openinverter forum

They've decided not to pursue back payments now i believe, I'll be asking my MP to refer to ombudsman next

Well that is good news.
It seems that Dave (RX8 guy) has a fully mot'd and legal car now.
His you tube video explains how to get past the emissions part of the test.

It's good that there is a bodge to get the car MOT'd but it's ridiculous that we have to have our electric cars registered as petrol or diesel.
It kind smacks of incompetence by the folk who created the current regulations since electric car conversions were being done back then too.

Alibro wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:00 pm …it's ridiculous that we have to have our electric cars registered as petrol or diesel.
It kind smacks of incompetence by the folk who created the current regulations since electric car conversions were being done back then too.

Not actually a problem with the regs. They are abundantly clear that "electrically propelled vehicles are exempt". It is the dunderheads at DVLA who refuse to accept that they cannot charge VED and make up their own alternative and INCORRECT interpretation of those regs. Let's apportion blame where blame is due and that's DVLA.

I think that this is not great but the dvla wanting to prevent loss of road taxes so making it impossible to gain zero £ tax status on conversion. At least there appears a pathway for get your conversion legally on the road though albeit through some shonky gov built website

eUKenGB wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:14 pm

Alibro wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:00 pm …it's ridiculous that we have to have our electric cars registered as petrol or diesel.
It kind smacks of incompetence by the folk who created the current regulations since electric car conversions were being done back then too.

Not actually a problem with the regs. They are abundantly clear that "electrically propelled vehicles are exempt". It is the dunderheads at DVLA who refuse to accept that they cannot charge VED and make up their own alternative and INCORRECT interpretation of those regs. Let's apportion blame where blame is due and that's DVLA.

Apparently the decree that no car built after 2001 may have their tax bracket changed usurps the suggestion that all electric cars are zero tax.

Alibro wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:32 pm

eUKenGB wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:14 pm

Alibro wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:00 pm …it's ridiculous that we have to have our electric cars registered as petrol or diesel.
It kind smacks of incompetence by the folk who created the current regulations since electric car conversions were being done back then too.

Not actually a problem with the regs. They are abundantly clear that "electrically propelled vehicles are exempt". It is the dunderheads at DVLA who refuse to accept that they cannot charge VED and make up their own alternative and INCORRECT interpretation of those regs. Let's apportion blame where blame is due and that's DVLA.

Apparently the decree that no car built after 2001 may have their tax bracket changed usurps the suggestion that all electric cars are zero tax.

That is how DVLA are interpreting it, but they are wrong. The exception for 'exempt vehicles' overrides all else. That is why it is worded as it is, so that those exceptions are applied over and above any other stipulation in the regs. Otherwise it would be "anything left over not covered by anything else" and that is NOT how it is worded. It's quite clear in the main provisions of the regs that there are 'exempt vehicles' and this means, exempt from any other requirements that might be stated elsewhere in the regs.

What DVLA are doing is not only factually incorrect, it is morally wrong. The government has made it very clear it wants all cars to be electric to help the environment. DVLA are actively preventing this. Any which way you look at it, they are utterly and completely wrong on this.

I'm not entirely sure why DVLA are being so difficult about this. Sure it means more VED revenue, but the government gets that. Is there actually any financial advantage to DVLA from higher VED revenues? I have no idea how DVLA is funded. Probably worth a bit of research on that.

Hello,

we got three letters from the DVLA today cementing their decision:

- they reverted their decision on our '02 vehicle and are asking for £260 tax for the years where they "erroneously" changed it to be electric and tax free
- they reverted their decision on our '07 vehicle with the same implications
- they are refusing to change the tax class on our '12 vehicle with reference to the two above

I may be able to get a solicitor at a reduced rate to look at this/make some noise with contacts that we have.

Shall we do something together?

We can pledge £1,000 initially if you guys are willing to join us, can everybody who is interested in making a case please let me know:

1) license plate of vehicle you converted
2) dates of conversion, DVLA paperwork received
3) tax rate, how much you have already paid that you shouldn't have
4) how much you can contribute for a solicitor

either via PM or to janosch@clipper.cab

I know that Jamie has already engaged his local MP, but there will be strength in numbers, the more people we get together the higher our chances of driving this change.

