AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
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AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
Hi All,
I’ve been observing for a while, and watched nearly all of Damien’s videos and quite a few of Johannes’ videos. I have the technical background to deal with this from the electrical and mechanical sides but am no expert. All I know about inverters is what I learned here. The following is my plan for my next car, submitted to you for critique. You know what they say about plans, they rarely survive the light of day.
Function: My short weekly trips, as I’m retired. Maybe I’ll go hog wild and drive every other day. I love autocross and live in severe twisties with no curbs or rails. Race prepping a car here is practically a safety requirement. I’ll install ABS+traction control. Regen must be AWD to panic stop on anything but a straight line on gravel.
Car: BMW 650i preferred, but I like the Mercedes R107 SL/SLC because a Tesla drive would drop right in.
Therefore, for improved performance in driving mountain twisties, racing autocross, and driving on slick roads; I want to install a minimum motor up front to give AWD up to moderate speeds, relatively easy to install, and not limit the top speed. Toyota’s Q211 MGR (motor generator rear) (stamped 2FM) from ~2015+ Highlander, RX400, RX450 has 50kw, and the Q210(?) from the earlier generation has 40kw. There are smaller motors too, if full regen is actually less power than that.
The front motor only needs to be powerful enough to give the desired regen. Anyone know how much that would be?
The rear drive would be a Lexus L210 (IS300h) rwd transmission or a Tesla Model S front SDU in the rear. Either one gives well over 200hp.
If using the Lexus L210 (2 motors) and Q211 (one motor), which inverters and control boards should I use? Does one Zombieverter run all three, or do I need a secondary board?
If using a Tesla SDU in the rear, I’d use the drop in VCU, but what would I do to control the Q211?
(side note: An offroad version is to use three Q211 motors laid out like Tesla AWD, have 201hp, lose power at 45mph and slowly get up to maybe 60mph. That would do well for a mini farm truck or quad.)
I’ve been observing for a while, and watched nearly all of Damien’s videos and quite a few of Johannes’ videos. I have the technical background to deal with this from the electrical and mechanical sides but am no expert. All I know about inverters is what I learned here. The following is my plan for my next car, submitted to you for critique. You know what they say about plans, they rarely survive the light of day.
Function: My short weekly trips, as I’m retired. Maybe I’ll go hog wild and drive every other day. I love autocross and live in severe twisties with no curbs or rails. Race prepping a car here is practically a safety requirement. I’ll install ABS+traction control. Regen must be AWD to panic stop on anything but a straight line on gravel.
Car: BMW 650i preferred, but I like the Mercedes R107 SL/SLC because a Tesla drive would drop right in.
Therefore, for improved performance in driving mountain twisties, racing autocross, and driving on slick roads; I want to install a minimum motor up front to give AWD up to moderate speeds, relatively easy to install, and not limit the top speed. Toyota’s Q211 MGR (motor generator rear) (stamped 2FM) from ~2015+ Highlander, RX400, RX450 has 50kw, and the Q210(?) from the earlier generation has 40kw. There are smaller motors too, if full regen is actually less power than that.
The front motor only needs to be powerful enough to give the desired regen. Anyone know how much that would be?
The rear drive would be a Lexus L210 (IS300h) rwd transmission or a Tesla Model S front SDU in the rear. Either one gives well over 200hp.
If using the Lexus L210 (2 motors) and Q211 (one motor), which inverters and control boards should I use? Does one Zombieverter run all three, or do I need a secondary board?
If using a Tesla SDU in the rear, I’d use the drop in VCU, but what would I do to control the Q211?
(side note: An offroad version is to use three Q211 motors laid out like Tesla AWD, have 201hp, lose power at 45mph and slowly get up to maybe 60mph. That would do well for a mini farm truck or quad.)
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
Does anyone know how to manage more than two traction motors?
I figure it would need two inverters with two channels each, but does one controller handle both or would one be slaved to the other?
update:
Forget the Q211, put a P310 (Highlander, Kluger, RX) or P313 (RAV4) up front, as they are the most durable. At least the Highlander (maybe RAV4) can go 124mph/200kph, where a Prius transmission tops out much lower. They are also cheap in the junkyards.
Can I use a P310/P313 with the openinverter project?
What would I use to run both a P310/P313 and a L210 in the same car?
Should I delete this thread and ask about an AWD with L210 & P310?
I figure it would need two inverters with two channels each, but does one controller handle both or would one be slaved to the other?
update:
Forget the Q211, put a P310 (Highlander, Kluger, RX) or P313 (RAV4) up front, as they are the most durable. At least the Highlander (maybe RAV4) can go 124mph/200kph, where a Prius transmission tops out much lower. They are also cheap in the junkyards.
Can I use a P310/P313 with the openinverter project?
What would I use to run both a P310/P313 and a L210 in the same car?
Should I delete this thread and ask about an AWD with L210 & P310?
- Bratitude
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
set one OI board to tx CAN and the other to rx. master/slave.
