Hyundai Kona CCS controller Topic is solved

Development and discussion of fast charging systems eg Chademo , CCS etc
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Jack Bauer
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

That's fantastic Mike thanks so much. I should have a module to play with next week. If only the i3 logs were this easy ...
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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EVconverter
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by EVconverter »

Thanks for all your hard work on this, guys. I wish I had your technical skill in this area. Alas, my talents lie elsewhere.

I will happily work with someone to hammer this out once my build gets to the point where it's self-mobile and charging with a J1772 connector. I happen to live less than a mile from a CCS charger.
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Jack Bauer
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by Jack Bauer »

Much appreciated.
I'm going to need a hacksaw
mikeselectricstuff
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by mikeselectricstuff »

Looking at the BMW LIM , I think that looks like the better option than the Hyundai for multiple reasons - better availability, reasonable price (even if you have to buy a new one), contactor support etc.
I'm happy to do some logs of mine while charging if anyone really wants it, but I'll wait to see the progress on the i3 LIM for now.
brainstorm
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by brainstorm »

Hello everyone, I hope this doesn't come across as too off-topic for this thread, but I was theorizing a bit about using my 2021 Kona for V2H purposes... so this hack might tangentially involve the CCS controller ;)

Looking through the following info sources (let me know if there's more around):

1) The information on this thread.
2) The 2020 Hyundai service docs copy (1-day portal) I got from a nice internet guy over email.
3) Mike's video about the HV junction box:



I'm a bit skeptical about what Mike proposed: exposing the front CCS DC pins by forcing the HV junction box relays open and then putting a load on those two pins in the front would work (I'd love that to be possible)?

I guess that the main 3 levels of car systems cross-checking and potential concern for me would be:

1) Battery pack-level BMS circuitry detecting CCS port leakage that isn't accounted for (motor, battery care, cockpit electronics, etc...). Perhaps that CCS controller messages for that warning could be silenced?
2) Some other computer connected to the CAN gateway/hub accounting for that as well?
3) Some electrical isolation in this path I'm not accounting for (similar debate as Tesla's V2G rumored capabilities but ultimately infeasible at a circuit board/mosfet topology level):




I examined the official/public firmware updates for maps (perhaps the same ones they update at the dealership), but most of its payload looks encrypted so I guess that decryption happens on one of the ECUs. If anybody has dumped *that* "main" firmware I'd like to have a look at it with radare2, send me those to brainstorm at nopcode dot org.

Anyway, food for thought, I just wanted to get this out of my chest somewhere and here seems to be the right spot ;)
mikeselectricstuff
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by mikeselectricstuff »

My primary reason for not persuing this (yet) is that I don't know how easily any fault conditions can be reset if detected - in particular the isolation monitoring.
From what I currently know, I don't think it monitors the voltage at the DCFC pins on the connector side of the CCS contactors - the DC pins definitely measure open-circuit, and there is nothing in the service manual schematics to indicate any monitoring in the chargeport assembly. I'd probably want to look inside the chargeport to confirm this at some point.
It is possible that there is some monitoring of power draw - as there is no current monitoring in the HVJB, there probably is monitoring within the PTC heater, heatpump, aircon compressor and DC-DC as it can show power drawn by each system onscreen.
My hunch is that it probably doesn't use these for fault detection as it's unlikely to happen in the case of a real fault ( which doesn't trigger isolation monitoring).

Looking at the architecture, it appears that there is no way of it monitoring the CCS current alone, as it's switched to the main battery bus in the HVJB - the only current sensor shown is inside the battery pack. Considering that systems like aircon,PTC and DC/DC can be active during DC charging, it's possible that it doesn't even look at the DC charge current at all (Except maybe as an emergency trip), as it would get messy to discriminate this from current drawn by other systems.

The firmware updates available publicly are only for the infotainment unit, not any of the cars systems. There is very little info exchange between the infotainment and the rest of the car's systems.
I know for a fact that the car works just fine with borked infotainment firmware.