Good luck Janosh. Once my car is roadworthy, I'll go through the process with DVLA etc so I can generate the paper trail. In the meantime I'd be glad to contribute to a solicitor up to £500.

is it worth setting up a https://www.crowdjustice.com/ to try get wider support? Drawback is 3% fee. Maybe the GoodLawProject

The MPs that I know have been contacted by their constituent with the same issue.
John Healey MP, Me
Afzal Kahn MP, Tom (bobby_come_lately)
Connor Burns MP, Stuart (YouTube, VW Transporter)

RACHEL MACLEAN, PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT has also responded and affirmed the position.

I'll pledge £500 too.

YK53RZG, I've got quite a few letters from the DVLA, tried 3 times to get it changed, wrote to various departments etc.
11 August 2022 date of first electric MOT
8 months of tax paid so far ~£23 per month

I don't understand why they are being so difficult about this. Irrespective of the fact they are wrong in how they currently interpret the regs, why are they so determined to not even re-consider their position?

It is the stated aim of the government to reduce the use of fossil fuels and increase the use of electric power (and have used financial incentives to encourage that), yet this position taken by DVLA (and parroted by RACHEL MACLEAN, PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT it would appear) is in complete opposition to that. Why? At the very least any idiot can see there is room for a different interpretation of the regs, yet they simply will not even consider that.

Are we missing something here? What is the hidden agenda that prevents them from changing their position on this?

Not sure, but the fact of the matter is that it seems they'll not change unless forced to. Writing to MP's isn't working, writing to the DVLA isn't working.

Has a solicitor said there's a potential case here?

I had one look at the regs and his opinion was there's no question, DVLA are NOT interpreting them correctly.

Did they say what the next steps would be to force them to change and how much that might cost?

Bigpie wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:36 pm Did they say what the next steps would be to force them to change and how much that might cost?

No, not at that time. I just wanted to be sure I was not mistaken in my belief that DVLA were getting it wrong.

I think there's 2 ways to proceed. Keep badgering the relevant parties, i.e. DVLA, MPs etc and if that fails, challenge it in court. What we need is someone to take on the case just because it's the right thing to do, rather than to charge lots of money for doing it. Those of us with a vested interest in this are unlikely to have particularly deep pockets.

I have yet to hear any actual counter argument to the point that the regs clearly state electric cars (pre 2017) are exempt, no exceptions. The responses are always just "no, we're not going to change". It's as if they don't want to have to go through the logic (or lack of) of their position as they realise they are wrong, but are determined to carry on regardless. Which brings me back to my previous question of why?

I wonder if legal aid could be obtained for this?

I'll throw in a couple hundred quid as well. Mine isn't done yet but will be in the position for MOT and sorting out paperwork in the next couple months I hope.

Ok thanks guys, it looks like we have some resources for this in the community. I emailed a few transport solicitors our evidence and am awaiting quotes.

If I get a positive response and an agreeable quote I will set up a conference call with everyone who is pledging, I compile an evidence folder with all our V5s, and then we will see where that gets us.

It might be that the DVLA is the total authority on this and has the final word, in which case we would be out of luck until politics gives them grief to update their procedures. Lets see.

The DVLA are not the final authority on this. They probably think they are, but this is British law and the final authority on that is and has always been the courts. It is THEY who interpret the law and even then it can be appealed. But the DVLA? Nah. They're just an organisation set up to handle the bureaucracy of vehicle registration and road tax etc. They must do what the law states, but they've never been challenged like this.

So no, DVLA are not the arbiters of the law.

I am under the impression (though I maybe wrong) that if this were to go to a full judicial review, the loser may be on the hook for the legal fees of both parties. That is great if we win, but potentially dangerous if we don't. I've yet to find anyone who supports the DVLA's position (or even a single word from the DVLA themselves justifying that position), but there's always the nagging feeling in my mind that they've had legal advice and know something we don't.

I'd contribute my share towards an initial consultation with a solicitor who can spend a couple of hours digging into this and assess the worthiness of the case, as well as recommend the best legal process to proceed with.

As eUKenGB says, the DVLA aren't an authority here, they're simply administrators. If the law says no tax is due, then no tax is due, no matter what the DVLA says. Since there's no case law, everyone has to just interpret the legislation as best they can.

Unfortunately I am of the opinion that the game is rigged.
Even if you win, they (DVLA) will probably pressure government to change the rules (as government officials they have more influence than we do...they will call us tax dodgers to get opinion on thair side) e.g. they will just align the rules so that everyone will pay a flat rate tax regardless of fuel (like 2017+ cars) or pull forward done sort of charge per mile thing. Just remember there are two certainties in life death and taxes, you can try and dodge it but eventually they will get you .

You’re definitely right in the long term, but short-medium term, while a separate tax rate exists for aftermarket LPG conversions, I think their defence to legal challenge is very weak.

