openinverter forum

Bram wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:21 pm I've mounted my outlander motor to the gearbox and fitted it into my car (VW Polo mk1)
last days I'm testing the motor and inverter, watched hours on video's and found my (i believe) the correct "syncofs".
but now mounted, with wheels off the ground, the motor rarely start out of itself, it always needs a tiny push on the wheel before spinning.
while spinning I can make him spin slowly and super fast with out weird noise, very smooth. (with manualid 0.1 - manaualiq 5.0) but it doesn't start itself (in manual nor closed loop) , I hear the inverter make noise, but wheels doesn't spin.

Going out on a limb, mostly because [Sgt Schultz voice]I know nothing[/voice] about Outlander motors and I do not see any glaringly obvious reasons for what you describe...

It would seem to me one might want to double check the motor data, I was under the impression there are no odd numbers in poles etc. In any event, you should not need to give a motor a push to start, so clearly something is not right.

Bram wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:52 pm Thanks, will give a try with a higher "throtcur" like a 2 or even 5?
Do i need to increase the "idcmax" accordingly ? from a 150 to an 300A?
About the throttle, i still use a pot

Yes, try something between 2 and 5.
throtcur is motor current while idcmax/min refers to battery current. At low speed/startup motor current can be many 100 amps while battery current is just a few amps.

johu wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:23 pm Yes, try something between 2 and 5.
throtcur is motor current while idcmax/min refers to battery current. At low speed/startup motor current can be many 100 amps while battery current is just a few amps.

Thanks, It runs great!
Changed "throtcur" into 2 (also tried 3, a bit to aggressive), and also changed "ocurlim" from 100 to 500.
Today connected the prius throttle, together it runs very smooth, and picks up great. AWESOME!
Can't wait to get on the road for a first test.

Thanks again for this great & fast support!

Great! Maybe this parameter should be more pronounced in the docs.

Agree, for some of this forum its obvious others dont have a clue about this kind of details (like myself), the wiki helped me a lot and took me at this piont, so this simple instructions are great help.

Another question: what is a reasonable/recommended "fmax"?
its now set to a 200 but I also tried 240 and even 300 but that scared me. Still smooth but really fast, like aan airplane about to start

fmax is max commutation frequency, and sets a limit on speed - fmax*60/polepairs = max rpm.

mjc506 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:19 am fmax is max commutation frequency, and sets a limit on speed - fmax*60/polepairs = max rpm.

Thanks MJC506, this helps.
then a 300Hz in my case(5 polepairs) is nothing special

No probs. 3600rpm is pretty slow compared to max rpm (12000rpm I think for the Prius?) But yes, it can sound scary haha.

I have a question....

My DC relay FET is blown again and I have no idea why. Wiring is really simple: 12v to all three relays (PC, DC+ & DC-), PC directly grounds the PC and the DC- thru a diode connected to the PC signal. That means that the both DC relays are on by the DC FET once precharge is complete and that the PC and DC- are "on" during PC.

The replacement worked a few times and died, the signal to the FET from the mirco is fine. I am presuming that the spike by the opening of the coil circuit for both DC relays at shut-down is just too much for the DC FET to handle, but have no way to confirm it.

Well, there is no freewheeling diode on board. Can you add one to each relay? Cathode to 12V.

johu wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:18 pm Well, there is no freewheeling diode on board. Can you add one to each relay? Cathode to 12V.

Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicion, it was unkind of Nissan to use unsuppressed relays but is an easy fix

Hi guys,

After a first run on the road, I have an issue (VW Polo with a Prius Gen 2 inverter and outlander rear motor)
when accelerating until approx 200Hz you can play with the speed, and remove you foot from the throttle instantly without problems. But once on a higher speed and remove foot from the throttle massive push back (regen or blocking), without load as in this movie, but also while I was driving with a higher rpm once remove the foot from throttle (no brakes) massive push back, like an emergency break. not good for my gearbox and motor.



tried to minimize the regen setting and "throtmin", but no effect

what could cause this?

