Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

For those who don't want to delve into the wording of the actual regulations in question. Here is a précis of the regs. as they affect us:-

All cars first regd. up to 2001 shall be taxed at rate X, and those after 2001 shall be taxed at rate Y.
EXCEPT electric cars first regd. before 2017 which are EXEMPT.

DVLA are interpreting that as meaning cars first regd. between 2001 and 2017 and converted to electric should be taxed at rate Y.

I hope that clarifies what DVLA are doing.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Alibro »

eUKenGB wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:02 am I've been campaigning for many years to instead put car tax on fuel. Well, in my head anyway. It was just the perfect and FAIR way to collect tax proportional to usage of the roads etc. But with the change away from the ICE, it's no longer worth thinking about. The alternative that I read somewhere (may have mentioned it before) is to instead put the tax on tyres. Think about it. Not as stupid as it sounds. In fact, not stupid at all.

My interest in this whole Tax Classification of converted cars issue is not just at a personal financial level. I realise that for many it would not and probably should not affect their decision to perform a conversion, but for me it's bigger than that.

Yes I have plans for several conversion projects that fall into this category (2001-2017) and the financial savings would be worthwhile, BUT of more importance is that future road tax charging should be fair. As I said, for many years I've been an advocate of mileage based charging. Not only does that suit me as I don't commute so annual mileage is relatively low and with multiple vehicles it has always irked me that tax is charged on all vehicles even when only one can be used at a time (the rest securely parked off the road, on my own property). So one is forced to play swap the insurance/tax game and only be able to use a small selection at any one time.

Although my current vehicles are individually not in the 'high tax' bracket, I did for a while have a Mercedes SL500 which with its large V8 was approx £600 pa. just for road tax. All for a mere approx. 1K miles in a year. Whereas anyone with a low emissions ICE vehicle could drive e.g. 100K mile in a year at zero cost. Not only would they create far more pollution in that time, but they would make use of and cause wear and tear of the roads at a rate 100x my use of the SL. For which I had to pay £600 and they, nothing, £ZERO.

Then in 2017 another nonsense scheme was introduced which means that a post 2017 SL, after 5 years would only pay £150 pa. Meanwhile, the pre 2017 SL (basically the same car) would be stuck with the original £600. This is simply utter madness. A scheme thought up by complete idiots and that doesn't even address what they claim they're trying to address.

Fortunately, with the advent of EVs, they HAVE to come up with a scheme based on mileage, which is THE ONLY fair way to tax road usage. However we are now faced with this current nonsense that DVLA refuse (although ultimately not their call) to re-classify converted cars 2001-2017. So they will be stuck with the old VED scheme that has already angered me to the point of changing cars to avoid the nonsense. So I will NOT convert a car to then be illegally forced to pay the old ICE VED rate. It's a matter of principle. The financial savings mount up for each such converted car, but the main issue is that DVLA are WRONG. Logically, legally and morally and this is unacceptable. If the powers that be decide DVLA's flawed interpretation is correct (it is NOT and I will never accept that it is), then the law needs to change. It is utter nonsense to commit the UK to such massive changes to its entire infrastructure in order to deal with the switch to EV, outlawing ICE from 2030, all in the name of 'saving the planet', while refusing to allow a car converted from ICE to EV to be taxed as an EV.

That's the final point. This is not about obtaining 'free car tax'. It is about a car converted to EV being then taxed as an EV (at whatever rate that may be), because that is the right and just way to apply VED/road tax. Anything else is wrong and unacceptable.
Although I agree with every word I guess the issue here would be the tyre tax. Every car in the country would be driving on the canvas before they would be replaced and you can guarantee there would be a black market in dodgy dangerous tyres.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

Screenshot 2022-03-17 at 10.49.50 am.png
Got Fully Charged interested :D

Can people send their info to production@fullycharged.show regarding this issue.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Bigpie wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:51 am Screenshot 2022-03-17 at 10.49.50 am.png
Got Fully Charged interested :D

Can people send their info to production@fullycharged.show regarding this issue.
I spoke to Robert about a year ago and although sounding interested at the time, when I actually sent him the details, got no reply until I repeatedly chased it and then a reply from someone else that they were too busy to do anything about it, but we had their moral support.

