E46 Touring with GS450H Gearbox Motor

[Domt177]

Planning on doing an EV Conversion of an BMW E46 Touring using the GS450H Gearbox as a drive motor, along with the Lexus inverter and the Openinverter GS450H VCM Kit from the EVBMW webshop.

Requirements:

- Power: 200ish HP - GS450H is perfectly suffiecent
- Range - 160+mi - planning on using the Zoe 40kWh Battery
- Charging - 50kW Rapid Charging
- Ideally doesn't eat into boot space with batteries etc, (spare tyre space I'm willing to use instead)
- Budget: sub £10k

So far I thought I had everything until I realised that the Zoe 40kWh Battery uses the Zoe motor as an inductor to speed up the charging, therefore I won't be able to use the Zoe charging system without being limited to 22kW

The batteries will primarily be stored in the free space in the bonnet so active air cooling is possible, but I need to figure out some work around the Zoe charging system to be able to use 50kW.

Is this still possible with the Zoe battery or will I have to find a different battery source. (Model 3 batteries are in budget but the modules are 1.8 meters long, and aren't splittable without destroying the pack, can't think of anywhere in the E46 that can facilitate 3 long battery modules.)

thanks.

[Isaac96]

40KWh won't give you 160mi of range unless you're driving slowly. Average energy consumption for an EV is over 300 Wh/mi, so for 40KWh you can probably get 120-130 miles.
Model S batteries or BMW hybrid batteries might work, take a look at those.

Are you planning to use CHAdeMO for rapid charging? If so, the limitations of the Zoe charger are irrelevant - you simply connect the DC wires directly to the pack.

Sounds like an excellent conversion, and you'll have some of Damien's cars to go off of.

-Isaac

[TFirenza]

great project, similar set of components to my build

[Domt177]

40KWh won't give you 160mi of range unless you're driving slowly. Average energy consumption for an EV is over 300 Wh/mi, so for 40KWh you can probably get 120-130 miles.
Model S batteries or BMW hybrid batteries might work, take a look at those.

Are you planning to use CHAdeMO for rapid charging? If so, the limitations of the Zoe charger are irrelevant - you simply connect the DC wires directly to the pack.

Sounds like an excellent conversion, and you'll have some of Damien's cars to go off of.

-Isaac

Tesla Batteries are a bit out of budget for enough capacity for my range requirements, so I might go with 12 BMW i3 Battery Modules instead, that would give me 48kWh of nominal capacity (so about 42ish kWh net capacity) which I will see what range I can get from.

I was hoping to use CCS for quick charging, which the i3 uses anyway, so can I just buy an i3 charging system and hook it up or is it more complicated than that?

[Isaac96]

CCS is the worst...
We don't yet know what works and what doesn't.

If you want to get an i3 system and start messing with it, you may or may not be able to get the charging working. There is a control unit somewhere which handles the actual car-charger communication, but that unit also takes commands from somewhere else, so you'd need to learn how to make those work.
If you could get a working i3 and log some messages from it while quick charging, then maybe we could take a look at the logs and see what messages are needed. That's not guaranteed to work though.

[Domt177]

CCS is the worst...
We don't yet know what works and what doesn't.

If you want to get an i3 system and start messing with it, you may or may not be able to get the charging working. There is a control unit somewhere which handles the actual car-charger communication, but that unit also takes commands from somewhere else, so you'd need to learn how to make those work.
If you could get a working i3 and log some messages from it while quick charging, then maybe we could take a look at the logs and see what messages are needed. That's not guaranteed to work though.

CHAdeMO it is then, say if I continue with the Zoe battery (primarily for ease) then I can install a CHAdeMO plug into the car and directly connect it to the battery terminals fro DC Quick charging, doesn't it need a DC-DC converter for voltage control?

Also how would I achieve AC charging like what I use to charge my current car at home, I imagine i'll need a separate type 2 port as CHAdeMO is DC only and home charging is AC and a separate AC-DC converter

thanks for the help

[Domt177]

great project, similar set of components to my build

Thanks, are you using the Zoe battery also?

If so what quick or slow charge setup do you have

cheers

[Isaac96]

CHAdeMO it is then, say if I continue with the Zoe battery (primarily for ease) then I can install a CHAdeMO plug into the car and directly connect it to the battery terminals fro DC Quick charging, doesn't it need a DC-DC converter for voltage control?

