Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Today I powered up an LDU in a vehicle I've been working on and it's dead! I'm not at all sure what killed it, but I will try to detail the exact series of events that lead to its death.
1) The LDU was tested and working at low voltage (60v testing). The parameters were not configured by me, but were confirmed working.
2) The LDU was installed into a vehicle, including complete replacement of its wiring loom.
3) High voltage was applied, the inverter worked, but the motor would only make small vibrations, followed by an overcurrent fault. This failure was repeated a couple of times.
4) Assuming the problem was the encoder, the wiring to the encoder was replaced.
5) Subsequent attempts to power up the vehicle failed with a precharge issue caused by the BMS underreading the DC link voltage. This is probably not relevant, as I don't believe it would have opened the contactors as a result of this, but it was an annoying twist.
5) Several days later, with a new BMS contactor controller in hand, the next attempt, the LDU starts up, but fails with an overcurrent fault the moment it attempts to apply any current to the motor (ie when >0% throttle is applied).
All this leads me to assume that I have destroyed an IGBT in the LDU power stage, but I'm not at all sure how or why. I don't believe there was ever a contactor event during the failed high voltage tests, even though this is the most obvious explanation. I will test continuity of the power stage and see what I find, but definitely fearing the worst.
Not looking for any particular advice about the above, but thought I'd document it while it's fresh in my mind and I'm still upset about it!
The second problem is that I don't believe this inverter was configured correctly originally. I can definitely see that udcgain was incorrect, which leads me to suspect the device may not have been running a configuration designed for an LDU at all. Unfortunately, most other parameters I can't check because the backup I took didn't include hidden values, and most were replaced when I installed a config example provided in another thread by Damien.
While I realise that most misconfigurations shouldn't lead to inverter destruction, I am keep to make sure in future I start with the correct parameters. Would someone be able to point me in the direction of the current "starting point" parameters for the LDU (including hidden ones)? I'd like to get things back to a safe starting point. I'm particularly concerned about those parameters that shouldn't be adjusted, like voltage and current sensor gains, inverter frequency, and dead times, which most people don't need to touch, but I suspect I don't have correct values for.
1) The LDU was tested and working at low voltage (60v testing). The parameters were not configured by me, but were confirmed working.
2) The LDU was installed into a vehicle, including complete replacement of its wiring loom.
3) High voltage was applied, the inverter worked, but the motor would only make small vibrations, followed by an overcurrent fault. This failure was repeated a couple of times.
4) Assuming the problem was the encoder, the wiring to the encoder was replaced.
5) Subsequent attempts to power up the vehicle failed with a precharge issue caused by the BMS underreading the DC link voltage. This is probably not relevant, as I don't believe it would have opened the contactors as a result of this, but it was an annoying twist.
5) Several days later, with a new BMS contactor controller in hand, the next attempt, the LDU starts up, but fails with an overcurrent fault the moment it attempts to apply any current to the motor (ie when >0% throttle is applied).
All this leads me to assume that I have destroyed an IGBT in the LDU power stage, but I'm not at all sure how or why. I don't believe there was ever a contactor event during the failed high voltage tests, even though this is the most obvious explanation. I will test continuity of the power stage and see what I find, but definitely fearing the worst.
Not looking for any particular advice about the above, but thought I'd document it while it's fresh in my mind and I'm still upset about it!
The second problem is that I don't believe this inverter was configured correctly originally. I can definitely see that udcgain was incorrect, which leads me to suspect the device may not have been running a configuration designed for an LDU at all. Unfortunately, most other parameters I can't check because the backup I took didn't include hidden values, and most were replaced when I installed a config example provided in another thread by Damien.
While I realise that most misconfigurations shouldn't lead to inverter destruction, I am keep to make sure in future I start with the correct parameters. Would someone be able to point me in the direction of the current "starting point" parameters for the LDU (including hidden ones)? I'd like to get things back to a safe starting point. I'm particularly concerned about those parameters that shouldn't be adjusted, like voltage and current sensor gains, inverter frequency, and dead times, which most people don't need to touch, but I suspect I don't have correct values for.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
If I remember correctly, several others have had inverters that were damaged before they bought them, and would function at low test voltages, but fail at full pack voltage.catphish wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:47 pm All this leads me to assume that I have destroyed an IGBT in the LDU power stage, but I'm not at all sure how or why. I don't believe there was ever a contactor event during the failed high voltage tests, even though this is the most obvious explanation. I will test continuity of the power stage and see what I find, but definitely fearing the worst.
Jon's parameters have worked very well for me.
Found here: https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=195jon volk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:07 pm Updated parameter set. Same car/setup, just improved performance and driveability.
Further details on the what/why behind the changes can be found here.
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6&start=40
If at first you don't succeed, buy a bigger hammer.
1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Thank you!