Not the outcome I was hoping for.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

It occurs to me that we need to establish what was the INTENT of those who introduced those regulations. It seems clear to me that as written, their intention was to include all electrically propelled cars as 'Exempt vehicles'. However it is possible that their intention was actually not that and they badly worded the regs. In which case I suspect we haven't got a chance of getting things changed.

However, if their INTENT was to exempt all electric cars, then however DVLA may wish to interpret it now, they haven't got a leg to stand on if challenged in court.

So who wrote those regs? I don't mean the underling who typed the words, but who was instrumental in creating those regs and what was their purpose and intent?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

eUKenGB wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:01 pm So who wrote those regs? I don't mean the underling who typed the words, but who was instrumental in creating those regs and what was their purpose and intent?
I may be wrong, but I suspect the person who wrote this is long gone. I believe this exemption dates back to the very early days of car tax, and was intended for very low powered electric vehicles, like milk floats, and has just been copy-pasted ever since, providing a convenient tax break for modern green vehicles.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by pickmeup »

I've posted up on LinkedIN about the troubles that some individuals and companies are having, I've had suggestions of speaking to OZEV but I don't think that will get very far. However some of my old colleagues from Caterham have suggest speak to this guy? Ken Evans

http://automotivecertificationltd.com/index.php
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by SuperV8 »

eUKenGB wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:01 pm It occurs to me that we need to establish what was the INTENT of those who introduced those regulations. It seems clear to me that as written, their intention was to include all electrically propelled cars as 'Exempt vehicles'. However it is possible that their intention was actually not that and they badly worded the regs. In which case I suspect we haven't got a chance of getting things changed.

However, if their INTENT was to exempt all electric cars, then however DVLA may wish to interpret it now, they haven't got a leg to stand on if challenged in court.

So who wrote those regs? I don't mean the underling who typed the words, but who was instrumental in creating those regs and what was their purpose and intent?


Interesting reading on the history and intent of VED:
Quotes below taken from here:
https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... N01482.pdf
Summary
This briefing paper explains the policies of successive governments towards the setting
and design of vehicle excise duty (VED) for cars and other vehicles. It gives information as
to the exemptions from payment and how the Government enforces its collection. It also
describes the most recent change to VED: those introduced for new vehicles from April
2017 and those affecting diesel vehicles from 2018.
Motoring taxation is made up of two elements: vehicle excise duty (VED) – a tax on
ownership; and fuel duty – a tax on use. Although historically the road fund tax was
considered a hypothecated tax to pay for the building and maintenance of the road
network, this has not been so since 1937 and it is now a general revenue raising tax.
Changes to the rates and coverage of the duty are made in the annual Finance Acts.
The Labour Government introduced a new system of VED, based primarily on carbon
dioxide emissions, for cars registered on and after 1 March 2001. This ‘graduated’ scheme
was extended in May 2009 and a new ‘first year rate’ was introduced.
The Coalition Government introduced a road user levy for vehicles weighing more than 12
tonnes from 1 April 2014 accompanied by a VED rebate, and from 1 October 2014 it
abolished the paper tax disc, with minor knock-on changes for the VED rules.
In the first Budget of the Conservative Government in July 2015 the Chancellor
announced a further reform of VED from April 2017, which effectively abolished the
graduated system for new cars registered after that date. From the 2020-21 financial year
income from VED in England will be hypothecated to a new road fund, to contribute
towards the costs of the Strategic Road Network (SRN). In the 2017 Autumn Budget the
Chancellor announced new VED rates for the most polluting diesel cars, to take effect in
2018.
Over the years, there has been pressure from various organisations for
governments to be more proactive and to use VED as a means of
encouraging, or more recently ‘nudging’ certain behaviour, such as the
use of more environmentally friendly vehicles. The two most frequently
suggested changes have been the abolition of VED and its replacement
by an increased fuel duty, and the introduction of a graduated duty. The
Labour Government introduced a graduated rate by linking VED with
carbon dioxide emissions in 2001.
5. Exemptions
Section 5 and Schedule 2 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act
1994, as amended, exempt certain vehicles or certain uses from VED.
Vehicles exempted from duty include:
• Certain vehicles constructed at any time before 1 January 1973;
• Trams;
• Electrically-assisted pedal cycles;
• Vehicles not for carriage (i.e. vehicles which are not constructed or
adapted for use, or used, for the carriage of a driver or
passenger);
• Vehicles being used for police purposes;
• Fire engines and vehicles which are kept by a fire and rescue
authority when they are being used or kept on a road for the
purposes of the authority's functions;
• Ambulances and health service vehicles;
• Mine rescue vehicles (including vehicles used for the purpose of
conveying or drawing emergency winding-gear at a mine);
• Lifeboat vehicles;
• Vehicles for disabled people104 (including cycles with an
attachment for propulsion by mechanical power);
• Vehicles used between different parts of land (for purposes
related to agriculture, horticulture or forestry);
• Tractors and light agricultural vehicles (i.e. vehicles that have a
revenue weight not exceeding 1,000 kg);
• Agricultural engines;
• Mowing machines;
• Steam powered vehicles;
Electrically propelled vehicles;
• Snow ploughs;
• Gritters;
• Vehicles being driven to or from a testing centre for
assessment/examination;
• Vehicles for export; and
• Light passenger vehicles with low CO2 emissions (i.e. that the
emissions figure for the vehicle does not exceed 100 g/km).
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