Also how would I achieve AC charging like what I use to charge my current car at home, I imagine i'll need a separate type 2 port as CHAdeMO is DC only and home charging is AC and a separate AC-DC converter

thanks for the help

CHAdeMO needs a pair of contactors between the plug and the battery, along with the proper controller setup. Voltage is requested by the car and provided by the station. Take a look at the schematics, on the CHAdeMO thread and at https://www.electricboxster.com/open-chademo. There will be a wiki guide soon as well.

AC charging is a separate AC-DC converter, so yes, you will need a type 2 port for that.

[Kevin Sharpe]

Also how would I achieve AC charging like what I use to charge my current car at home, I imagine i'll need a separate type 2 port as CHAdeMO is DC only and home charging is AC and a separate AC-DC converter

When installing your AC charge port use the CCS connector so you can upgrade in the future. The CCS connector will fit behind many fuel doors and you can then install the CHAdeMO connector elsewhere on the car (I really like Damien's exhaust pipe solution).

[TFirenza]

gs450h motor/inverter , Still figuring out battery side waiting for the bmw battery group purchase to go through, thinking at present Tesla gen 2 AC on board and CHAdeMO based Rapid charge following the recent progress.

[Kevin Sharpe]

Planning on doing an EV Conversion of an BMW E46 Touring using the GS450H Gearbox as a drive motor, along with the Lexus inverter and the Openinverter GS450H VCM Kit from the EVBMW webshop.

I recommend you buy a GS450H car and break it for parts. A few months ago we paid £500 for a good example in the UK. This will give you extra cash to invest in the conversion.

With regards to battery make a decision based on what will fit in the space available. Only use the OEM battery BMS and the SimpBMS controller. Ideally you want battery heating/cooling if you intend to undertake long trips with rapid charging. The 41kWh ZOE has a NEDC range of 250 miles so your 160+ mile requirement should be possible with that battery.

Install both CCS and CHAdeMO charging ports.

Tesla Gen 2 10kW charger is widely used and tested.

[DaveH]

12 i3 modules would be 144s or >500V, unless you were thinking of using them 6+6 in parallel?

[Domt177]

CHAdeMO it is then, say if I continue with the Zoe battery (primarily for ease) then I can install a CHAdeMO plug into the car and directly connect it to the battery terminals fro DC Quick charging, doesn't it need a DC-DC converter for voltage control?

Also how would I achieve AC charging like what I use to charge my current car at home, I imagine i'll need a separate type 2 port as CHAdeMO is DC only and home charging is AC and a separate AC-DC converter

thanks for the help

CHAdeMO needs a pair of contactors between the plug and the battery, along with the proper controller setup. Voltage is requested by the car and provided by the station. Take a look at the schematics, on the CHAdeMO thread and at https://www.electricboxster.com/open-chademo. There will be a wiki guide soon as well.

AC charging is a separate AC-DC converter, so yes, you will need a type 2 port for that.

And how is CANBUS communication sorted out? I can quite easily make an adapter Arduino as I have worked a lot with CANBUS or is there an easy solution already out there?

[Domt177]

gs450h motor/inverter , Still figuring out battery side waiting for the bmw battery group purchase to go through, thinking at present Tesla gen 2 AC on board and CHAdeMO based Rapid charge following the recent progress.

Think whats what I’ll be using, I’ll have a CCS Port for AC charging (only utilising gate type 2 but the port is for future upgradability) with a tesla gen 2 on board charger and a home made CCS setup depending on battery setup (Zoe or i3 batteries)

[Domt177]

I recommend you buy a GS450H car and break it for parts. A few months ago we paid £500 for a good example in the UK. This will give you extra cash to invest in the conversion.

With regards to battery make a decision based on what will fit in the space available. Only use the OEM battery BMS and the SimpBMS controller. Ideally you want battery heating/cooling if you intend to undertake long trips with rapid charging. The 41kWh ZOE has a NEDC range of 250 miles so your 160+ mile requirement should be possible with that battery.

Install both CCS and CHAdeMO charging ports.

Tesla Gen 2 10kW charger is widely used and tested.

If i were to use i3 cells, I’m right in thinking they’re liquid cooled and it cant be that hard to create a liquid cooling loop as there is already points for that on each i3 module, that would make rapid charging a bit better I suppose.