Sadly these configs largely don't include the low level parameters. They're hidden from view, and not exported by default, but are still configurable, and I would like to verify them.
- Boxster EV
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
What error messages are you seeing (just overcurrent?). Any reason why you’re allowing the BMS to control the contactors over the OI logic board?catphish wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:47 pm Today I powered up an LDU in a vehicle I've been working on and it's dead! I'm not at all sure what killed it, but I will try to detail the exact series of events that lead to its death.
1) The LDU was tested and working at low voltage (60v testing). The parameters were not configured by me, but were confirmed working.
2) The LDU was installed into a vehicle, including complete replacement of its wiring loom.
3) High voltage was applied, the inverter worked, but the motor would only make small vibrations, followed by an overcurrent fault. This failure was repeated a couple of times.
4) Assuming the problem was the encoder, the wiring to the encoder was replaced.
5) Subsequent attempts to power up the vehicle failed with a precharge issue caused by the BMS underreading the DC link voltage. This is probably not relevant, as I don't believe it would have opened the contactors as a result of this, but it was an annoying twist.
5) Several days later, with a new BMS contactor controller in hand, the next attempt, the LDU starts up, but fails with an overcurrent fault the moment it attempts to apply any current to the motor (ie when >0% throttle is applied).
All this leads me to assume that I have destroyed an IGBT in the LDU power stage, but I'm not at all sure how or why. I don't believe there was ever a contactor event during the failed high voltage tests, even though this is the most obvious explanation. I will test continuity of the power stage and see what I find, but definitely fearing the worst.
Not looking for any particular advice about the above, but thought I'd document it while it's fresh in my mind and I'm still upset about it!
The second problem is that I don't believe this inverter was configured correctly originally. I can definitely see that udcgain was incorrect, which leads me to suspect the device may not have been running a configuration designed for an LDU at all. Unfortunately, most other parameters I can't check because the backup I took didn't include hidden values, and most were replaced when I installed a config example provided in another thread by Damien.
While I realise that most misconfigurations shouldn't lead to inverter destruction, I am keep to make sure in future I start with the correct parameters. Would someone be able to point me in the direction of the current "starting point" parameters for the LDU (including hidden ones)? I'd like to get things back to a safe starting point. I'm particularly concerned about those parameters that shouldn't be adjusted, like voltage and current sensor gains, inverter frequency, and dead times, which most people don't need to touch, but I suspect I don't have correct values for.
When you say the wiring to the encoder was replaced, do you mean that the A and B signals were swapped over?
What firmware pare you using and can you post your parameter file?
- johu
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
The parameter database openinverter.org/parameters contains also the hidden ones
You can pull a full dump with 192.168.4.1/cmd?cmd=json%20hidden
You can pull a full dump with 192.168.4.1/cmd?cmd=json%20hidden
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- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Thank you. I will start over with https://openinverter.org/parameters/view.html?id=16 when I can. These in fact appear to be the parameters I was running when the failure occurred, so I guess the device was configured correctly (or at least safely). I believe the udcgain in these default parameters isn't correct for the LDU, or at least the LDU I'm working on, but I guess this isn't critical. Thanks again.
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Yes, just overcurrent. This vehicle is using a ZeroEV CCS setup, which handles contactor control. I don't know why it was decided to use this to control the main inverter contactors too, but it works, and to the best of my knowledge never opens the contactors once closed. I will verify this with Seb though.Boxster EV wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:26 am What error messages are you seeing (just overcurrent?). Any reason why you’re allowing the BMS to control the contactors over the OI logic board?
Yes, the other lines but tested but not modified.Boxster EV wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:26 am When you say the wiring to the encoder was replaced, do you mean that the A and B signals were swapped over?
I was running 4.97. Parameters attached, which I now believe to be the defaults. The only issue I noted was that udcgain was causing DC bus voltage to appear a little higher than reality. So as most people suggest, this problem is very likely a hardware one, caused by the usual contactor / fuse opening at some point.Boxster EV wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:26 am What firmware pare you using and can you post your parameter file?
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- Boxster EV
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Hmm. I’m not familiar with the Zero EV contactor control logic. Although the original issue does sound encoder related if the motor was just oscillating before it fully let go.
Either way, sounds like you need to remove the cover and test the IGBTs.
I have some spare inverter parts if you get stuck.
Either way, sounds like you need to remove the cover and test the IGBTs.
I have some spare inverter parts if you get stuck.
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Thank you very much, I'll test each leg of the inverter ASAP, and will be a lot more careful when it comes to fuses and contactors in future! Fortunately this isn't actually my vehicle, but I'm consulting on it, so really hoping I can get it fixed without requiring a full new LDU!Boxster EV wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:13 pm Hmm. I’m not familiar with the Zero EV contactor control logic. Although the original issue does sound encoder related if the motor was just oscillating before it fully let go.
