Partlist for a Tesla Swap Project

[damian]

Hello dear community,
I'm not sure which parts I need to have a running Tesla dual motor car.
Research was made and I'm truly not 100% sure what I need to have a drivable EV car.

I would be very thankful if someone could tell me which parts I need for a dual motor setup.
I'm afraid to make a big mistake when buying parts.

Best Regards
Damian

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

At a minimum:
- batteries
- motors
- cables
- fittings
- contactors
- fuse
- control boards for the Tesla inverters
- electric throttle pedal
- BMS
- On board charger
- control board for on board charger
- heat exchanger/radiator and associated pumps and hoses
- Control for fast charging (optional)

Further than that, it depends on what you are swapping into and what features you want to work. If you're building a race car, that's it. If you want things like heat, cooling, power steering/brakes, etc or if you are converting a more modern car with electronics, there are more.

[damian]

Thank you so much!
I have trouble finding drive units and controllers.
I'm searching for P100D drive units, front and rear ones. What I'm curious about, are some front drive units used in multiple models? Like is the Model X and Model S P100D front drive unit the same?
I found a controller that is compatible with P85D drive units, but which one is needed for P100D?
I'm researching so much right now, my head is burning. I have noted few part numbers for motors to search for.

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

There are two basic Model S & X (pre 2017) drive units, small and large. There are two variants of each. The small drive unit has a front and rear version (different cases). The large drive unit has a base and sport version (different power electronics, same case).

The Open Inverter/EVBMW LDU and SDU control boards work in both versions of their respective type (i.e. the Open Inverter LDU board will work in sport and base, the SDU board will work in front and rear). This is not true of some other board options (AEM), because they have the motor and inverter parameters pre-programmed, while the Open Inverter solutions require you to set all parameters. Don't be immediately scared off, several people have shared their parameter lists that they know work.

Some notes on Tesla nomenclature (for pre 2017 Model S and X)
- # indicates battery pack size
- P indicates performance/sport rear drive unit
- D indicates AWD (i.e. dual motor)

Check out the table at the link below.

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla

[damian]

Thank you again, your posts are more helpful that I would have needed.
I didn't know that the SDU was also used in the rear.

I have the problem that I don't know which motors to choose.
P100D are the most powerful ones.
P90D are also pretty powerful and cheaper than the P100D ones.
Then we have the P85D, pretty easy to find, much cheaper than the P100D but less powerful.

So I've done again some research and the research says that the 85D motors can output 772HP but the weaker batteries did only 469HP (dyno).

My other question about the batteries would be, do I need the 15 battery modules to run the motor at full power?
Is it possible to use 7 modules and modify them so they output a higher voltage at the cost of range?

All I need is 200KM when driving normal (not eco).

So one module from 85D specs:
Capacity: 5.2kWh (233Ah)
Discharge Continuous: 233A ~1C 30kW
Discharge 10s: 1000A ~4.3C
Discharge 3s: 1520A ~6.5C 5kW
Cell Config: 6 series of 74parallel (6s74p)
Voltage min 18V nominal 22.2v max 25.2v
My idea was to do 3s148p. That would mean that it has double the voltage and current right?

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

I have the problem that I don't know which motors to choose.
P100D are the most powerful ones.
P90D are also pretty powerful and cheaper than the P100D ones.
Then we have the P85D, pretty easy to find, much cheaper than the P100D but less powerful.

To the best of my knowledge, the different battery packs all used the same motor. i.e. a P85D and a P100D use the same motors but with different battery packs. Hopefully someone else can chime in if I am wrong.

[P.S.Mangelsdorf]

So one module from 85D specs:
Capacity: 5.2kWh (233Ah)
Discharge Continuous: 233A ~1C 30kW
Discharge 10s: 1000A ~4.3C
Discharge 3s: 1520A ~6.5C 5kW
Cell Config: 6 series of 74parallel (6s74p)
Voltage min 18V nominal 22.2v max 25.2v
My idea was to do 3s148p. That would mean that it has double the voltage and current right?

