GS450H Discussion

Topics concerning the Toyota and Lexus inverter drop in boards
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ggeter
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

Great stuff. I finished all my wiring harnesses over the holidays. Hope I can post a similar bit of inspiration in a month or two. Thank you!
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Gigas »

That's pretty amazing! I finished my stock harness and tried everything again - Nothing

Anybody have a working inverter they can spare - either to let me test and i'll pay shipping or one to sell?
What was I doing?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

ggeter wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:22 pm Great stuff. I finished all my wiring harnesses over the holidays. Hope I can post a similar bit of inspiration in a month or two. Thank you!
Video of first spin! Because I've never done this before, I got some things wrong in the video:

1. Resolvers are made with Cat 8, not 6. I do use Cat 5 for a few things. No cat 6 was harmed to make this Frankenharness.
2. That's the oil pump controller mounted on the inner fender well, not the motor itself.
3. I claim to hear relays in the transmission when turning on VCU -- I think it may be the solenoids.
4. Drawing 7 amps max at 31v with max torque set at 200 right now.
5. VCU was loaded with the "v3 User" version from Damien's GIT with no mods.

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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by arturk »

Congrats on your first spin :)
1998 Jaguar XJR, GS450h drivetrain, 48kWh/96s BMW battery
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

Ok, so got oil pump running and she's noisy. It may be because I discovered it's resting slightly on the car's frame rail. Need to fix that. But question: do these pumps sound silky smooth, or are they a little rough?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by evMacGyver »

ggeter wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:03 pm Ok, so got oil pump running and she's noisy. It may be because I discovered it's resting slightly on the car's frame rail. Need to fix that. But question: do these pumps sound silky smooth, or are they a little rough?
My pump got much better sound after bearing replace, even old ones was not bad and rotor was not scratched. Bearings are cheap to replace so why not, pumps are pricey and you'll see condition of rotor. No need to worry afterwards.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

Anybody got any workarounds for this oil pump? Aux pump with adapter plate?

And honest question: if I do not lock up input shaft and command MG1 to turn to mimic the input rotation of the ICE, and run only MG2 with proper solenoids engaged to move the car, can I forego the electric pump?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

ggeter wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:22 pm Anybody got any workarounds for this oil pump? Aux pump with adapter plate?

And honest question: if I do not lock up input shaft and command MG1 to turn to mimic the input rotation of the ICE, and run only MG2 with proper solenoids engaged to move the car, can I forego the electric pump?
Beginning to answer my own questions by *gasp* reading thru the forums.

If I'm to believe the drivetrain animation and Damien's video of the transmission making its own pressure while free-spinning, I propose the following for those with tiny British roadster projects like mine who a) don't really need MG1 for power generation, b) are afraid of burning out an expensive electric oil pump, and c) are far too deep in their project to go with another power unit:

1. DO NOT lock input shaft
2. Engage Brake 1 solenoid
3. Engage electric oil pump (EDIT3: don't even need to do this. Keep MG1 spinning to keep pressure up, no elec pump required. Car will creep, but then so do all ICE automatics...)
4. Increase throttle to get car rolling
5. Shut off electric oil pump
6. Apply a small amount of torque on MG1 so that the blue part of the drivetrain diagram rotates/slow down as needed to apply pressure (IS THIS EVEN NEEDED since in Damien's video, pressure rose to 100# and held fast?)
7. Use flywheel aspect of MG1 to add to regen constantly
8. BONUS: put an electric clutch on the input shaft so you can add in MG1 for poor man's "Plaid" mode when one really needs it

Poke holes, please.

-g.
GS450h trans gear diagram.jpg
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Jackk »

Quick question...

What are people using to cool atf ?

How large oil cooler is really needed?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

Anyone broken off the breather fitting on top of bell housing on their 450h trans? If so, what did you do? Can it be replaced?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by xp677 »

So many questions in here.

It should be easy to make an adapter plate and run any electric oil pump.

Yes you need the pump, the transmission is oil cooled and oil lubricated. There is an oil> water exchanger in the left side of the unit.

In the Lexus, I believe the oil cooler is inside the radiator end tanks, so you don't really need a big cooler.

What you're describing to implement to fake having an oil pump sounds horrific, by all means give it a go. I imagine adapter plates for inline oil pumps would be cheap.

Maybe (I don't know) you could just blank off the oil pump flange and run an inline pump on the trans cooler lines.

I never had a breather, I just jammed a piece of sponge in the hole on mine. Oil does like to escape this hole if you roll the transmission over.

Stock oil pump is loud when empty or when air is introduced. It's very quiet when supplied with oil that's not full of air.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

xp677 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:40 pm So many questions in here.

It should be easy to make an adapter plate and run any electric oil pump.