"curkp": 64,
"curki": 20000,
"curkifrqgain": 50,
"fwkp": -100,
"dmargin": -2000,
"syncofs": 61600,
"polepairs": 5,
"respolepairs": 5,
"encmode": 4,
"fmax": 300,
"numimp": 60,
"dirchrpm": 100,
"dirmode": 1,
"snsm": 12,
"pwmfrq": 1,
"pwmpol": 0,
"deadtime": 0,
"ocurlim": 400,
"il1gain": 3.15,
"il2gain": 3.15,
"udcgain": 3.75,
"udcofs": 325,
"udclim": 540,
"snshs": 0,
"pinswap": 5,
"bmslimhigh": 50,
"bmslimlow": -1,
"udcmin": 72,
"udcmax": 300,
"idcmax": 250,
"idcmin": -250,
"tmphsmax": 100,
"tmpmmax": 300,
"throtmax": 100,
"throtmin": 0,
"chargemode": 0,
"chargecur": 0,
"chargekp": 80,
"chargeki": 10,
"chargeflt": 8,
"chargepwmin": 0,
"chargepwmax": 90,
"potmin": 1050,
"potmax": 4095,
"pot2min": 2110,
"pot2max": 4095,
"potmode": 0,
"throtramp": 0.28,
"throtramprpm": 6000,
"throtcur": 3,
"brknompedal": -10,
"regenramp": 0.09,
"brknom": 1,
"brkmax": -1,
"brkcruise": -1,
"brkrampstr": 10,
"brkout": -10,
"idlespeed": 0,
"idlethrotlim": 50,
"idlemode": 0,
"speedkp": 0.25,
"speedflt": 5,
"cruisemode": 0,
"udcsw": 75,
"udcswbuck": 0,
"tripmode": 0,
"pwmfunc": 0,
"pwmgain": 100,
"pwmofs": 0,
"canspeed": 1,
"canperiod": 0,
"manualiq": 0,
"manualid": 0

Bram wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:23 pm Hi guys,

After a first run on the road, I have an issue (VW Polo with a Prius Gen 2 inverter and outlander rear motor)
when accelerating until approx 200Hz you can play with the speed, and remove you foot from the throttle instantly without problems. But once on a higher speed and remove foot from the throttle massive push back (regen or blocking), without load as in this movie, but also while I was driving with a higher rpm once remove the foot from throttle (no brakes) massive push back, like an emergency break. not good for my gearbox and motor.

Yes... this is why i went Lebowski route for my immediate conversion.
Where is your max RPM point? Can you extend that to 600Hz? You may also change "idcmin" to 0 to try to get rid of regen.

Uh lets not send people to another system but rather solve the problem here.
What version are you running?
I remember that issue from way back.
Only parameter that is different from mine is curkp=64, I have it at 32.

arber333 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:44 pm

Bram wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:23 pm Hi guys,

After a first run on the road, I have an issue (VW Polo with a Prius Gen 2 inverter and outlander rear motor)
when accelerating until approx 200Hz you can play with the speed, and remove you foot from the throttle instantly without problems. But once on a higher speed and remove foot from the throttle massive push back (regen or blocking), without load as in this movie, but also while I was driving with a higher rpm once remove the foot from throttle (no brakes) massive push back, like an emergency break. not good for my gearbox and motor.

Yes... this is why i went Lebowski route for my immediate conversion.
Where is your max RPM point? Can you extend that to 600Hz? You may also change "idcmin" to 0 to try to get rid of regen.

Thanks Arber, Surething I can increase frequency to 600Hz, I waited to increase due to this issue. Thanks about the 'Idcmin', I've missed it in trying to reduce or switch off the Regen. Let me test this afternoon. Thanks

johu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:39 am Uh lets not send people to another system but rather solve the problem here.
What version are you running?
I remember that issue from way back.
Only parameter that is different from mine is curkp=64, I have it at 32.

I'm still very pleased with the FOC performance. test run was great, until ...
I tried 4.87, and 4.97 both the same problem

arber333 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:44 pm Yes... this is why i went Lebowski route for my immediate conversion.
Where is your max RPM point? Can you extend that to 600Hz? You may also change "idcmin" to 0 to try to get rid of regen.

I tried the idcmin to 0, and unfortunate that didnt work.

When I plot 'idc' while turning, it still created a -300Amp when letting go the throttle.
How can i turn off regen completely?

You turned it off completely, already by setting brkmax=-1. idcmin essentially just limit brkmax.
So it is some controller overshoot that still causes unwanted regen. I'm assuming it is just a surge and than tapers off?
Parameters you can play with, one at time:
- curki - increase/decrease by 2000 digit and see if it has an influence
- curkigain - +-5 digit increments
- fwkp - +-10 digit increments

Flash this firmware: viewtopic.php?p=26076#p26076 (will be released regularly soon anyway)

johu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:27 pm You turned it off completely, already by setting brkmax=-1. idcmin essentially just limit brkmax.
So it is some controller overshoot that still causes unwanted regen. I'm assuming it is just a surge and than tapers off?
Parameters you can play with, one at time:
- curki - increase/decrease by 2000 digit and see if it has an influence
- curkigain - +-5 digit increments
- fwkp - +-10 digit increments

Flash this firmware: viewtopic.php?p=26076#p26076 (will be released regularly soon anyway)

to answer your question; I'm assuming it is just a surge and than tapers off?
please check this picture, pretty radical and steep, http://breitt.nl/images/IDC-ID-IQ%20plot.jpg

I hope this helps

EDIT by johu: attached plot

Ah that was you
I wonder if something is not tuned right. Sure about syncofs? What happens with fwkp=0? Try the other suggestions also.

