Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

New Electric Ireland wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:45 am James Brown is UK based and is very actively involved with a group of people who've been on our conversion course. They're all facing the same issues with DVLA…
Ah, it seems you are admitting here that it is indeed problematic trying to deal with the DVLA and it's not just a simple matter of following the rules as you have been claiming. Indeed, you have still not provided a link to these rules governing the conversion of a car to electric.

…and we've discussed strategies for influencing government policy…
Ok, that's good stuff. I think there is a desperate need to influence government policy. Well, help them formulate a policy as currently there is NO policy regarding the conversion of ICE cars to electric. Governments claim to want to save the planet and are pushing to change to electric power, but any attempt to convert an existing ICE car to electric (a far better way to avoid pollution than manufacturing a new EV) is met with obfuscation and obstruction and an apparent determination to put off anyone from attempting to do so. It is almost as if DVLA see Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax) as their own source of revenue and worry that more EVs might mean less in the pot for them. Perish the thought.

Talking of 'policy', when I first asked DVLA about conversion of 2001-2017 cars to electric and the Road Tax implications, they told me they would have to pass the question on to their 'Policy Unit'. The response then was that "they have no policy on this subject". :?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

New Electric Ireland wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:15 am Maybe you should try that before you cut out the boot of your next car?
So you and others you know have been able to perform all conversions without any mods to the chassis? No mods, whatsoever?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Greenbeast »

What i don't understand is why 'we' are here having this conversation whilst Electric Classic Cars, Zero-EV, London Electric Cars, amongst others are apparently churning out conversions. Is this really just an age of vehicle thing?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by johnfin »

Bear in mind the only issue is getting free road tax, there’s no issue just keeping the registration as it is and paying the existing rate. Arguably if you’re paying someone else to do your conversion, you’ve got enough money to afford the tax anyway. It’s not that much for pre-2006 and especially pre-2001 cars.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Greenbeast wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:22 pm What i don't understand is why 'we' are here having this conversation whilst Electric Classic Cars, Zero-EV, London Electric Cars, amongst others are apparently churning out conversions. Is this really just an age of vehicle thing?
Several reasons. First of all, anything is easier the second time, so once you've done one, the subsequent applications will get progressively easier. If this is your business, handling these applications will be simply repetition and of course, just business, so no emotional involvement in the outcome, or the time taken to get there.

Secondly, as a 'professional' company, the DVLA will accept your word and you can 'self certify' your own work with obvious potential advantages. As a private individual, you may be required to employ a professional company to inspect and verify your work and that adds hugely to the problem.

Thirdly, the age of the car is very relevant. For cars first registered from 2001 to 2017, DVLA currently say they will NOT change the Taxation Class. This is because they are actually misreading the regulations (apparently to their advantage), but for now, there's no way they will allow you to avoid VED. But this is something that needs to change. However, pre 2001 should be no problem, but they are being obstructive to private individuals.

Electric Classic Cars only seem to deal with 40+ year old cars that are (or can be) reclassified as HISTORIC which are exempt from VED and MOT, so not really worth bothering to try and change to Electric on regn. doc as it gains nothing.

Finally, DVLA are, at least for private individuals, totally inconsistent and you can be given different advice/instructions each time you call.

There is also the fact this sort of low-priority work currently is exactly that and they are far from speedy with the processing and due to the above difficulties of dealing with them, it exponentially increases the time it all takes. This however is not entirely their fault as COVID is making life difficult for all of us.

There needs to be a standardised procedure to cover the process of converting ANY car to electric, whatever the age. This should even be encouraged by the government. Only then can we really make this a simple process of 'following the rules'.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Greenbeast »

eUKenGB wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 pm

Secondly, as a 'professional' company, the DVLA will accept your word and you can 'self certify' your own work with obvious potential advantages. As a private individual, you may be required to employ a professional company to inspect and verify your work and that adds hugely to the problem.
This is a good point i hadn't thought of
Electric Classic Cars only seem to deal with 40+ year old cars that are (or can be) reclassified as HISTORIC which are exempt from VED and MOT, so not really worth bothering to try and change to Electric on regn. doc as it gains nothing.
'
yes i kinda thought about that after posting

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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by rstevens81 »

Now here is a bit of outside thinking.
What we actually need for a group of us here to set up a company with the sole pupose to certify or 'fit' in order to satisfy the DVLA?
I would think we would have enough qualifications between us to satisfy certifying that this is a electric motor, this big but of steel attached to the engine mounts stops the motor escaping!

