Outlander rear motor and inverter

Mitsubishi hybrid drive unit hacking
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tom91
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by tom91 »

Zapatero wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:27 am Does the inverter care if the motor runs forward or backwards? I'm aksing because i mounted one motor forward (rear) and one backward (front) in my car. Will they both behave the same regarding max RPM, Regen etc...
So far I have not found any limits in both directions. So wil be have the same regardless.

Has anyone every asked for more then 200Nm over can to see what it would do?
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

Ok so a bit more experimenting today with coding and CANBUS. Defined all relevant values on the code to int16_t, just in case teensy 32bit ints were messing things up.
Confirmed that I am getting a negative value when I multiple torquerequest by -1.

Rotation direction doesn't change if I multiple by -1 or not. Attached some canbus logs from both settings.
From what I can tell the canbus logs look like I would expect them too for commanding negative torque.
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positive torque request.csv
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negative torque request.csv
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by aot93 »

Those CAN values appear right.

It would also be worth checking what the motor is reporting for torque and RPM 0x289:

Code: Select all

void canRX_289(const CAN_message_t &msg)
{
  motorTorque = ((((msg.buf[0] * 256) + msg.buf[1]) - 10000) / 10); // Motor Torque -200 / + 200nm
  motorRPM = (msg.buf[2] * 256 + msg.buf[3] - 20000);               // Rear RPM -10000,10000,RPM negative is reverse
Can't really think of anything else that would only make it run forwards, but worth check phase order and resolvers.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

Interestingly the inverter is reporting negative torque when it should be. Which would suggest there is an error in the physical setup.

I've play around with the resolver order before, but anything apart from this current order doesn't spin at all.

Edit: Gone through my setup again and also the FOC tuning video. I think I have the answer, it is probably just the polarity wrong on resolver connectors, since I don't have the OEM connector. Will report back.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by bexander »

A bit of topic from the current discussion but still on the thread subject. I'm trying to find the maximum width of the rear motor package including gearbox and mounts, see red markings in picture. Please, is there anyone who can share this dimension?
PXL_20220725_112938856.jpg
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

LRBen wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:00 pm Edit: Gone through my setup again and also the FOC tuning video. I think I have the answer, it is probably just the polarity wrong on resolver connectors, since I don't have the OEM connector. Will report back.
Was resolver polarity in the end! Spinning the correct way now.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by tom91 »

LRBen wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:56 pm Was resolver polarity in the end! Spinning the correct way now.
Can you now also spin in reverse with a negative torque command?
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by Pete9008 »

bexander wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:37 pm A bit of topic from the current discussion but still on the thread subject. I'm trying to find the maximum width of the rear motor package including gearbox and mounts, see red markings in picture. Please, is there anyone who can share this dimension?
PXL_20220725_112938856.jpg
Measured 65cm on mine.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

tom91 wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:58 pm Can you now also spin in reverse with a negative torque command?
Curiously no. Spins the same way regardless of positive or negative torque commands. I have the gearbox so doesn't affect me. But obviously still not ideal.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

Additionally. RPM is now reporting as negative.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by bexander »

Pete9008 wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:04 pm Measured 65cm on mine.
Great, thank you!!
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by Pete9008 »

bexander wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:20 pm Great, thank you!!
No problem, the motor is just sitting on the garage floor at the moment so its easy to take measurements if you need anything else.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

Looks like I'm not quite there on the setup of this motor. Spins up nice and smooth with wheels off the ground. But when I try to move the vehicle under it's own power it judders. Edit: it actually does have some power. Can take off in 2nd and 3th no problem, actually seems smoother in higher gears.

I changed my throttle position multiplier to * 19, in order to get close to the torque request limit of 2000 before the +10000 offset calculation but it has had no effect.

Could this be resolver issues again? It is a mismatch motor/inverter. I would assume my inability to switch direction of the motor with negative torque commands is also probably related.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

On further testing and consideration. I think this might just be a case of the motor stalling at low torque request? If I put my foot down quicker it smooths out. So I'm thinking it might be a case of having to improve my code for torque request to smooth it all out.

This is the judder in reverse gear so there is some additional gearbox noise.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by aot93 »

That does not sound great!
Should be no need for smoothing, I only smooth for a calmer drive and to limit wheel spin.

No direction control does point to an underlying problem though and I'm sure this is related.

For this specific behaviour I would check:
Is there anything else on the CAN bus that can transmit messages, such as the outlander charger?
Could be the inverter receiving a 0 or no torque request every second or so, ie CAN packet loss. Check your CAN wiring and resistance
RSDN pulled low or still floating?
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

So a bit more messing around. I think I can rule out canbus issues, savvycan doesn't suggest any dropped messages, I also ran the VCU canbus straight to the inverter with nothing else and had the same behavior.

RSDN pulled low or floating had no effect.

So I tried swapping the resolver wires back to how they were before when it span backwards. Now it's very smooth but lacking power and also spinning the other way.
Feels like this is a basic setup issue. The down side to no bench testing before throwing it in the vehicle.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by LRBen »

Looks like it was basic setup. Since I chopped up the resolver wiring to use it with the Prius inverter I had nothing to go on for resolver polarity etc. Add on to that the resistance readings for to two pairs of the resolver signals are within spec of each other there were allot of combinations to get through.