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
- celeron55
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
As long as someone makes the necessary capture from a running vehicle so that the Zombieverter driver can be written, a Lexus RX inverter would probably be ideal for L210 + MGR.
But then again now it's starting to look like openinverter could soon support the MGR at proper power levels too, in which case you can use any combination of inverters.
But then again now it's starting to look like openinverter could soon support the MGR at proper power levels too, in which case you can use any combination of inverters.
- jnsaff
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
I have access to a 2021 NX300h (before the model update). I can try and get a can capture if needed.
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
What currently supported inverter(s) would be best to use in the same car, for a L110/L210 and a P310/P313 for AWD? This allows as much as 600hp AWD using Toyota/Lexus transmissions (whining louder relative to speed at four similar but not equal tones, plus a box of hammers oil pump), or maybe 400hp and a quiet car.
Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
I think that not CAN log is vital here but communication between inverter and HV ECU (PMC), those 2 interfaces highlighted: .
Those are not CANs (Physical Layer is similar) but differential serial comms and you need sniffer to log the communication.
BTW: has anyone logs from Toyota/Lexus with MGR?
Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
I'm still learning all this as well but one thing I 'believe' I have picked up relating to regeneration - in that it is a function of motor power; so a more powerful motor can contribute more braking force in regeneration - meaning that a meaty motor in the back will be able to slow the back wheels more than a smaller motor up front which would not be great on a gravel road.CaliMountains wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:11 pm Hi All,
I’ve been observing for a while, and watched nearly all of Damien’s videos and quite a few of Johannes’ videos. I have the technical background to deal with this from the electrical and mechanical sides but am no expert. All I know about inverters is what I learned here. The following is my plan for my next car, submitted to you for critique. You know what they say about plans, they rarely survive the light of day.
Function: My short weekly trips, as I’m retired. Maybe I’ll go hog wild and drive every other day. I love autocross and live in severe twisties with no curbs or rails. Race prepping a car here is practically a safety requirement. I’ll install ABS+traction control. Regen must be AWD to panic stop on anything but a straight line on gravel.
Car: BMW 650i preferred, but I like the Mercedes R107 SL/SLC because a Tesla drive would drop right in.
Therefore, for improved performance in driving mountain twisties, racing autocross, and driving on slick roads; I want to install a minimum motor up front to give AWD up to moderate speeds, relatively easy to install, and not limit the top speed. Toyota’s Q211 MGR (motor generator rear) (stamped 2FM) from ~2015+ Highlander, RX400, RX450 has 50kw, and the Q210(?) from the earlier generation has 40kw. There are smaller motors too, if full regen is actually less power than that.
The front motor only needs to be powerful enough to give the desired regen. Anyone know how much that would be?
The rear drive would be a Lexus L210 (IS300h) rwd transmission or a Tesla Model S front SDU in the rear. Either one gives well over 200hp.
If using the Lexus L210 (2 motors) and Q211 (one motor), which inverters and control boards should I use? Does one Zombieverter run all three, or do I need a secondary board?
If using a Tesla SDU in the rear, I’d use the drop in VCU, but what would I do to control the Q211?
I guess you could limit regen on the rear motor; but then you are missing out on 'free' electrons.
Maybe i'm off the mark here - just thinking out load!
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Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
In brakes, with pads, you need most breaking power up front, maybe 70/30 or 60/40. I want the same for regen to slow the car evenly front to back in loose gravel or black ice in turns. I figure (with nothing to calculate from) 50-75kW up front would serve the purpose.
Inspiration?
Seeing Damien nearly wipe out due to regen on his first test of the Tesla large drive unit swap. I imagine he had to turn off regen to race. I figure (maybe kinda sorta) programmed regen on front and back could allow using high regen when racing without wiping out. This may allow racing in one pedal mode.
The power up front helps with acceleration, but is sized to have at least enough regen to balance hard regen.
I wish I could change the title, the MGR Q211 is air cooled junk. An Lxxx in the back, and a Pxxx in the front. L110&P310 would be a powerful combination on paper...
Inspiration?
Seeing Damien nearly wipe out due to regen on his first test of the Tesla large drive unit swap. I imagine he had to turn off regen to race. I figure (maybe kinda sorta) programmed regen on front and back could allow using high regen when racing without wiping out. This may allow racing in one pedal mode.
The power up front helps with acceleration, but is sized to have at least enough regen to balance hard regen.
I wish I could change the title, the MGR Q211 is air cooled junk. An Lxxx in the back, and a Pxxx in the front. L110&P310 would be a powerful combination on paper...
Re: AWD using Lexus/Toyota MGR (motor generator rear)
Where would I start reading to see what's involved in logging that data? My wife's parents have a Rav4 Prime that I could probably capture data from if it wouldn't be too intrusive, but since it's A: not my car and B: quite new I can't go too crazy with it.hombre77 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:38 pm I think that not CAN log is vital here but communication between inverter and HV ECU (PMC), those 2 interfaces highlighted:image.png.
Those are not CANs (Physical Layer is similar) but differential serial comms and you need sniffer to log the communication.
BTW: has anyone logs from Toyota/Lexus with MGR?