The whole situation is quite obserd as if you read dvla's own wording:
'your existing engine is converted – the confirmation must be on headed paper from the garage that did the work'
'a new engine is fitted – provide the receipt as confirmation'

We are not converting the existing engine ists going bye bye so not applicable

A new engine (motor) is being fitted.

But DVLA being DVLA will be obstructive for reasons as previously stated.

Edit

Electric classic cars is on a bit of a thin line as the DVLA exemption holds if the vehicle hasn't been substantially modified, however DVLA probably don't care as it's already tax exempt.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

rstevens81 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:48 am Now here is a bit of outside thinking.
What we actually need for a group of us here to set up a company with the sole pupose to certify or 'fit' in order to satisfy the DVLA?
I would think we would have enough qualifications between us to satisfy certifying that this is a electric motor, this big but of steel attached to the engine mounts stops the motor escaping!

The whole situation is quite obserd as if you read dvla's own wording:
'your existing engine is converted – the confirmation must be on headed paper from the garage that did the work'
'a new engine is fitted – provide the receipt as confirmation'

We are not converting the existing engine ists going bye bye so not applicable

A new engine (motor) is being fitted.

But DVLA being DVLA will be obstructive for reasons as previously stated.
I like the idea of setting up a company just to certify our own conversions.

Electric classic cars is on a bit of a thin line as the DVLA exemption holds if the vehicle hasn't been substantially modified, however DVLA probably don't care as it's already tax exempt.
In my negotiations with DVLA I specifically asked about Electric cars becoming HISTORIC and/or HISTORIC cars being converted to Electric They said no problem either way. But, having obtained HISTORIC classification, I would suggest that then going for Electric is pointless and just adds to the aggravation, for no benefit.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Boxster EV »

I haven’t commented further here from the exchanges three weeks ago, or updated my project thread until I had something objective to share regarding the formal and bureaucratic side of the conversion process. I’m pleased to say that I do indeed have an update, but before sharing, I just wanted to comment on the earlier suggestions that my car would/should be classed as radically altered by the authorities.

Yes, I changed part of my boot floor (less than a quarter of the total surface area) to make way for a reinforced stainless steel battery box. Yes, I added in strengthening. Yes, I had a professional fabricator do the job, Yes, I have followed the DVSA’s rules when it comes to finishes of the build. Let’s be honest, every single car in the project section of this forum has had the chassis modified during a conversion. The odd hole drilled here or there or use of a grinder could still constitute a modification to the chassis if we’re to interpret ‘the rules’ in black and white terms. It therefore highlights that it is impossible to complete EV conversion without some form of chassis modification however minor that may be.

If you’re new to this thread, you can read my previous posts on the experiences with the DVLA.

They are here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=543#p6670

And here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=543&start=50#p17322

And here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=543&start=75#p21272


The update:

The inspector visited on 18th Jan. He was very professional and friendly and said that most of his work related to inspections of cars pre 1980 (presumably for applications to historic classification). He had no idea what he was to inspect, just had the reg, make and model - that was it! I asked him what would have flagged my car for inspection. He said it really does depend on whose desk it lands on at the DVLA. He also said that in all probability the DVLA are just checking that the car is what I say it is from the forms, letters and pictures previously provided.

Before he got started, I offered to give an overview of the Boxster of which he accepted. I spent 5 or so minutes walking him around the vehicle, explaining the technical elements of the conversion from charge port right through to drive train and batteries. I explained that a local professional fabricator had supported the build and done the motor mount system and battery box installation.

In total the inspector spent about 30 minutes going over the car. Surprisingly I was asked to remove the engine bay covers as it’s quite fiddly and time consuming on the Boxster. He took LOTS of pictures inside the engine bay and underneath the rear of the car. He also took pictures of the three VIN locations. He was using two separate devices presumably for backup purposes.

