or so. Then you apply torch to heatup this spot to yellow and keep the rest of the spring wrapped and cooled. When you heat the spot on the spring enough you will see the spring letting go. Mind you this process is irreversibe as far as homeowner is concerned. But you keep your spring length and socket installation OEM.

[arber333]

If any of you can recommend some adjustable shocks/springs I would really appreciate it.

I used 3cm alu pads with rear shocks as my EV weight distribution changed from 68:32 to 50:50. It caused a weird front axle geometry and funny drive trough turns.
When i put the pads at the rear the front actually lowered enough so toe-in and camber were fine-ish...

[jrbe]

These come with soft but fun to drive suspensions. But when you start changing front to rear weight distribution and cut springs you can throw off the ride frequency. If it feels like a seesaw over bumps at certain speeds the suspension frequency is off. This is kind of old school for suspension tuining but it works well.

I'd recommend getting coilover sleeves with spring weights to match your ideal spring frequency (probably 1 to 1.25hz for this) with your new weight and your ideal smooth cruise speed. You'll need to know the weights of the front, rear, and a decent idea about corner suspension weights.

https://usrallyteam.com/content/tech/su ... ulator.xls the first tab has the spring rate calculations. You don't have to get into the rest of the tabs except motion ratio if you want.

Then for coilover sleeves you can piece one together from Summit or order a kit from someone like ground control.

Having coilovers also means you can adjust the ride heights back to stock or adjusted how you want it to drive. Tuning the roll center (adjusting ride heights) front and rear sets the balance of the car and whether it understeers / oversteers at the limit.
And as you lower the car the roll centers can quickly go wonky making the car roll a bunch. It's a balance to get the look you want (if you want) with a decent ride.

The downside of coilovers are the need to corner balance with scales or by feel. If you can feel a slightly low tire while driving you can likely do it by feel, similar feeling if it's not balanced.
The other is like you mention with the cut spring, the spring ending up offset to the spring hat and crashing back into place with a bang. Depending on the design you can sometimes ziptie the spring to the spring hat so it stays seated.
You can also occasionally get the suspension "crash" feeling of the spring hat to upper strut bearing gap going away and hitting as the suspension comes back down. Helper springs are very soft springs to take up this gap but get taken up softly and without the crash as the suspension comes down.
Having suspension springs without preload gives less of a pogo stick feeling to the suspension.

A lot of people try to tune out weird handling with the shocks but miss the spring frequency part of the equation.

Maybe more than you want but that's how to help get rid of weird handling / strange ride feeling.

[Gregski]

One grinder for cutting one for grinding. That's how you know you're really fabricating.

some day, the Holy Trinity of Carnage aka the HTC shall be complete

[Gregski]

I am sorry to be late to the party...
In the old days (i am not that old) i remember autotuning folks saying how to cheaply lower the car.

You wrap the installed spring by moist rags and identify the spot where you must weaken the spring to get the chassis lower by an inch or so. Then you apply torch to heatup this spot to yellow and keep the rest of the spring wrapped and cooled. When you heat the spot on the spring enough you will see the spring letting go. Mind you this process is irreversibe as far as homeowner is concerned. But you keep your spring length and socket installation OEM.

Hello old man, I will speak up so you can hear us (jk) indeed that has been the Rite of Passage on American Low Riders for years (minus the moist rags) and don't ask me what they do to leaf springs, ha ha

[arber333]

. If it feels like a seesaw over bumps at certain speeds the suspension frequency is off. This is kind of old school for suspension tuining but it works well.

Hmmm... could be thats why i feel like suspension vibrates 1/2s after i dove through a pothole. Or is it just old worn 1992 bushings... i will get back to you...

[lsh3rd]

You wrap the installed spring by moist rags and identify the spot where you must weaken the spring to get the chassis lower by an inch or so. Then you apply torch to heatup this spot to yellow and keep the rest of the spring wrapped and cooled. When you heat the spot on the spring enough you will see the spring letting go. Mind you this process is irreversibe as far as homeowner is concerned. But you keep your spring length and socket installation OEM.

Heating the springs to the point where they bend will destroy the tempering of the spring significantly weakening it. Essentially heating something cherry red and letting it cool down slowly will anneal the steel. It's a very bad idea.