Otherwise I would use a series of fans over the Zoe cells but that seems a bit inefficient and installing liquid cooling on the Zoe cells seems a bit complicated as they aren’t designed to be liquid cooled.

[Isaac96]

And how is CANBUS communication sorted out? I can quite easily make an adapter Arduino as I have worked a lot with CANBUS or is there an easy solution already out there?

CANBUS for the quick charge is handled by the CHAdeMO controller, if you read the thread and look at the hardware designs you will see how it works. You will need one of Damien's control boards, as it has the correct microcontroller, inputs, and outputs, as well as 2 CAN busses.

[Kevin Sharpe]

If i were to use i3 cells, I’m right in thinking they’re liquid cooled and it cant be that hard to create a liquid cooling loop as there is already points for that on each i3 module, that would make rapid charging a bit better I suppose.

Most batteries will require cooling if you wish to undertake lots rapid charging on a trip.

Otherwise I would use a series of fans over the Zoe cells but that seems a bit inefficient and installing liquid cooling on the Zoe cells seems a bit complicated as they aren’t designed to be liquid cooled.

Air cooling will not work but creating a chill plate for the ZOE battery is not complicated.

I'd recommend you forget about the manufacturer of the battery at this early stage. Focus instead on working out how much space you have available in the car because that will reduce the number of battery options you have available.

[Domt177]

If i were to use i3 cells, I’m right in thinking they’re liquid cooled and it cant be that hard to create a liquid cooling loop as there is already points for that on each i3 module, that would make rapid charging a bit better I suppose.

Most batteries will require cooling if you wish to undertake lots rapid charging on a trip.

Otherwise I would use a series of fans over the Zoe cells but that seems a bit inefficient and installing liquid cooling on the Zoe cells seems a bit complicated as they aren’t designed to be liquid cooled.

Air cooling will not work but creating a chill plate for the ZOE battery is not complicated.

I'd recommend you forget about the manufacturer of the battery at this early stage. Focus instead on working out how much space you have available in the car because that will reduce the number of battery options you have available.

Okay, thinking Zoe batteries (from a salvage Zoe i'll buy) anyway as i3 and others will eat into budget too much, if I strip away and install the modules what BMS can I use, as I doubt the OEM one will work?

Chill plate with fins (acting like a heat sink) should be fine then, I doubt ill be taking that many trips with more than 1 rapid charge anyway.

Is there any milage in finding a 22kW AC on board charger like the one that comes with the Zoe? to save money and 22kw AC would be lovely to have

Finally how does charging the 12V work, I imagine its just a DC-DC converter from the battery pack to somewhere in the region of 13.8 volts, perhaps the Zoe one will work?

thanks

[Kevin Sharpe]

Okay, thinking Zoe batteries (from a salvage Zoe i'll buy) anyway as i3 and others will eat into budget too much, if I strip away and install the modules what BMS can I use, as I doubt the OEM one will work?

I'm not sure you'll find much difference between ZOE and i3 battery prices. No doubt i3 batteries are more readily available because lots ZOE's had rented batteries.

Whatever battery you choose (based on room available in the car) then use the OEM BMS with a third party controller. Look at SimpBMS which is widely used on conversions.

Chill plate with fins (acting like a heat sink) should be fine then, I doubt ill be taking that many trips with more than 1 rapid charge anyway.

No 'fins' required... use liquid heating/cooling running through the chill plate... see ZOE pack for an example.

Is there any milage in finding a 22kW AC on board charger like the one that comes with the Zoe? to save money and 22kw AC would be lovely to have

I have no idea whether the ZOE charger has been hacked and details shared as open source. If it has then use it, if not use two Gen 2 Tesla chargers.

how does charging the 12V work, I imagine its just a DC-DC converter from the battery pack to somewhere in the region of 13.8 volts, perhaps the Zoe one will work?

The DCDC converts traction battery high voltage (say 400V) to ~14V to charge the '12V' battery and run the 12V systems (lights, controllers, fans, etc., etc.)

[Domt177]

I'm not sure you'll find much difference between ZOE and i3 battery prices. No doubt i3 batteries are more readily available because lots ZOE's had rented batteries.