Either way, sounds like you need to remove the cover and test the IGBTs.
I have some spare inverter parts if you get stuck.
- Boxster EV
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
The drive unit will turn with an ocurlim of -300, so it’s good to adjust that down for testing purposes before hitting the accelerator too hard at full voltage.
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Testing reveals the following:Boxster EV wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:13 pm Either way, sounds like you need to remove the cover and test the IGBTs.
1) There appears to be a dead short between all 3 motor windings, and HV- (and hence between the 3 motor windings to each other)
2) The OVERCURRENT error occurs as soon as any throttle is applied, even if HV is not present
I'd appreciate any possible explanation for either or both of these faults. My assumption up to this point has been a dead power stage, but *3* dead power stages seems odd, and why does the error occur when HV is not present?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
the motor windings are still connected? So even one blown phase leg would show up on all 3 phases because the motor essentially is a dead short.
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- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Yes they are, I hadn't realized the DC resistance of the motor was so low. I'll test again without the motor thanks!
I'm also interested to know what is triggering OVERCURRENT when no DC voltage is applied at all. Is this more involved than just a current sensor?
Thanks again for all the pointers!
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Yes the LDU board is not very precise in what caused the error. So actual over current as detected by the comparator is thrown into one pot with desat errors from the gate drivers. I reckon the gate driver detects the shorted IGBT and throws the error
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
There’s a light on each Tesla phase gate driver board that will illuminate during a desat fault. That’ll tell you for sure it’s a hardware issue. I don’t have a photo immediately handy.
EDIT. Found my old pic from Instagram.
EDIT. Found my old pic from Instagram.
Formerly 92 E30 BMW Cabrio with Tesla power
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
I had a new and disturbing fault show up and I'm hoping someone else has seen it.
I was working on cleaning up some wiring, and so I tested the car on jack stands. For some reason, when I come off throttle, not only does regen not kick in, but the motor continues to accelerate.
I've checked the parameters, and cruise/idle is off.
I watched the spot values, and the inverter is definitely seeing both the throttle position (pot value matches what I'm doing with the throttle) and its seeing the revolutions (rpm value changes).
This may be related to a different error where I don't seem to get regen until the pack is at 60%ish. Pack is currently at 95%.
EDIT TO ADD: the motor will come to a stop when the brake pedal is pressed.
Attached are current parameters and screen shot of spot values without the pedal pressed.
I was working on cleaning up some wiring, and so I tested the car on jack stands. For some reason, when I come off throttle, not only does regen not kick in, but the motor continues to accelerate.
I've checked the parameters, and cruise/idle is off.
I watched the spot values, and the inverter is definitely seeing both the throttle position (pot value matches what I'm doing with the throttle) and its seeing the revolutions (rpm value changes).
This may be related to a different error where I don't seem to get regen until the pack is at 60%ish. Pack is currently at 95%.
EDIT TO ADD: the motor will come to a stop when the brake pedal is pressed.
Attached are current parameters and screen shot of spot values without the pedal pressed.
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1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
udc is 468 and therefor above udcmax of 426V. Probably udcgain off. 0 throttle can result in minimal propulsion when there is no resistance
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Ah that makes sense. Voltage is definitely not that high.
If at first you don't succeed, buy a bigger hammer.
1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
1940 Chevrolet w/ Tesla LDU - "Shocking Chevy" - Completed 2023 Hot Rod Drag Week
Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Haha out of interest does this light illuminate the time ? Or does HV need to be connected?
- catphish
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
I re-tested *without* HV. The light did *not* illuminate, but something did generate an OVERCURRENT fault on openinverter. I didn't try with HV connected.
By disassembling the inverter, I have now identified my fault. One phase output is shorted to battery negative, so there must be a failed low side IGBT on that one phase. I will need a single replacement power stage.
Thank you all for the assistance in debugging! I believe I will be able to source a replacement.
Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
I've received my V5 LDU logic board from the OpenInverter shop and as I like to know how things work I went to look at the schematics and found that the V5 stuff is on Johannes branch https://github.com/jsphuebner/Tesla-Dri ... master/V5/ rather than Damiens, no big surprise there. But when I went to look at the schematic https://github.com/jsphuebner/Tesla-Dri ... sla_V5.bmp it's pixelated as all get out!
Any tips on where to look for V5 schematic that's legible?
Any tips on where to look for V5 schematic that's legible?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Isaac, we need you
I always rolled with the V4 schematic as there's not much difference. But I agree it should be there.
I always rolled with the V4 schematic as there's not much difference. But I agree it should be there.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Ah ha!
Printing to PDF instead of exporting as BMP is much better.
This should be correct.
Printing to PDF instead of exporting as BMP is much better.
This should be correct.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit Support Thread
Thanks for the clear schematic
I made a pull request to update the repo
I made a pull request to update the repo