An interesting find, but is slightly incorrect in its description of exemptions, which include Electrically Propelled Vehicles, except cars regd. after March 2017. So those later cars are NOT 'exempt vehicles' and have their own provision for VED laid out in Schedule 1. They still don't pay VED, but it is handled by a different section of the regs. I'm sure the above just omitted it for simplicity rather than in error.

However, as can clearly be seen, the exemption otherwise covers all cars prior to 2017, although gives no further details regarding their actual intent.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

eUKenGB wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:53 pm after March 2017.
What makes you believe that cars registered after 2017 aren't covered by the exemption? I was under the impression that it includes all vehicles unless they're registered after 2017 *and* have a list price of more than £40,000. Have I missed something?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

catphish wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:14 pm
eUKenGB wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:53 pm after March 2017.
What makes you believe that cars registered after 2017 aren't covered by the exemption? I was under the impression that it includes all vehicles unless they're registered after 2017 *and* have a list price of more than £40,000. Have I missed something?
No, you're right, I was simplifying it. My point was that there is not a blanket exemption for electrically propelled vehicles as was stated in those parliamentary notes. It excludes some later cars that are covered under Schedule 1 (i.e. where post 2001 cars' VED is stated). So those specified later cars are covered elsewhere and hence excluded from the exemption.

Anyway I doubt conversion of post 2017 cars is an issue for anyone yet and won't be for some years to come.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Peter »

Would be interesting to see if DVLA allowed a reduction or zero rated the VED if someone fitted a modern low CO2 emission engine to a gas guzzler ? That might prove a case possibly ?
Could it be DVLA are basing their decisions on the first registration of the vehicle after manufacture ?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Alibro »

Peter wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:12 pm Would be interesting to see if DVLA allowed a reduction or zero rated the VED if someone fitted a modern low CO2 emission engine to a gas guzzler ? That might prove a case possibly ?
Could it be DVLA are basing their decisions on the first registration of the vehicle after manufacture ?
No but I believe it works the other way round. If you fit a V8 to a small car they will very quickly raise the tax rate for the car.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

Peter wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:12 pm Would be interesting to see if DVLA allowed a reduction or zero rated the VED if someone fitted a modern low CO2 emission engine to a gas guzzler ? That might prove a case possibly ?
Could it be DVLA are basing their decisions on the first registration of the vehicle after manufacture ?
That's a definite no. The legislation very clearly states that if a car has a CO2 emissions figure recorded at first registration, this figure is NOT affected by subsequent modifications. You can install a V12 or the world's most efficient engine, and the tax will not change. This is in fact the very thing that the DVLA believe prevents an EV conversion from being zero rated for tax.

