The VCU change discussion
- mdrobnak
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Re: The VCU change discussion
I think the end result from my point of view is this:
* The base framework is free. They are not end user products.
* If you wish to make a business from this, you should have experts in both hardware and software to ensure that the product you deliver meets your supportability requirements or standards.
* Problems need to be reported back. Nothing can be done about them otherwise.
* There are commercial solutions that can be chosen instead if this doesn't suit your needs.
* The base framework is free. They are not end user products.
* If you wish to make a business from this, you should have experts in both hardware and software to ensure that the product you deliver meets your supportability requirements or standards.
* Problems need to be reported back. Nothing can be done about them otherwise.
* There are commercial solutions that can be chosen instead if this doesn't suit your needs.
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Most of the people we are helping have purchased your products and want in return a stable solution that they can use.
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Agreed and this is something we will start communicating from now on.
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- Bigpie
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Re: The VCU change discussion
We aren't buying a commercial product, there's no retail packaging etc.
I don't expect anything more than if I'd taken the design files and ordered my self from jlcpcb.
When I'm paid to write software and I use open source libraries, if it has a bug or issue, I have to fix it myself or submit a bug report and hope the developers choose to address or pay them to address my specific issue.
A unified hardware makes plenty of sense, reducing the burden of maintance. One platform and one codebase is going to be easier to manage
I don't expect anything more than if I'd taken the design files and ordered my self from jlcpcb.
When I'm paid to write software and I use open source libraries, if it has a bug or issue, I have to fix it myself or submit a bug report and hope the developers choose to address or pay them to address my specific issue.
A unified hardware makes plenty of sense, reducing the burden of maintance. One platform and one codebase is going to be easier to manage
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Dont you guys think arguing here is counter productive?
Sure you can present fancy arguments from a single side, but that just leaves the other side more frustrated.
I am also not particulary happy this went the way of STM32 since i had plans for my DUE gizmo chargers and Chademo... Oh well i will make do with what is available now and wait for when new VCUs are tested... Then get new VCUs.
Lets face it STM32 makes sense because it makes OI stuff more modular. And MEs and EEs understand modular really well .
Sure you can present fancy arguments from a single side, but that just leaves the other side more frustrated.
I am also not particulary happy this went the way of STM32 since i had plans for my DUE gizmo chargers and Chademo... Oh well i will make do with what is available now and wait for when new VCUs are tested... Then get new VCUs.
Lets face it STM32 makes sense because it makes OI stuff more modular. And MEs and EEs understand modular really well .
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
So, what about the people who have purchased products and are none technical? Are they not relevant once they've spent their money?
We could have unified most of the products around the existing processor and put all the recent effort into delivering a more robust solution. We would also of benefited by building on years of working software and hardware without having to start testing most systems again from scratch.
The difference with Open Vehicles development is stark. When we outgrew the first generation hardware we debated the options within the community and the end result is a much better platform today. I think we missed an opportunity on Open Inverter.
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
We're supporting a lot people who have purchased boards and struggle to get them working. I think it's important to raise these issues not only for the customers but also in the vain hope that next time a major change is considered it will be discussed with the community. Don't forget that many people impacted help fund this development through Patreon and donations, etc.
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
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Re: The VCU change discussion
I don't see any issue here. The designs are open source, if you want to stay supplied with the boards you are used to then just have more of them made at a manufacturer of your choice. If you are worried about future updates then just accept the features that are already present, or update it yourself.
For a commercial product you would likely want your own variant anyway to suit your market.
For a commercial product you would likely want your own variant anyway to suit your market.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Yup, was always communicated in both shops as well. We know our limits.New Electric Ireland wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:49 pm Agreed and this is something we will start communicating from now on.
https://openinverter.org/shop/index.php ... duct_id=62
https://evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-websh ... oards-copy
Donations are used to innovate which I hope is apparent. And also to keep the forum ad free.
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- Boxster EV
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Johannes (and Damien) owe us nothing. I’ll continue to support both through Patreon even if things take a different turn.
Support through the forum has been perfectly adequate to date.
Support through the forum has been perfectly adequate to date.
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
So, what about the people who have purchased products and are none technical? Are they not relevant once they've spent their money?
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
They can come here and ask questions at no cost involved. And often the issue is solved. Or they can pay for my time and be helped directly over video chat and remote access. BTW if it turns out the mistake was on my side I will (partly) refund. Happened once so far.New Electric Ireland wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:29 pm So, what about the people who have purchased products and are none technical? Are they not relevant once they've spent their money?
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- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
It looks like we have a generic problem here;
viewtopic.php?f=5&p=21543#p21543
Does this qualify for a refund?
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Refund the time for the call I meant. Not for the hardware.
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- Bigpie
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Pretty sure Johannes and Damien both state the terms. I bought from Damien knowing I'd likely spend a lot of time reading and learning. I didn't buy a commercial product.
Look at linux distros. There are free and commercial versions along with many companies that offer support and services.
Must be a difference of mindset, if I wanted to avoid getting technical, I'd buy an expensive kit.
Look at linux distros. There are free and commercial versions along with many companies that offer support and services.
Must be a difference of mindset, if I wanted to avoid getting technical, I'd buy an expensive kit.