Yes you need the pump, the transmission is oil cooled and oil lubricated. There is an oil> water exchanger in the left side of the unit.

In the Lexus, I believe the oil cooler is inside the radiator end tanks, so you don't really need a big cooler.

What you're describing to implement to fake having an oil pump sounds horrific, by all means give it a go. I imagine adapter plates for inline oil pumps would be cheap.

Maybe (I don't know) you could just blank off the oil pump flange and run an inline pump on the trans cooler lines.

I never had a breather, I just jammed a piece of sponge in the hole on mine. Oil does like to escape this hole if you roll the transmission over.

Stock oil pump is loud when empty or when air is introduced. It's very quiet when supplied with oil that's not full of air.
Many thanks! I'll report back on results.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Jonr »

I think this has been done before. For my 24volt test rig, I needed a cover for the GS450 inverters high voltage connectors, so I printed this in orange PETG.

If you would like to do the same, the gcode files are attached.(you'll need to rename them from.txt to .gcode)

Now the disclaimer - you use the files and cover at your own risk.
Attachments
GS450_InverterCover.txt
(6.5 MiB) Downloaded 122 times
GS450_InverterCoverLid.txt
(935.5 KiB) Downloaded 104 times
InverterCoverWithLid.JPG
InverterCover.JPG
Project : GS450h into BMW 3 Series Touring?
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by AdrianB »

Did anyone ever get the GS450H DC/DC converter working? I’ve just removed mine from the HV battery assembly but I don’t have any idea how it’s controlled.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by xp677 »

AdrianB wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:22 pm Did anyone ever get the GS450H DC/DC converter working? I’ve just removed mine from the HV battery assembly but I don’t have any idea how it’s controlled.
Try this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=538

Still needs work. I had it work for a while, until the IPM shorted to ground after an hour or so.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by AdrianB »

xp677 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:03 pm
AdrianB wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:22 pm Did anyone ever get the GS450H DC/DC converter working? I’ve just removed mine from the HV battery assembly but I don’t have any idea how it’s controlled.
Try this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=538

Still needs work. I had it work for a while, until the IPM shorted to ground after an hour or so.
Thanks. I’ll try and wrap my brain cell around that info. It’s probably beyond my basic knowledge and skills though.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Gregski »

ggeter wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:05 pm Anyone broken off the breather fitting on top of bell housing on their 450h trans? If so, what did you do? Can it be replaced?
yup, and nothing yet (strength in numbers, ha ha)
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Gregski »

my GS450h transmission / inverter combo came with one of the high voltage orange cables with a nick in it, so I thought it would be a good time as any to unwrap it and see it's internal construction, thought I would share, I also hope to reroute one of them to go to the left from the inverter instead of both heading to the right

IMG_1474.JPG
IMG_1475.JPG

there were also two white zip ties inside the metal webbing helping it keep it's 90° shape
IMG_1478.JPG
IMG_1480.JPG

that's as far as I got with the transmission mocked up in the truck, I will unwrap more later
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

I've got my 450h MG Midget running. Post here: viewtopic.php?p=39419#p39419

Of note in this thread: I am running w/o the input spline locked. Once underway, I don't need the pump since the internal mechanical pump is allowed to turn. At 1500 max torque setting in the VCU, this car is plenty fast enough on just the one motor. Will post code here as I intend to modify VCU to use MG1 to pre-charge the oil pressure at stop signs. Right now, I engage the pump to get rolling and then can turn it off once underway.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Gregski »

ggeter wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:23 pm I've got my 450h MG Midget running. Post here: viewtopic.php?p=39419#p39419

Of note in this thread: I am running w/o the input spline locked. Once underway, I don't need the pump since the internal mechanical pump is allowed to turn. At 1500 max torque setting in the VCU, this car is plenty fast enough on just the one motor. Will post code here as I intend to modify VCU to use MG1 to pre-charge the oil pressure at stop signs. Right now, I engage the pump to get rolling and then can turn it off once underway.
thank you so much for your post, I intend to do the same for the following reasons

1. I am lazy and don't feel like locking out the input shaft (dumb, yes I know)
2. I wan to dyno the vehicle with just MG2 to see what horse power it truly puts out
3. keep the build very simple I also plan on running just a single BMW 530e (six cell module) 9 kWh battery pack to start

could you please check out the following comments on my build thread about how locking the input shaft can limit the top RPM

TheSilverBuick wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:37 pm Your thread! The last post quotes another thread that I linked below.

viewtopic.php?p=35739#p35739

viewtopic.php?t=1322
sfk wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:13 pm Worth pointing out that MG1 and MG2 could be operating at different RPM depending if you use the Lock Input Shaft method or Lock Planetary Gearset method.