If I knew for definite that any error condition could be cleared without access for Hyundai's tools I'd investigate further.

The other approach would be to pretend to be a CCS charger and initiate a charge session to get it to close the contactors - this would be a cleaner approach and may also be applicable to other cars.
The only possible hurdles is that it may time out if no charge is received, or it may complain if charge current is negative. This is something that is likely to be rather implementation-dependent.

I do know from first-hand conversation with someone who has done it, that this approach works with the VW ID4.
paaa
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by paaa »

From my experience with a Kia Niro phev , looking into the manual after 4 starts warning light will reset and dtc will remain as inactive. Also car scanner app seems to work, so might help.Would one of the loop dc current multimeter do and you just put it around charge port dc cabling.
brainstorm
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by brainstorm »

mikeselectricstuff wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:33 pm My primary reason for not persuing this (yet) is that I don't know how easily any fault conditions can be reset if detected - in particular the isolation monitoring.
From what I currently know, I don't think it monitors the voltage at the DCFC pins on the connector side of the CCS contactors - the DC pins definitely measure open-circuit, and there is nothing in the service manual schematics to indicate any monitoring in the chargeport assembly. I'd probably want to look inside the chargeport to confirm this at some point.
It is possible that there is some monitoring of power draw - as there is no current monitoring in the HVJB, there probably is monitoring within the PTC heater, heatpump, aircon compressor and DC-DC as it can show power drawn by each system onscreen.
My hunch is that it probably doesn't use these for fault detection as it's unlikely to happen in the case of a real fault ( which doesn't trigger isolation monitoring).

Looking at the architecture, it appears that there is no way of it monitoring the CCS current alone, as it's switched to the main battery bus in the HVJB - the only current sensor shown is inside the battery pack. Considering that systems like aircon,PTC and DC/DC can be active during DC charging, it's possible that it doesn't even look at the DC charge current at all (Except maybe as an emergency trip), as it would get messy to discriminate this from current drawn by other systems.

The firmware updates available publicly are only for the infotainment unit, not any of the cars systems. There is very little info exchange between the infotainment and the rest of the car's systems.
I know for a fact that the car works just fine with borked infotainment firmware.

If I knew for definite that any error condition could be cleared without access for Hyundai's tools I'd investigate further.

The other approach would be to pretend to be a CCS charger and initiate a charge session to get it to close the contactors - this would be a cleaner approach and may also be applicable to other cars.
The only possible hurdles is that it may time out if no charge is received, or it may complain if charge current is negative. This is something that is likely to be rather implementation-dependent.

I do know from first-hand conversation with someone who has done it, that this approach works with the VW ID4.

Thanks Mike for addressing many of my points, much appreciated!

I've just edited my original post adding the two Tesla V2G videos for which I'm a bit concerned (which refer to point 3)... I'm not sure if Hyundai's CCS power systems are anywhere similar to Tesla's, but the author of the videos makes a compelling case as to why the board as-is for sure cannot handle high currents if it's not for the regular CCS charging usecase by examining how mosfets are arranged. In other words: setting aside the fault clearing stuff via software, how can we make sure that the current handling capacity for the involved V2X usecase will not surpass (blow?) something in that path?
mikeselectricstuff
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by mikeselectricstuff »

Any V2H/V2G type application is going to be doing way less current than the car running or rapid charging, so the answer is simple - just put fuses in line with whatever you are connecting.
This can easily be done inside the CCS connector, as we'd typically be looking in the low tens of amps range.
The car audio industry do some in-line holders for 38mm cartridge fuses
Img_0423.jpg
paaa
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Re: Hyundai Kona CCS controller

Post by paaa »

Does anyone have and can logs of one of the 28kwh ionic charging hoping to pickup battery pack charge connector and charge control module, just want to see what else is on powertrain can message wise is missing.
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