If I'm remembering my electrical circuits correctly, going from 6s74p to 3s148p would double available current but cut the voltage in half. Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Rather than mess with the module itself, I'd leave it intact and add the right # of modules in series and parallel to get what you need.

Great resource on OEM batteries is Kerry Manning's channel EVEngineering, and the Excel sheet provided here:
https://github.com/kerrymann/EVbatterie ... mmary.xlsx

[Mojave]

Don't underestimate the role of the batteries in the ultimate power the system makes. The delivered power is almost always limited by the current the batteries can supply at a given voltage rather than the motor itself. The P85 vs P100 you mentioned is a great example since the motor in both is identical but the power delivered is different. The higher the current you draw from a battery pack, the larger the voltage sag becomes and the less power it makes... Depending on the battery pack, it may sag 30V at 1,000A or it could sag 100V at 600A. That may dictate the power you make more than the motor you choose.

[damian]

Thank you again for the replies and infos.
So the issue is that the car is pretty small and I truly have no idea how and where to fit more than 7 modules. The issue is that 4 of those 7 modules will be under my driver seat and I will be basically sitting on them like in a Tesla. The other 2 can be put in the back and 1 in the front. Then I would say I could squeeze one more in the front but then there is no space left.

But with higher current the efficiency of the motor is lower right?
Because more current more power is dissipated as heat.

I was also thinking about using maybe 4 axial motors, but the specs don't seem good.
I actually want to at least have 700HP in that EV car.

https://avidtp.com/product/evo-motors/
AF125 = 12000rpm, 100Nm, 59Kw
AF130 = 8000rpm, 145Nm, 64Kw
AF140 = 5000rpm, 260Nm, 94Kw

https://www.magnax.com/technology
325Kw 15sec peak 510Nm

https://cascadiamotion.com/productlist/ ... s/8-ss-250
375Kw 500Nm 700vdc

I also found those motors, little weird, I guess it's meant to be in a plane, aircooled and such.
https://emrax.com/e-motors/
Emrax 268 = 107Kw 250Nm (200Kw peak at 4500rpm, 500Nm Peak)

I think the Tesla option is the easiest one, but I think the 4 motor idea will be much more expensive and not even come close to the power output of a p85d with enough voltage/amps to reach about 700-772HP.

Are the motors above even good to be used in a sports car?
I guess because my car is much lighter I should prefer a higer RPM over Torque right?
Because lets keep in mind that Teslas weight about 1,961–2,250 kg (4,323–4,960 lb) (source wiki) meaning that my car is about 1/3 of that. So I wouldn't need this much torque to move it.
I guess with this amount of torque it would end with a 150kph durnout on all 4 wheels.

[Mojave]

I would focus 100% on the battery first, everything else is secondary.

[damian]

Oh my god, I just realized that the Tesla Modules are the wrong batteries for my project.
The other issue is that I very much prefer FLAT batteries instead of chunky ones like the Volt Gen.2 unless I would make a special case for it so I could fit more batteries in the floor. yes also water cooled.

Found here something interesting.
https://lionsmart.com/en/battery-technology/

Where should I look for battery modules? It's not very common in the EU that people sell battery modules from Chevy volts, Pacific or any modules. It's basically just Ebay.

[Isaac96]

If you only have space for 7 Tesla modules you won't be able to get 700hp.

According to your specs for P85D modules, you can get 6.5C for 3 seconds. 7 modules is (5.2kWh * 7) 36.4 kWh. That times 6.5 = 236 kW, no more than 300hp.

Yup, you'll need to focus on batteries. What car are you planning to convert that you can fit 7 tesla modules and need 700hp?

[damian]

Is the calculation correct, the normal Tesla has then 5.2kWh * 15 modules * 6.5 = 507KW ?
236kW are 320Hp or do you mean 300Hp? (just asking)

So what would you suggest? What can I power with 7 Tesla modules or 4x 7kWh Chevy Volt packs? For the Chevy packs I would need to make it a "battery floor" like Tesla has. Because this won't fit. I'm very interested in the Axial motors I've mentioned above, are they any good?