He advised that his report would be submitted to the DVLA on the same day and that it would take them about a week to come back to me. I asked whether he was working to the aforementioned points system and he said that he was. I asked if I have anything to worry about, he wasn’t overly specific but he did say the DVLA and if required DVSA, will judge each case on its merits if need be – and they’re looking to find botched and dangerous workmanship rather than stop folk performing professional bona fide work. Certainly not black and white, however it does suggest there’s room in ‘the system’ for a pragmatic approach by the authorities (instead of; chassis mods are prohibited, end of). He also said that IF the DVLA determine that they’d like the DVSA to complete an IVA, that doesn’t necessarily mean the car would be considered radically altered.

If you’ve come this far reading my story, you’ll have noticed that during interactions with the DVLA over the past year, they moved the goalposts several times. For example, when they wrote to me last March advising that the new V5 would be issued upon providing XY and Z, I was then told that actually XY and Z was insufficient and would be asked to jump through further hoops. Unbelievably the bureaucratic theme continued even after the inspection, and on the 27th January I received an email asking that I complete a V10 application for vehicle tax. They sent me a letter last March advising that I need to tax the car before proceeding with the application, so why are they now asking again?! Frustrating, but was this a light at the end of the tunnel?

The good news is that it was indeed a light and it formed the final part of my tortuous 12 months dealing with the DVLA. The new V5 has been issued and fuel type classified as electricity. Hurrah!

I would like to thank everyone for commenting in this thread particularly Ken for sharing his knowledge and moral support. :)

For those going through this in future, my only advice would be to keep a very close eye on the DVLA and their inconsistent processes. They clearly do not have a defined workflow for EV conversions and are therefore processing applications on an ad hoc basis. In addition, the SGS inspection is little more than what the local DVLA local office used to do. However, it’s notable that the inspector was very interested to photograph how the HV cables were clipped – every 100mm and using rubber lined stainless clips. I’ll update my project thread with what I used.

It would seem that as long as the DVLA and SGS inspection do not deem your build a basket case, you will not be asked to undergo an IVA or indeed go down the radically altered vehicle route.

Feel free to shout if you have any further questions. I’m off for a celebratory beer. :)
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by steveknox »

Congratulations and fair play on the perseverance. What an ordeal.

One Question: was your emission changed to 0 also, or is that not on the v5 of a pre-2001 car?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

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Congratulations!
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Boxster EV »

steveknox wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:41 pm Congratulations and fair play on the perseverance. What an ordeal.

One Question: was your emission changed to 0 also, or is that not on the v5 of a pre-2001 car?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Well done. I figured you'd get there in the end. It's just frustrating dealing with the DVLA and it can sometimes seem there's no end in sight.

I had 2 thoughts about the inspection process. One involves us getting together and forming our own company to certify completion of the conversion to suit the DVLA. However, possibly even more aggravation than using their current appointed third party.

Otherwise I was thinking about how this could best be done in the future for all concerned as it is in everyone's best interests to make this process as painless as possible. The Government cannot object to this as it is their stated aim to move everyone to EV. So here's what I thought made the most sense:-

DVLA handles the paperwork, but would not be involved in the technical details. All that would be required is a current MOT, dated from AFTER completion of the work, i.e. with official certification that propulsion is now electric. Who best to inspect and verify the road-worthiness of a car than those specifically appointed to do that on a regular basis. If necessary they could make a simple change to the MOT requirements. Doesn't need to add to the time or cost of the actual test. Instead of faffing about testing the emissions, they just verify that the powertrain is indeed electric. All current chassis checks would still be conducted. If an MOT cannot identify dangerous mods to the chassis, then it's not very thorough is it.

So no special appointments required for any third party inspection. Just arrange an MOT as we already have to do annually anyway and MOT test stations are perfectly suited to this task, with ramps etc. No local inspection would have that facility. Changing the MOT/VOSA certificate to include an 'Electric' check box would be exceedingly simple as it's just a printed form. This requires the minimum of changes to current processes and fulfils all requirements I think.