The relevant legislation (which refers to cars with a CO2 emissions figure):
If a vehicle is on first registration, under this Act or under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, a vehicle to which this Part of this Schedule applies—
(a)its status as such a vehicle, and
(b)the applicable CO2 emissions figure,
are not affected by any subsequent modification of the vehicle.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

As catphish says. That is THE argument they're using to deny us the re-classification when converted to EV.

Since an ICE powered car is NOT an 'exempt vehicle', it IS then covered by Schedule 1 and hence cannot have its original emissions figure changed. A restriction I completely understand as that would open the door to anyone claiming their car now produced fewer emissions and they should pay less VED. That would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to implement. However, it was clearly never meant to prevent a car being converted to electric propulsion, hence becoming an 'exempt vehicle' and thereby NOT subject to Schedule 1 at all and that whole "cannot change emissions" statement is rendered irrelevant.

However they are still wrong, due to the exemption. Fundamental logic dictates that a positive and a negative results in a negative. DVLA are distorting/misunderstanding that to mean such a combination results in a positive and that is NEVER true.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by SuperV8 »

catphish wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:39 am
Peter wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:12 pm Would be interesting to see if DVLA allowed a reduction or zero rated the VED if someone fitted a modern low CO2 emission engine to a gas guzzler ? That might prove a case possibly ?
Could it be DVLA are basing their decisions on the first registration of the vehicle after manufacture ?
That's a definite no. The legislation very clearly states that if a car has a CO2 emissions figure recorded at first registration, this figure is NOT affected by subsequent modifications. You can install a V12 or the world's most efficient engine, and the tax will not change. This is in fact the very thing that the DVLA believe prevents an EV conversion from being zero rated for tax.

The relevant legislation (which refers to cars with a CO2 emissions figure):
If a vehicle is on first registration, under this Act or under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, a vehicle to which this Part of this Schedule applies—
(a)its status as such a vehicle, and
(b)the applicable CO2 emissions figure,
are not affected by any subsequent modification of the vehicle.
Here is a link for the actual - Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents

I can't see anywhere which says:
"If a vehicle is on first registration, under this Act or under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, a vehicle to which this Part of this Schedule applies—
(a)its status as such a vehicle, and
(b)the applicable CO2 emissions figure,
are not affected by any subsequent modification of the vehicle. "
Can you post an exact quote & location of the section the DVLA are using to suggest VED can't change?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by catphish »

SuperV8 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:26 am Here is a link for the actual - Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents

Can you post an exact quote & location of the section the DVLA are using to suggest VED can't change?
The quote is exact. It's from Schedule 1, Part 1A (5).
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

SuperV8 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:26 am Can you post an exact quote & location of the section the DVLA are using to suggest VED can't change?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... /1/part/IA
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by pickmeup »

We need to build an association like they do in france, it would also be good if they gave the grants in the UK like they do in france too. Up to 5K euro if you convert your car to electric.

https://association-aire.org/index.php/l-association/

https://www.service-public.fr/particuli ... its/F35285
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

FOI request (FOIR9712):
"I would like to know how many vehicles you have registered where by the fuel type and tax class has been changed where the original registration date is 2001 onwards where the vehicle is M1 type approved"
Answer:
"20,466 M1 type vehicles registered since January 1st 2001 have been recorded as having a fuel type and tax class change."

Seems hard to maintain that it's not possible to update the fuel type and tax class.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Bigpie wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:20 am FOI request (FOIR9712):
"I would like to know how many vehicles you have registered where by the fuel type and tax class has been changed where the original registration date is 2001 onwards where the vehicle is M1 type approved"
Answer:
"20,466 M1 type vehicles registered since January 1st 2001 have been recorded as having a fuel type and tax class change."