The polarity of R1 and R2 also had an effect so I had to go through those combinations as well. Pretty close now though. I can command negative torque and it works. I have power and smooth delivery. It does want to spin backwards by default, but multiplying the torque command by -1 fixes that.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by bobby_come_lately »

Thought you might be interested to know in this thread that I seem to have destroyed an Outlander rear motor. Not sure of the cause yet, but as you can see in latest vid, it ain't spinning any more.

Current suggestions of cause (I have no idea yet):
- Bearing failure due to poor alignment
- Overheat/burnout due to failed cooling/too much current

I'm going to get the faceplate off and take a look when I can get back to the garage.

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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by arber333 »

bobby_come_lately wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:58 pm Thought you might be interested to know in this thread that I seem to have destroyed an Outlander rear motor. Not sure of the cause yet, but as you can see in latest vid, it ain't spinning any more.

Current suggestions of cause (I have no idea yet):
- Bearing failure due to poor alignment
- Overheat/burnout due to failed cooling/too much current

I'm going to get the faceplate off and take a look when I can get back to the garage.
Well the OC events leads me to believe one of the phases is shorting the motor casing probably. If one phase is shorting into the other you would get constant resistance to turning.
Did you have your motor in moist enviroment or maybe somewhere solvents could damage phase wiring laquer?
Some time ago I was dealing with ACIM motor that would drive normaly under 150Arms. Whenever i would exceed current inverter would throw OC. It took me like a month of testing, but i finally took apart that motor to find traces of water damage on rotor and phase wires. Obviously motor was submerged at one time and one phase was shorting just enough to trip OC under higher amps.
Check the phase wire bolts, maybe you have a short there...

Also Would it be possible your coupler would push on the bearing enough for it to sieze?

Best to take apart the motor and check stator wiring for damage. When you are at it inspect rotor for damage too.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by bobby_come_lately »

Thanks Arber. Interesting. I don't think it has been subject to any moisture/solvents but obviously it's from a scrapyard so who knows. It's mounted on the bottom of a 4x4 (albeit one that's rarely used beyond the school run) in its normal application so seems unlikely damage would come that way. Wonder if too much coolant pressure could have damage the channels. Maybe when I open it it will be full of water! (I don't actually believe this).

I hadn't considered longitudinal pressure on the shaft. That's a possibility if my measurements were out. I did screw that up first time around, making my coupler too long. I thought I fixed that but it is a definite possibility.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by arber333 »

bobby_come_lately wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:42 am

I hadn't considered longitudinal pressure on the shaft. That's a possibility if my measurements were out. I did screw that up first time around, making my coupler too long. I thought I fixed that but it is a definite possibility.
Well did you hear any bearing noises with motor accelerating or shifting?

You need to open the phase wire cover and measure resistance and inductance of phases. You can do that the ohm way.
Measuring the current/voltage drop of 12v through both phases and dividing that to get one phase.

Also applying 12V will show you if rotor is still alive. As soon as you apply voltage rotor will tend to jump to one side, magnet pull...
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by bobby_come_lately »

Opened it up and it's pretty obvious - total bearing failure. Not pulled the rotor out to see if there was any damage from contact between that and the stator yet. Looks like it overheated, which would be consistent with longitudinal pressure on the shaft.
20220917_121041.jpg
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by Bratitude »

bobby_come_lately wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:10 pm Opened it up and it's pretty obvious - total bearing failure.
20220917_121041.jpg
Yikes. Time to dig through skf and find replacements!
Hope your windings are safe.

I just picked one of these up in a package deal. Pulled the axle stub... and thought the bearing seal looked close to...
4FB14D08-5339-495A-8991-CCEE427F56D8.jpeg
893616F2-8D7B-404F-9222-0D9AEDDC6C2A.jpeg
A vw beetle stub flange!
Type 1/90mm will clear the motor. But a extruded boss on the motor comes close
A9CEA485-BC91-4585-9C41-0390C9A22ECA.jpeg
If there’s enough room to shave the extruded boss, then a typ2 (100mm) cv flange should fit.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by tom91 »

Bratitude wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:08 am A vw beetle stub flange!
Type 1/90mm will clear the motor. But a pressed in cap and boss come close A9CEA485-BC91-4585-9C41-0390C9A22ECA.jpeg

If there’s enough room the shave some of it down the n a typ2 (100mm) cv flange will fit.
I am very interested in coming up with a drive shaft/flange solution as getting the shafts is getting difficult.
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Re: Outlander rear motor and inverter

Post by Bratitude »

tom91 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:41 pm I am very interested in coming up with a drive shaft/flange solution as getting the shafts is getting difficult.
The company im working with whom are cold rolling the stubs i have designed for the leaf gearbox, do all the oem prototypes. theyll have no problem making a stub for these.

is there any particular CV you have in mind? i was just thinking of making a stub shaft with the 33 vw spline so all the VW flanges fit. apposed to doing a full custom cv, say one that works with a mini shaft, would be very expensive.
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