VW T5 Conversion For All

[stutchbury]

Hi

Some thoughts for a Sunday evening as a result of a short conversation on Twitter with @eamonambroseand @NewElectricIRL (Kevin, I think?) who suggested I share here.

First & foremost, this is not about converting *my* VW T5 – I’m not necessarily in the position to do that just yet – but about enabling the conversion of *all* T5s.

Why the T5?

- There are huge numbers still on the road - at 100,000+ miles my 2008 LWB still easily passes its MoT/emissions and is virtually rust free. It has at least another decade of pollution in it. There are few other van models that have decent enough longevity (ahem, Transit!) to make the EV investment worthwhile.

- They are not too heavy, fairly efficient (I can achieve 40+mpg), have a consistent chassis across the range of models and have plenty of underbody space for battery packs – they epitomise the Minimum Viable Van.

- The EV offerings from van manufacturers are obscenely expensive (rumours of £65k+ starting price) and include all the unnecessary 'autonomous aids'.

This is not about doing a one off conversion - apart from it being way above my pay grade, the idea of lots of people having to re-learn everything for themselves seems absurd. It surely must be possible to provide the resources & knowledge (perhaps even a kit) to allow any competent mechanic to convert a van.

This means a 'professional' conversion but one that avoids the ‘perfect is the enemy of good’ challenge. A design that does not use unreliable sources of (ie second hand) parts but specifies off the shelf components where possible and open source designs for custom components that can be supplied or manufactured to spec locally. Direct drive (YASA?), custom underfloor battery packs (a variety of range option), electric power steering, heating, glass dash etc. The open source approach of interoperable parts that do one thing well.

So, what can I offer? I’m allegedly semi-retired (which means I’m ‘busier’ than I’ve ever been!), based in the south of England (not exactly engineering central) but as a cabinet maker by trade & programmer by profession, I have a range of skills - programming (terabyte DBs to Arduinos), a bit of CAD (OpenSCAD), R&D and can actually make stuff. More than willing to ‘upskill’ & travel for the right reasons.

What would I like as an outcome? Well, to be a contributor to a dream team would be good but to enable a market that surely has potential would be better.

Thoughts?

Philip

[johu]

Sounding good. I've done a fair bit of work on the VW Touran CAN bus and to my knowledge most (all?) VW/Audi/.... VAG CAN busses use the same protocol. https://openinverter.org/wiki/Touran_Conversion . Feel free to start a T5 wiki page.
I also found that I hardly needed to add any wiring, as I could reuse most wiring looms with their original connector that used to be intended for something else.

Not sure if I would consider used electric drive trains an unreliable source, or at least, unreliable enough to justify the use of rather costly off-the-shelf components. All EVs or Hybrids go out of service at some point and their motors and inverters will hardly ever be at the end of their lifespan.

[stutchbury]

Hi Johu

I spent a lot of time reading your forum post - very good. Oddly enough, I have a 'dead' Touran on my drive...

On the reliability of used drive trains, it was the supply rather than the working order that was my concern. If there were a significant uptake of conversions (assuming it was almost plug & play) the supply of secondhand drive trains would struggle.

IIRC, the Touran CAN is a generation ahead of the T5 - I had cruise control retrofitted to the van a while back so I might be mis-remembering.

[johu]

Hi Philip
yes I took as "reliable source as in availability". Maybe we should attach some numbers to this, like average cost per unit and number of offers on ebay or something.
I read the T5 came out 2003. The Touran I convert is 2004. So hopefully they share the CAN bus layout. While searching for info it seemed like there was only one VW CAN protocol. But of course I'm somewhat "in the tunnel" there.

[stutchbury]

My Touran is 2003 and the T5 2008 but according to the company that did the cruise control install, the Touran had a 'newer, different' CAN bus system - certainly the cruise control on the van does not behave in the same way when incrementing speed up & down. I have a vague recollection they mentioned the bus speed was faster on the Touran but likely the protocol is the same on both.