Seems hard to maintain that it's not possible to update the fuel type and tax class.
Yes, some have slipped through and I have previously made the point about their inconsistency. However I have discussed this with them directly and they have repeatedly stated categorically that they will not change the tax class, despite as we know having done so in some instances.

They have recently contacted keepers of at least some (maybe all) of those that slipped through the net and not only stated they made a mistake and will be reverting them to the original tax class, but also demanding payment of all the back tax they haven't paid, which it has to be said, is purely due to their 'mistake'. I believe that they have since dropped the demand for the back tax, but the fact they even thought it reasonable to ask in the first place says a lot about their arrogance.

So taking an overview of the situation, it is clear that the DVLA are indeed doing their very best to NOT allow any converted cars of that age to be re-classified.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

janosch wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:45 pm Ok thanks guys, it looks like we have some resources for this in the community. I emailed a few transport solicitors our evidence and am awaiting quotes.

If I get a positive response and an agreeable quote I will set up a conference call with everyone who is pledging, I compile an evidence folder with all our V5s, and then we will see where that gets us.

It might be that the DVLA is the total authority on this and has the final word, in which case we would be out of luck until politics gives them grief to update their procedures. Lets see.
Did anything come of this? I've created a facebook group to try and coordinate efforts https://www.facebook.com/groups/729970578130987
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

I have contacted my MP about this and although not a rapid response, once he actually read what I stated and also the regs in question, he completely agrees with me and has written to the Chancellor about it. Have to see what comes of that, but sounds promising. I'm also trying to contact anyone with any sort of public profile and who might be sympathetic. So far, none have replied.

Just have to keep pushing.

BTW, with regard to the last point of the quote above, the DVLA are NOT the final word on this. The regulations are the written law and it is the duty of the courts to interpret them if there's any doubt. The DVLA simply have to follow the law, but are doing it wrong. We need their 'boss' to see the error of their ways and tell them to do it right. Trouble is those in government who actually have the power to enforce this are too dumb to be able to correctly follow the logic of the regs.

Here again is the basic logic of the regs:-

If we:-

Let 'X' = the overly complex rules determining applicable rate of VED, based on age, capacity, emissions and cost of the car.

then, their intrinsic and fundamental logic can be distilled into these two lines:-

• All cars shall be taxed at the rate determined by X
• EXCEPT electrically propelled vehicles which are EXEMPT

This is quite clear in what it states, that electric cars are EXEMPT. This means that ANYTHING in 'X' (e.g. that M1 vehicles cannot have their emissions changed) is IRRELEVANT. There is NO need to even look at 'X' for electric cars. The current regulations clearly state that electric vehicles are EXEMPT from anything in 'X' as it is clear that there is an OVERRIDING exception for 'exempt vehicles' and for those, there is no need to consider X at all. Indeed it would be incorrect to do so as that would violate the exemptions laid out in Schedule 2 of the regulations. In the case of converted cars of this age however, DVLA are insistent that they have to follow and continue charging VED at rate determined by 'X'. This is clearly incorrect. So DVLA's actions are UNLAWFUL.

By way of analogy, consider the following:-

• All drivers can drive on motorways
• Except learner drivers

It is abundantly clear from the above that despite what is implied in the first statement, learners drivers can NOT drive on motorways. However, in this scenario, DVLA would be claiming that learners can indeed drive on motorways, due to the first statement. They would be obviously wrong in this case, just as they are wrong in refusing to re-classify converted cars to electric and charge VED accordingly.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

The Telegraph are covering the issue over the Jubilee weekend. I've had them round taking photos etc.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Boxster EV »

Bigpie wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:59 am The Telegraph are covering the issue over the Jubilee weekend. I've had them round taking photos etc.
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Fair play to you mate for persisting. 👍
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