Never attribute to malice, what you can attribute to incompetance.

The DVLA don't get to keep the tax.

There is no check on keeper details, you can submit any old nonsense and that's what will find its way into the system. In any sensible system, you would have to provide some proof of identity, so that the person legally responsible for a vehicle is actually known.

A while after the paper tax disc was abolished, someone did a FOI request. Tax evasion went up by something like 300%.

SciroccoEV wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:55 am Never attribute to malice, what you can attribute to incompetance.

First time recording ownership (registered keeper) of the mazda someone in DVLA thought it would be funny to put it as Mrs Robert Stevens !!! There solution to fix it was to castrate me by removing the (Mrs) title so it's just my name.

I expect there is a big push to show that they are reducing tax avoidance and someone realised there was a contradiction in the law they could use to get some easy numbers.

Although I would add that zero rate car tax is the wrong reason to convert a car, generally the savings on electric over petrol should be enough that the cost of the car tax will get lost in the noise. (I understand that yes you shouldn't have to pay it for an ev, but winning against the giant will always be expensive and they know that).

Although the whole car tax thing in a farse, in a modern world, just add a few pence to a litre of fuel (once the price drops) and then it saves everyone a load of hassle regardless of fuel.

I suspect the zero rate tax for ev's will end in a year or two (maybe five) anyway.
As they become more common the government will need to shake up the tax laws for all cars.
I guess the big issue here will be the more and more extreme tax for older gas guzzlers which our cars will probably still be classed as.

I've been campaigning for many years to instead put car tax on fuel. Well, in my head anyway. It was just the perfect and FAIR way to collect tax proportional to usage of the roads etc. But with the change away from the ICE, it's no longer worth thinking about. The alternative that I read somewhere (may have mentioned it before) is to instead put the tax on tyres. Think about it. Not as stupid as it sounds. In fact, not stupid at all.

My interest in this whole Tax Classification of converted cars issue is not just at a personal financial level. I realise that for many it would not and probably should not affect their decision to perform a conversion, but for me it's bigger than that.

Yes I have plans for several conversion projects that fall into this category (2001-2017) and the financial savings would be worthwhile, BUT of more importance is that future road tax charging should be fair. As I said, for many years I've been an advocate of mileage based charging. Not only does that suit me as I don't commute so annual mileage is relatively low and with multiple vehicles it has always irked me that tax is charged on all vehicles even when only one can be used at a time (the rest securely parked off the road, on my own property). So one is forced to play swap the insurance/tax game and only be able to use a small selection at any one time.

Although my current vehicles are individually not in the 'high tax' bracket, I did for a while have a Mercedes SL500 which with its large V8 was approx £600 pa. just for road tax. All for a mere approx. 1K miles in a year. Whereas anyone with a low emissions ICE vehicle could drive e.g. 100K mile in a year at zero cost. Not only would they create far more pollution in that time, but they would make use of and cause wear and tear of the roads at a rate 100x my use of the SL. For which I had to pay £600 and they, nothing, £ZERO.

Then in 2017 another nonsense scheme was introduced which means that a post 2017 SL, after 5 years would only pay £150 pa. Meanwhile, the pre 2017 SL (basically the same car) would be stuck with the original £600. This is simply utter madness. A scheme thought up by complete idiots and that doesn't even address what they claim they're trying to address.

Fortunately, with the advent of EVs, they HAVE to come up with a scheme based on mileage, which is THE ONLY fair way to tax road usage. However we are now faced with this current nonsense that DVLA refuse (although ultimately not their call) to re-classify converted cars 2001-2017. So they will be stuck with the old VED scheme that has already angered me to the point of changing cars to avoid the nonsense. So I will NOT convert a car to then be illegally forced to pay the old ICE VED rate. It's a matter of principle. The financial savings mount up for each such converted car, but the main issue is that DVLA are WRONG. Logically, legally and morally and this is unacceptable. If the powers that be decide DVLA's flawed interpretation is correct (it is NOT and I will never accept that it is), then the law needs to change. It is utter nonsense to commit the UK to such massive changes to its entire infrastructure in order to deal with the switch to EV, outlawing ICE from 2030, all in the name of 'saving the planet', while refusing to allow a car converted from ICE to EV to be taxed as an EV.

That's the final point. This is not about obtaining 'free car tax'. It is about a car converted to EV being then taxed as an EV (at whatever rate that may be), because that is the right and just way to apply VED/road tax. Anything else is wrong and unacceptable.