It would be good to analyse the numbers on motors/drivetrains - one of the YT guys (Rich Rebuilds perhaps) was complaining about the price of written of Teslas approaching the price of secondhand vehicles because of the demand for the motors and battery packs. The Leaf currently has three (possibly six but not complete drivetrains) advertised on ebay, but I'm not sure they would be suitable for a van. I have no desire to make a 'fast' van, but wouldn't want to break things.

I have no idea of the cost (maybe I'll call them tomorrow), but I'm particularly drawn to the YASA motor (+diff) eg: https://www.yasa.com/news/p400-with-lig ... t-gearbox/

[doobedoobedo]

Just to chip in on leaf drivetrains, most don't get to ebay, certainly in the UK.

[Kevin Sharpe]

If there were a significant uptake of conversions (assuming it was almost plug & play) the supply of secondhand drive trains would struggle.

Toyota have sold 10 million hybrids since 1997 and many of the drivetrain parts are still available new through distribution. We will have no shortage of parts if we choose wisely

[tom91]

Anyone who is in the UK looking at doing conversions on vehicles past 2001 should be aware the DVLA process is a shit show.

Discussion thread on DIY Electric Car
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... 02137.html

Looks like no-one anticipated vehicles being modified to be zero emission when writing the legislation.

At Zero-EV we are having trouble with our Boxster fuel type change via the DVLA.

[JaniK]

In short:

EU area:
EU type approved vehicles should only be repaired with EU type approved parts. That is good for 90% of people who only go to the dealer/repair shop to maintain / fix their car. But for diy fixers and those who want to change the motor or modify anything else on their vehicles, it is plain stupid.

The MOT official should have the opportunity to use common sense. Changing anything to less polluting / safer should be allways legal.
- For example Brake upgrade and EV stuff.

[stutchbury]

Just to chip in on leaf drivetrains, most don't get to ebay, certainly in the UK.

I'd kinda thought that might be the case - in a previous life I restored a few classic cars - many of the parts were not available through the public retail channel but via word of mouth contact with traders.

[doobedoobedo]

Just to chip in on leaf drivetrains, most don't get to ebay, certainly in the UK.

I'd kinda thought that might be the case - in a previous life I restored a few classic cars - many of the parts were not available through the public retail channel but via word of mouth contact with traders.

I got mine through a breaker's website. They usually have several and I've never seen them on eBay.

[stutchbury]

If there were a significant uptake of conversions (assuming it was almost plug & play) the supply of secondhand drive trains would struggle.

Toyota have sold 10 million hybrids since 1997 and many of the drivetrain parts are still available new through distribution. We will have no shortage of parts if we choose wisely

Well there's something new I've learned already! Presumably it is possible to separate the electric drive from the ICE/generator/power splitter & run it without? I would like to understand more about the sustained output ability of a hybrid electric motor - the Prius owned by a friend only powers the vehicle at lower speeds - he says he's never had it running under A road/motorway load. Could an electric motor from a hybrid (probably not a Prius) sustain a potentially 3+ton vehicle within a comfortable margin? One of the reasons for T5 reliability is the massive over cooling & over oiling potential of the engine. It is finding that cost/suitability/reliability balance that will be key (as will your wisdom!).

I spoke with YASA this morning - their motor/controller would certainly be cost prohibitive as a one-off but potentially at the (very) high end of the ballpark for 10+ per year.

This is an interesting (for me) Toyota blog post from 2015: https://blog.toyota.co.uk/how-does-toyo ... drive-work
And this: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Toy ... _321621798 helped me visualise the setup.

[stutchbury]

Anyone who is in the UK looking at doing conversions on vehicles past 2001 should be aware the DVLA process is a shit show.

Discussion thread on DIY Electric Car
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... 02137.html

Looks like no-one anticipated vehicles being modified to be zero emission when writing the legislation.

At Zero-EV we are having trouble with our Boxster fuel type change via the DVLA.