After days of testing, swapping and swearing we have results!
The car drives very smooth, and seems pretty efficient too. I'm still driving with a 100A fuse (72S Li-ion), but this will probably die fast, once we gonna try some fast 0-60Km/h

The trick;
I lowered the curkifrqgain from 50 > 0 and Curki from 20000 > 2000
it seems pretty radical compared to the defaults, do you believe this could do any harm?

Background
I have 3 Gen2 inverters first I tried number 1, he had this "regen/overshoot" issue per above, first after tweaking i couldn get it smoothed out, so I replace the inverter with number 2, he reacted different, no overshoot so i thought this is good, different is good but he started not perfect as number one 1, tweaked him in closed loop, but noway he could start loaded (wheels on the ground), only shaking etc. cost me 8hours of work, but now know what a bad inverter is (probably)
Tried the 3rd one, reacted exactly the same as the first, so the overshoot is not a borken inverter/IGBT's then!? that was cleared out. I had to listen to Damien "you cant kill a toyota inverter" even after fedfing the inverter 14.5V (closer do 15v saturation?? you become disperate if it doesnt work, sorry for that) instead of car battery 12V, the igbt screams a bit louder, but now difference.
I've learned a lot, at the end lowering curki's did the trick for me, probably I will tweak more coming days, but just wanted to share this.

It's surprising, but I do think curki is somewhat motor dependent. So why not. It won't do harm as in breaking something, you just have to check for good performance and behaviour at different speeds and torque requests.

ok im still trying to power up the thing, im stuck on the 2 relays for pin 15 and pin 16 on the vcu,

pin 15 is DCSW_OUT ( i think thats high voltage battery 200V switch VCU PROVIDES [-] you connect [+]12v )
wiring diagram calls it DC RLY GND

pin 16 is PREC_OUT ( im pretty sure is high voltage battery 200V pre-charge boot up sequence, you provide [+] and VCU again provides [-]12v )
wiring diagram calls it PC RLY GND.



and damien says dont put the HV battery in the official battery connections bc he doesnt want to go through the buck boost converter, but what if i DO want to go through the boost, i want allotta voltage, more than i got in hand. and its an ability of the inverter that id like to use once i start to get a grip. any help is much appreciated

pablo wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 7:20 pm ok im still trying to power up the thing, im stuck on the 2 relays for pin 15 and pin 16 on the vcu,

pin 15 is DCSW_OUT ( i think thats high voltage battery 200V switch VCU PROVIDES [-] you connect [+]12v )
wiring diagram calls it DC RLY GND

pin 16 is PREC_OUT ( im pretty sure is high voltage battery 200V pre-charge boot up sequence, you provide [+] and VCU again provides [-]12v )
wiring diagram calls it PC RLY GND.

I believe that is correct. You can connect the negative side of the contactors through those pins. Precharge will activate on start up I believe until the HVbus is at the desired voltage, then the main relay will activate and the precharge relay will drop back out. I am not using these pins directly to control my contactors. I was a little worried that they might not be powerful enough to handle the gigavac contactors I'm using. But I am using them as signal wires that will help my VCU to decide when to switch relays, along with other inputs.

pablo wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 7:20 pm and damien says dont put the HV battery in the official battery connections bc he doesnt want to go through the buck boost converter, but what if i DO want to go through the boost, i want allotta voltage, more than i got in hand. and its an ability of the inverter that id like to use once i start to get a grip. any help is much appreciated

I'm planning to use the original battery connectors on my inverter. Didn't see anything about not using them.

LRBen wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:35 am I believe that is correct. You can connect the negative side of the contactors through those pins. Precharge will activate on start up I believe until the HVbus is at the desired voltage, then the main relay will activate and the precharge relay will drop back out.

Correct. Make SURE the control circuit is back-emf protected!!!!!

I am not using these pins directly to control my contactors. I was a little worried that they might not be powerful enough to handle the gigavac contactors I'm using.

As I recall, they will sink 5A each, that is a LOT of power for a coil.