Locking the planetary gearset will cause them to spin at same speed and direction with a max RPM around 11,000ish due to the limits of the bearings. In High gear 1.9 reduction this will result in about 5,250rpm coming out the back of the transmission.

Locking the input shaft will cause MG1 to spin 2.2x in the opposite direction to MG2. Thereby MG1 will reach the bearing speed limits much earlier than MG2 and limit the total output RPM. This will result in a max RPM of about 2,600.

Divide that by your 3.36 axle ratio and you have your rear wheel RPM and it's just a final step to factor in your tyre circumference to find your max road speed.
But neither locking the input shaft, nor welding the planetaries, I think will cause power to spin MG1/Input shaft instead of the output shaft when serious torque is applied, but perhaps not? In another thread about oil pressure, someone mentioned spinning up MG1 to run the mechanical pump as soon as practical to limit time on the electric one, and the side benefit was it possibly allowed for neither a locked input shaft nor welded planetaries, hence my first question. But the oil pump discussion doesn't have anything to do with your project.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

Yes, bearing limits on MG1 are a concern. My code will also have to monitor MG1 speed and I can apply negative torque to keep it within range. This will be an in-town car mostly, rarely getting up to highway speeds, so I may not ever see those rotational speeds.

For now, all I did in the code is set MG1 torque to zero right before the commands are sent to the inverter.

Interesting though, the flywheel effect of MG1 spinning down after accelerating to a constant speed generates regen while MG2 is consuming power (at least that what my amp meter is suggesting --- but as noted in my post, the meter is only reporting 10-12 amps under full acceleration, so it *has* to be wrong, right?).

*Lazy* is part of my excuse, too. But more than that, I did not want to have to replace the pump when it goes out. It's packed so tight in this little car I'd have to disassemble the entire battery pack to get to it. Plus, it's a shame to not use the more robust mechanical pump. I considered putting an electromagnetic clutch on the input spline so I could lock it up when I needed more power. But honestly, I can't put down any more power to the ground than MG2 will give. It's a monster.

My build is pretty simple, and lots of random "what I can find in the garage" parts. Happy to share any more details with you.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Bryson »

I’ve been playing with the software in mine lately, I’ve got only MG2 active until 20% throttle (to 50% of it’s available torque), then MG1 ramps up from 20-50% throttle while keeping MG2 constant, then they both ramp up together after 50% as the original firmware had them.

This keeps the car more efficient in most use cases where you’re in light throttle, using one motor at higher torque/efficiency versus two motors at lower torque/efficiencies. This also eliminated some gear lash noise I was getting around 20mph (~2k RPM).

Tuning the transition from one motor ramping to another forced me to roughly learn the torque/power split between the two. When MG2 is in second gear, MG1 provides approximately 50% more torque/power to the output shaft than MG2, assuming that torque commands are linear.

As MG2’s transmission is a 1.9:1 ratio (from memory, correct me if I’m wrong), that would put MG2 in First gear at 27% more torque/power than MG1.

Either way, MG1 makes a very significant contribution!
‘70 jag XJ6, GS450h drivetrain, 102s Tesla pack
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by ggeter »

That's cool. In my case, all MG1 will be used for is priming the oil pressure and flywheel regen. A waste to be sure, but unless I beef up the rear end on this car and double the tire width, I would never be able to use the extra power!
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by TheSilverBuick »

Gregski wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:36 pm
ggeter wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:23 pm I've got my 450h MG Midget running. Post here: viewtopic.php?p=39419#p39419

Of note in this thread: I am running w/o the input spline locked. Once underway, I don't need the pump since the internal mechanical pump is allowed to turn. At 1500 max torque setting in the VCU, this car is plenty fast enough on just the one motor. Will post code here as I intend to modify VCU to use MG1 to pre-charge the oil pressure at stop signs. Right now, I engage the pump to get rolling and then can turn it off once underway.
thank you so much for your post, I intend to do the same for the following reasons

1. I am lazy and don't feel like locking out the input shaft (dumb, yes I know)
2. I wan to dyno the vehicle with just MG2 to see what horse power it truly puts out

3. keep the build very simple I also plan on running just a single BMW 530e (six cell module) 9 kWh battery pack to start

could you please check out the following comments on my build thread about how locking the input shaft can limit the top RPM
Be mindful, with out powering MG1 it "may" be turning backwards as MG2 is spun up, along with turning the mechanical oil pump backwards. Running the electric pump would keep the system supplied in oil.
Need to learn. Starting from the basics.
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Re: GS450H Discussion

Post by Bryson »

You’re a prime candidate for welding the planetary carrier!
‘70 jag XJ6, GS450h drivetrain, 102s Tesla pack
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