There was similar consternation in classic car circles around the time SORN was introduced - lobbying resulted in the tax-exempt status of older vehicles. Whilst I'm not sure we'd have the same 'friends' in Parliament now, it is definitely worth writing to your MP about (snail mail is best - volume is better).

Of more concern might be certification of UK modified vehicles to drive in the EU - also something worth writing to your MP about (don't hold your breath, mine just says: "you lost, get over it" but using much longer words).

[stutchbury]

...Presumably it is possible to separate the electric drive from the ICE/generator/power splitter & run it without? I would like to understand more about the sustained output ability of a hybrid electric motor...

I'm sure I'm not the first to find it, but here is an incredibly detailed and informative playlist looking at the evolution of Toyota's hybrid drives by WebberAuto:



It would appear the generator is/can be used as a drive motor in some versions which may mitigate concerns about sustained heavy load. The latest version moved to a parallel shaft generator/motor arrangement which doesn't look quite as promising.

I have not viewed all the playlist yet - there's more than 2hrs for each version!

[Kevin Sharpe]

Presumably it is possible to separate the electric drive from the ICE/generator/power splitter & run it without? I would like to understand more about the sustained output ability of a hybrid electric motor - the Prius owned by a friend only powers the vehicle at lower speeds - he says he's never had it running under A road/motorway load. Could an electric motor from a hybrid (probably not a Prius) sustain a potentially 3+ton vehicle within a comfortable margin?

Can I suggest you review the Toyota/Lexus threads on this forum? You might also want to watch what happens when you put a Lexus dual motor 'gearbox' in a 2 ton 7 series BMW - The BEXUS

Also look out for our >2 ton trailer towing tests with this car in the next few weeks

[Kevin Sharpe]

Anyone who is in the UK looking at doing conversions on vehicles past 2001 should be aware the DVLA process is a shit show.

New bill being introduced in the UK that if it becomes law will give conversions the same status as new electric cars (including access to purchase subsidies);

https://twitter.com/bryworthington/stat ... 3201415168

[JaniK]

WoW, that is awesome!

Support for EV converting! Hope you get it!

in Finland we have 2000€ government grant for only purchase of a new EV, and 2020 we pay 24% VAT + 2,7% car tax, so they basicly tax a lot more than they support.
2734€ of taxes per 10000€ of car base price.

Converting old cars to natural/biogas you can apply for 1000€ grant after succesful MOT
Or
To ethanol 200€ after succesful MOT

You can use this as leverage to say that Finns have this and that, lets do better!

I would love to see ev conversion grant on that list

[doobedoobedo]

Of more concern might be certification of UK modified vehicles to drive in the EU - also something worth writing to your MP about (don't hold your breath, mine just says: "you lost, get over it" but using much longer words).

I've seen a fair few British kit cars being driven in France over the years, despite them being completely illegal to register there. So long as you've got the correct insurance and you're road legal here I can't see you having a problem.

[stutchbury]

Of more concern might be certification of UK modified vehicles to drive in the EU - also something worth writing to your MP about (don't hold your breath, mine just says: "you lost, get over it" but using much longer words).

I've seen a fair few British kit cars being driven in France over the years, despite them being completely illegal to register there. So long as you've got the correct insurance and you're road legal here I can't see you having a problem.

Oh yes, lots of them (my conversion included) - but things are likely to change after Dec 2020. TuV in particular is very, very different to UK regs.

[stutchbury]

Can I suggest you review the Toyota/Lexus threads on this forum? You might also want to watch what happens when you put a Lexus dual motor 'gearbox' in a 2 ton 7 series BMW - The BEXUS

Also look out for our >2 ton trailer towing tests with this car in the next few weeks

Will do. I've been following Damien on YT for a while - his delivery is just perfect

[idris]

I currently drive a VWT5 and have also thought of converting one (mine has only 150,000km on it so probably another) to electric. I though of using a Prius drive unit, using both MG1 n 2 you get quite a bit more power than the base model t5's. A set of custom driveshafts (Toyota inner and vw outer) and some custom (welded steel) motor mounts should take care of a bsic driev unit?
And as the OP said there is plenty of room underneath for (if avaliable) a tesla battery or for that matter most EV batteries. The earlier vans don't have CANBUS so no complications there?