Whatever battery you choose (based on room available in the car) then use the OEM BMS with a third party controller. Look at SimpBMS which is widely used on conversions.

No 'fins' required... use liquid heating/cooling running through the chill plate... see ZOE pack for an example.

I have no idea whether the ZOE charger has been hacked and details shared as open source. If it has then use it, if not use two Gen 2 Tesla chargers.

The DCDC converts traction battery high voltage (say 400V) to ~14V to charge the '12V' battery and run the 12V systems (lights, controllers, fans, etc., etc.)

thinking of buying an actual wrecked Zoe instead, that way I can sell any unused parts, and it should be cheaper, one sold on copart uk recently but can't figure out how to tell how much for. for 44kwh of i3 batteries will cost £9225 which is basically all of my budget, unless there's a cheaper source I haven't found

okay so cooling sounds pretty simple. doubt it will need to be very complicated anyway

I suppose ill try the Zoe charger but may have to find another, what would be stopping me if it wasnt hacked?

again ill try the Zoe 400v to 14v DCDC to charge the 12v

[Kevin Sharpe]

thinking of buying an actual wrecked Zoe instead, that way I can sell any unused parts, and it should be cheaper, one sold on copart uk recently but can't figure out how to tell how much for. for 44kwh of i3 batteries will cost £9225 which is basically all of my budget, unless there's a cheaper source I haven't found

A wrecked car is a good option but be careful with copart that the car has a battery installed. Ideally you want to personally inspect the car and check the battery capacity.

For the best pricing you need to hunt down breakers and avoid 'retail' sites like eBay. If you must go 'retail' then Norway has some of the best pricing;

https://bildemontering.no/bildeler.aspx ... teripakker

I suppose ill try the Zoe charger but may have to find another, what would be stopping me if it wasnt hacked?

Most EV parts require CAN messages and data on connector pinouts to get them working. It's possible this has been done already but if not you should avoid this option if you don't have the skills to 'hack' the product yourself.

[Kevin Sharpe]

for 44kwh of i3 batteries will cost £9225 which is basically all of my budget

reality check... 30kWh Leaf, 65K miles, 1 owner from new, 8500 GBP ONO

https://eco-cars.net/electriccarforsale ... proid=8763

[Domt177]

thinking of buying an actual wrecked Zoe instead, that way I can sell any unused parts, and it should be cheaper, one sold on copart uk recently but can't figure out how to tell how much for. for 44kwh of i3 batteries will cost £9225 which is basically all of my budget, unless there's a cheaper source I haven't found

A wrecked car is a good option but be careful with copart that the car has a battery installed. Ideally you want to personally inspect the car and check the battery capacity.

For the best pricing you need to hunt down breakers and avoid 'retail' sites like eBay. If you must go 'retail' then Norway has some of the best pricing;

https://bildemontering.no/bildeler.aspx ... teripakker

I suppose ill try the Zoe charger but may have to find another, what would be stopping me if it wasnt hacked?

Most EV parts require CAN messages and data on connector pinouts to get them working. It's possible this has been done already but if not you should avoid this option if you don't have the skills to 'hack' the product yourself.

I can certainly go and inspect the car beforehand, makes sense. Where do you find a breaker.

I've worked with can for the last 15 years of my working life so know it inside out, if it is only CAN holding me back from using the Zoe 22kW charger then it should be doable

[Kevin Sharpe]

Where do you find a breaker.

Why not start with companies breaking EV's on eBay? Also breakers in your local area? You want to call them and build a relationship in the hope that they will offer you first refusal on any new cars/parts they get.

Also take a look at EV Breakers in Newry;

https://www.evbreakers.com/

I've worked with can for the last 15 years of my working life so know it inside out, if it is only CAN holding me back from using the Zoe 22kW charger then it should be doable

Great! Suggest you start with the links in this thread;

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=573

Please share any knowledge that you gain

Edit: I was chatting with a colleague who reminded me they'd had lots charger issues with the ZOE. It might be worth checking out comments on some ZOE forums before investing development time in the charger.

[Martin1775]

I've a remark on the Renault Charger System if you want to use it in a conversion, the Chameleon Charger uses the motor as part of the charging system, it is not a seperate unit.
If you look at the following site you find some comments to it.
https://www.eqpassion.de/en-gb/Efficien ... d_feedback