I didn't know where the 6.5 came from and the only calculation that outputs 6.5 from the tesla module is Discharge 3s / 233Ah

That would mean that a bmw i3 battery module is 3C becaue 360A (10s) / 120Ah = 3. But one module has 45V not 22V.
5.2kWh * 8 * 3 = 125kW and yes the motor has 125kW

I quite don't understand how many batteries I need. So I want the car to have range of 130-200km (80-124miles)

Is there even a way to somehow modify the Tesla packs or better Volt packs to get the needed power? Or is it better to get another motor instead the tesla one?

I'm trying to find out how many batteries do I need, because it depends also which motor I will get.
Because if 7 modules will give me 250KW, this isn't even close to be worth putting a Tesla motor inside.
But if I modify the tesla modules and make them 12S37, wouldn't this work then? It would output the same voltage but the amps would be lower right? This would mean that the range would be cut in halved but the power would be the same?

I found this years ago.
http://battery.real.engineering/

[Isaac96]

I'm just speaking in rough terms. Yup, 236kw is ~320hp.

6.5C is from the ratings you have above.

It all depends on what batteries you end up with. And also how hard you want to push them. Two complete Volt packs is known to power a large Tesla motor nicely.

Modifying Tesla modules -- 12S37P would give you twice the voltage and half the amps. Just cutting them apart doesn't give you more or less range since you still have the same total amount of battery.

Range -- about 300 watt-hours per mile is a decent estimate, so 30 kWh = 100 miles.

[celeron55]

The modules will have the same power output no matter how you modify them. The voltage vs. amps ratio will just change.

If you only have space for 7 tesla modules, there's absolutely no battery in the world that would fit in the space and come even close to 700hp of output.

My conversion has a Leaf motor with OEM inverter (80kW) and 12 5.2kWh modules, and even I am power limited by the modules sometimes as they perform really badly when cold or low SoC. They're absolutely superb for range though.

A high performance EV needs a big battery, no matter what. Getting away with any battery smaller or lighter than 16 5.2kWh tesla modules for 700hp is likely to be impossible. There are cheaper options if you don't need the kWh, but they'll weigh the same and use the same space.

Well, I can imagine some contraption using RC plane pouch cells to be able to beat that, as they have power densities up to more than 6kW/kg, but I wouldn't consider that safe, and the energy density wouldn't be enough for your range requirements.

[muehlpower]

Is the calculation correct, the normal Tesla has then 5.2kWh * 15 modules * 6.5 = 507KW ?
236kW are 320Hp or do you mean 300Hp? (just asking)

a tesla 75 has 14 modules, 85 and 100 have 16. Those of the 100 have a larger capacity with the same size.

And another thing. I don't know what you're up to, but the continuous output of a tesla LDU is 69 kW, regardless of whether it is a performance or a base. Model 3 has 95kw continuous power with less peak.

[damian]

Ok I understand, all I want is the "Tesla Punch" and not continuous output of 500kw+

But can't I get a Battery Module with less range but more power? The guy in the video that has been linked above says that the Volt Batteries have higher output than the Tesla Modules, meaning that I would need less battery modules for the same power compared to tesla modules.

[Isaac96]

Yes. It's just hard to find 'real specs' for batteries -- all you can really do is look at other builds and see how well they have worked.

[jon volk]

The Volt stuff has really become the defacto standard “hot rod” conversion battery. It really has a lot going for it.

Good production volume driving low cost and high availability (relative to other options)

High c-rate to deliver the amps for high power motors

Well documented OEM BMS

Pretty easily packaged

The sacrifice in range usually isn’t an issue for most weekend cruiser use cases. Chademo and with CCS on the horizon still make road trips viable with the smaller battery. I have two Volt packs in mine.