VW Beetle 2003
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
OK, I'll suggest they contact you as a group and see if you can work out what's going on. It's a pain when end users have to re-programme hardware that should be working on delivery.
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
You're a software guy, lots end users are not. Given these don't work on delivery I don't think you can blame people who just want to use the product without buying programming tools, searching out missing files, etc., etc.
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Well it's worth a try, just be aware that I'm not involved in the VCU project and am not selling the corresponding hardware either. So I can only solve more generic problems.
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- Bigpie
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Maybe they're buying the wrong tool for the job in that case.
Want something that just works, buy a Mac or Windows pc. If you're prepared to learn and put the effort in download Debian.
I converted a motorcycle a few years ago, for speed and simplicity I bought a kit, motor, controller, throttle etc. I expected that to just work and to have support. It was sold under that description.
FWIW both Johannes and Damien and others have helped me with problems, for free, when they didnt have to, and so I've helped others where I could. Ive been on video calls with other members, again for free, to help them.
Maybe being a software guy means it's pretty clear in my mind the difference between a commercial product and open source.
Want something that just works, buy a Mac or Windows pc. If you're prepared to learn and put the effort in download Debian.
I converted a motorcycle a few years ago, for speed and simplicity I bought a kit, motor, controller, throttle etc. I expected that to just work and to have support. It was sold under that description.
FWIW both Johannes and Damien and others have helped me with problems, for free, when they didnt have to, and so I've helped others where I could. Ive been on video calls with other members, again for free, to help them.
Maybe being a software guy means it's pretty clear in my mind the difference between a commercial product and open source.
VW Beetle 2003
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
Outlander front generator
Prius Gen 3 inverter (EVBMW logic board)
Outlander charger
3x Golf GTE batteries
Chademo Charging
Outlander water heater
- New Electric Ireland
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Final thought for today... have you checked your support model is legal in Germany? A friend just reminded me that EU law requires the manufacturer to offer a two year (minimum) guarantee and that includes demonstrating the product works
In Ireland we undertake training & open source RND for the New Electric group, 5 companies converting boats, buses, cars and trucks to electric drive since 2008.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Thats why I sell kits only
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- mdrobnak
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Re: The VCU change discussion
With respect to making a more polished product:
The libopeninv project is LGPL and can be used in commercial project as long as you haven't modified that library. Changes to it need to be given back (I think this is reasonable). Also do note this is the data from github that I'm getting this from, I am not a lawyer.
The libopencm3 library is the same.
stm32-sine is unclear as to the license terms, and probably should be clarified. If not GPL (like BSD, MIT, Apache or something) then a closed-source version can be made.
Fun times all around.
The libopeninv project is LGPL and can be used in commercial project as long as you haven't modified that library. Changes to it need to be given back (I think this is reasonable). Also do note this is the data from github that I'm getting this from, I am not a lawyer.
The libopencm3 library is the same.
stm32-sine is unclear as to the license terms, and probably should be clarified. If not GPL (like BSD, MIT, Apache or something) then a closed-source version can be made.
Fun times all around.
- johu
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Thats GPL v3 (see gpl.txt in repo)
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- mdrobnak
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Re: The VCU change discussion
Ah, I missed that. I think there's a way to tell github specifically what the license is, or maybe a symlink to LICENSE.
That all said, I think you've put a lot of work into the inverter software, so I have no problems with that needing to be open.
There's a lot of functions available in the library
-Matt
- rstevens81
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Re: The VCU change discussion
There needs to be a reality check here I think.
The hardware and software is fundamentally open source, it is upto the contributors how they wish the software/hardware to be developed, it's their baby after all ( I and meny others appreciate the efforts) if someone wants to go in a different direction they can simply fork it and go where they want.
To advise a non technically minded person to use open source is just plain wrong, the best example I can give is letting my wife use my Debian laptop, the end result is always the same ... Failure!
Most on the forum I would hope are technically minded and understand the open source life cycle where the old VCU have progressed into long term support (this has happened earlier than expected, however the reasons for this are sound as stm32 availability is very strong and not likely to be an issue in the next decade) , there is nothing preventing important changes to be ported back.
Personally I think unifying around the stm32 and unifying around a openenverter code is the best for long term development.
I wish to convey my point that contributions of the developers are appreciated and they have every right to proceed in any direction they wish.
The hardware and software is fundamentally open source, it is upto the contributors how they wish the software/hardware to be developed, it's their baby after all ( I and meny others appreciate the efforts) if someone wants to go in a different direction they can simply fork it and go where they want.
To advise a non technically minded person to use open source is just plain wrong, the best example I can give is letting my wife use my Debian laptop, the end result is always the same ... Failure!
Most on the forum I would hope are technically minded and understand the open source life cycle where the old VCU have progressed into long term support (this has happened earlier than expected, however the reasons for this are sound as stm32 availability is very strong and not likely to be an issue in the next decade) , there is nothing preventing important changes to be ported back.
Personally I think unifying around the stm32 and unifying around a openenverter code is the best for long term development.
I wish to convey my point that contributions of the developers are appreciated and they have every right to proceed in any direction they wish.
Rule 1 of EV Club is don't buy a rust bucket....
Which rule does everyone forget
Which rule does everyone forget