[idris]

I have also been thinking of doing an EV conversion on a T5, I currently drive a basic version. I thought a Prius drive unit using both MG1 n2 would provide plenty of power (mor power than my van has anyway) and as the OP stated there is plenty of room underneath for whatever battery you would want to use. As for mounting, a set of custom driveshafts and some welded steel motor mounts should survice? The early vans have no can bus so nothing to worry about there, they even use the ABS for speedo signal AFAIK

[stutchbury]

The early vans have no can bus so nothing to worry about there, they even use the ABS for speedo signal AFAIK

This is a useful post on CAN bus versions on the T5 - says it has drive train CAN bus to the dash as well as convenience stuff from 2003.

https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/threads/can ... st-1397874

[Wookey]

Hi all. Just discovered this forum. And very impressed to see the fine work going on here. My only car is a campervan. Currently a 21-yr old Peugeot Expert. My van is old enough to pre-date the world of computerised cars and can buses. And I _very_ much like the idea of open controller designs, so I'm very pleased to see what you've been doing. Great work. I'm a free software person having been a Debian Developer for 20 years.

So the point is that my next vehicle needs to be an EV. However no-one is currently making useful range Vans or electric campers for less than 150 grand. (OK, there are a couple of env200-based machines with 80 mile ranges. That's not much use IMHO and still bloody expensive). So I'm interested in any project that might produce a viable vehicle without spending 70 grand+. Now I _could_ do that (i.e just spend the money), but having never spent more than 4 grand on a vehicle I'm not all that keen, and I do have the skills to DIY so I suspect that, whilst that will be a _lot_ of work, it might well produce something more like what I actually want. E.g. one thing I want is not to be tracked everywhere I go by the company that I bought the vehicle from - unfortunately most modern vehicles seem to provide this as a 'feature'.

My existing van is rather old to be sensible to spend the money and effort on a conversion, even though it is basically sound. I also want a slightly bigger van next time as we are over 50 now A T5 pop-top would be the minimum suitable size. But I'm really hankering after something sized more like a Renault master. But again the 54 grand they want for a new van with a 33kWh battery (!) (the same one they put int he Kangoo at a much more reasonable price) seems very poor value. I'm not yet sure if it's actually possible to make something the size and shape of a Master have decent range, in which case a T5 would do for now.

Campervans, especially used for wild-camping (as we mostly do), are a bit of a worst case for EV conversions - one often drives a very long way, possibly thousands of miles, then parks in the middle of nowhere with no destination charging. On the other hand one is often not in too much of a hurry. It can obviously be made to work given some changes in habits, as demonstrated by Mr Moody and his 24kWh env200 camper trip to Spain.

I'm interested to discuss with others who have been thinking about this problem. I have thought about it some, but have not sat down and done any real sums or detailed research on weights, kit and packaging. My conclusion so far is that Tesla and Kona drivetrains seem to be more efficient than most and the Tesla battery modules are nicely packaged with good energy density. Not cheap, but seem best bet to do the job without costing crazy money. And there should be quite a lot of model3s to steal bits out of, and the reverse engineering of at least the earlier hardware seems to have been done so you can use it without being tracked. But then I'd never heard of a Lexus hybrid drivetrain until today, so clearly have a lot to learn.

I look forward to learning from you all, and hopefully helping out. Right now this is all fairly theoretical because I am still in the process of turning my 1960s house into a nearly-passivehouse, which is going to keep me occupied for at least another year or two. Over that time I hope to be able to generate an 'EV camper' plan so I can get it done in less than a year once I actually start.

So Hi all Back to the T5 thread.