Even for a HISTORIC vehicle, if that was being converted and required 'Electric' status, then an MOT would be required. Just that once and then as HISTORIC it can revert to not being required.

I just think this would be the simplest way for all concerned. Convert the car. When finished, arrange the MOT to suit yourself. Then apply to DVLA for the change in Taxation Class. They check the VOSA database (as they do now to check for current MOT), apply the change and produce the new V5C.

Could it be any simpler?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by rstevens81 »

Congratulations a win well deserved!
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Domt177 »

Similar story with my E46, looking at cutting out the rear wheel and widening it to the width of the car so i can fit some battery modules there.

Also how has your insurance been affected?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

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rstevens81 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:32 pm Congratulations a win well deserved!

Just wondering now that you have gone through all of the pain I was wondering if I could ask some advice/opinion in regards to my project (mx5)

I want to remove the fuel tank obviously, I am considering cutting out the fuel tank metalwork (drill out spot welds so could technically be reversed), then adding boot floor.

Some pics courtesy of Google as I haven't actually started cutting yet!

Fuel tank:
Tank pt1.jpg

Fuel tank removed (courtesy of DIY electric car by a kiwi conversation, I'm intending to plate this over then place the batteries on top)
Tank pt4.jpg

My question is if you in my shoes knowing what you know now, would you go through all of that effort or just live with a tiney (er) boot.
Not wanting to put a damper on your enthusiasm and no offence intended, but please post this somewhere else. By which I mean please don't hijack this thread with completely off topic, unrelated questions and pics.

Nothing wrong with the questions, but they need to be in their own thread and not this one which is specifically about the bureaucratic process of registering a conversion with the appropriate authorities (DVLA in this case).

Could the mods move the above post to its own thread?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Boxster EV »

Good initiative from the DVLA to add a green EV logo to GB plates.

Helpful for emergency services to identify converted cars too.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Ev8 »

Well DVLA have had my application since the end of January I have chased them every 2 weeks since March and today I final got this useful letter! The car was mot’d taxed and insured in January I sent them documented build, v5c, application to change tax class etc etc, they haven’t sent me my v5c back, so will have to chase them back at least about that but I don’t know if I can get any further with them.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by johnfin »

Sorry that’s not good news. I did think now though that it was fairly widely accepted that changing 2001-17 cars was not going to be allowed?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Ev8 »

Yeah given that I know of a 2003 RX8 that was converted and re registered successfully some years ago and the inconsistency of the DVLA I thought it was worth a go! Never mind
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Bigpie »

Do you have the reg number of the converted RX8? Might be worth point it out to them?
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by steveknox »

That's disappointing news for my rx-8 conversion..I'll be applying for a change soon and will keep you guys up to date on that.

@ev8 Would you mind if I tweeted this picture (with your details blanked out?) I think the best way to make this process easier is to highlight it in public as much as possible. I'd recommend everyone who has even the smallest social media presence to highlight this.

Interestingly, the "fuel type" on your MOT history says 'electric'. Funny how it can be changed in some places but not others..
Sorry if that's overstepping your privacy, but i was interested to see what it would say.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by eUKenGB »

Ev8 wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:15 pm Well DVLA have had my application since the end of January I have chased them every 2 weeks since March and today I final got this useful letter! The car was mot’d taxed and insured in January I sent them documented build, v5c, application to change tax class etc etc, they haven’t sent me my v5c back, so will have to chase them back at least about that but I don’t know if I can get any further with them.
They are WRONG about this. The regs clearly state that electric vehicles are exempt, with no reference to date of original registration. It is only when you look past this that the issue of not being able to change the emissions (after 2001) becomes apparent. But if one is correctly interpreting the regs, there is no need to look beyond the main provisions which unequivocally state EVs are exempt.

It is quite clear from the regulations that taxation class can be changed, but DVLA choose to misinterpret the regs and will not budge on this. There needs to be some form of action to settle this correctly, once and for all.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by zippy500 »

....so what happens now, can this car be driven legally on the road.
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Re: Registering and changing tax class of an EV conversion in the UK

Post by Ev8 »

As far as I am aware yes, but I have to keep paying road tax, it’s insured and mot’d as being electric
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