1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

rikohm wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:55 pm2 - As far as I can tell it's implemented in Johannes releases..
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=382
Ahh.

Well that link just leads to another link, but that link, is: https://github.com/jsphuebner/stm32-sin ... ag/v4.64.R

Which is an undescribed directory with a half-dozen files.

With a bit of reading, it looks like Johannes has written two versions of the control software. One is a sine-wave based for asynchronous motors (what my ACIM forklift motor is), and a more complicated FOC (Field Oriented Control) for synchronous motors because the simpler sine-wave approach didn't really work out well for synchronous motors.

The instructions that Arber linked earlier suggest that you want to push a .hex file to the Blue Pill, so I presume I'm using the stm32_sine.hex file to do that?

Slowly inching forward.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by johu »

This is a very interesting thread as it shows many of the implications us developers make. Like the software topic:
  1. Everyone knows that the hex file is used for JTAG/SWD programming, right?
  2. And also everyone knows which flavour is appropriate - sine or foc
  3. And obviously there is a bootloader in a separate project that wants the bin file
Clearly it would help to have a couple of HOWTOs in the wiki instead of the forum.
Again: forum logins work for https://openinverter.org/wiki as well. Please feel free to write things up, theres nothing you can break
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

TL;DR - Open source philosophy, blah blah. Unrelated.
johu wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:24 pmThis is a very interesting thread as it shows many of the implications us developers make.
That's the essence of open source. In my (limited) experience:

- Top tier of contributors are those that can solve the problem well. Their skills are rarest. If they feel like it, their efforts are best put towards solving the problem. This is hard work, where you have to juggle a vision of the whole project in your head at a time. In our community, these leaders are mostly Johannes and Damien.
- 2nd tier of contributors are those that could solve the problem, but due to inexperience might not pick the best solutions. They can understand everything the top tier did though. So if they're not assisting the top tier with fringe tasks, they're good to start off the essential documentation. This is most of the rest of the community here.
- 3rd tier of contributors could not solve the problem, but can at least partly understand what's going on. Since they couldn't contribute any other way, they should be used to troubleshoot, idiotproof, and flesh out the documentation. I might be somewhere between here and the next tier.
- 4th tier of contributors can't even understand what's going on but are grateful to have a solution they can follow. This is the majority of the people who'll use it. They help just by demonstrating that the solution is useful by using it, and popularize it by talking about it, helping justify the hard work everyone else put in (if their goal was for it to benefit as many people as possible). They're probably not even here, they'll show up after a little more polish.

... Now if the top tier of contributors end up having to do all facets of project, they'll only get 25% as much done. And, there's nothing the lower tiers can contribute because they need the work ahead of them to be done before they can contribute. So unless it's fun for them to do everything, the community should really support the leaders as much as possible. That's why I don't want to go pestering Damien or you (Johannes) about little details that almost anyone else could answer. From what I understand (because he's vlogged about it), that's exactly why Damien links here to this community, because he's too busy spending the time he chooses to on these projects by actually solving problems to be anyone's tech support or troubleshooting. There are lots of other people benefiting from the work he's doing, it would be nice if they (we) all do a little to step up and do that for him.

Without the help of others, "completed" projects often have no following, and the developer feels like they've wasted their time.

(This isn't a hard rule, for example, Tony Bogs is creating a very simple DC and now AC controller. (originally uM-less), and he's been quite blunt that he's solving this problem for himself, because he wants to use the result, and anyone else who might benefit is a fringe priority to him, though he's happy to share).
Clearly it would help to have a couple of HOWTOs in the wiki instead of the forum.
Again: forum logins work for https://openinverter.org/wiki as well. Please feel free to write things up, theres nothing you can break
I intend to help contribute by doing that, but I have to have a useful context I need to see all the pieces and how they work together. I'm not even done asking questions, so, it doesn't make sense to teach a topic half way through learning it. And I can already see there's some people behind me, who might not even be sure about what to ask, who are waiting for me to blunder through it first.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by Igor »

4th tier going on 3rd here!
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Tidbits of progress:

- Arber333 helped me clarify what type of Schottky diode I need. Also, on Damien's Prius Gen2 DC board, he has a similar reverse-polarity protection diode that's rated 40V and 5A. I couldn't find anything at Digikey at either 4a or 5a, so I went with a 3a, which Arber said should be all that the board needs. Maybe I'll stack two in parallel for whatever that's worth (they might not share equally, and unlike resistors that have a negative temperature coefficient [when they get hot, their resistance increases, self-balancing parallel resistors] diodes can be neutral or positive, but it's not going to hurt). It's only to protect you from being an idiot and plugging it in backwards, and presuming you're powering it off the 12v, you might only see 15vdc total on it, so, 40v is lots of overhead.

I think that's the last step of electronics I need before ordering.

- I believe the main Gen2 inverter plug I'm missing is a Toyota Part #: 90980-12153. Haven't found a place to buy it yet, but that seems to be the case. Source: https://attachments.priuschat.com/attac ... agrams.pdf -- Massive wiring diagram on the Prius Gen2. (Connector I10, page 393. Confirmed by page 379, and a few other places in the labelled pictorial diagram). Measured it today, The plastic width is 1.5" (38mm), which, for a 16x2 connector by the time you get through two pieces of plastic (3mm per side, so, 32mm of pins), might be 2mm pitch? [Edited 2 months later to add, it's not 2mm pitch, don't buy something with 2mm, the part number is later in the thread]. Maybe I could find some equivalent connector to temporarily scavenge. (Digging through my parts bins, it looks like old laptop IDE drives have a 2mm pitch [18pin, instead of 16, but I can cut it short], and usually had these little strip connectors to mount them to the actual laptop motherboards, one of those [or two, if the vertical spacing needs shimming] might do the trick in a clumsy way).

Image

Image

...

Regardless, unless Digikey has something comparable, I'll order my parts and start the assembly.

...

Next up, Damien's Github has 32 screw terminals for wires to connect to, and both his board and his schematic have them labelled... but... there's no description of what they are, what they're expected to be, whether they have to be there or not, or which wires those are on the actual Prius connector.

Image

There's also no supporting documentation showing the pinouts of the 32-pin 90980-12153 connector.

Now I presume Damien must have these because he wired it up and got it working, but, I can't find docs for them. Anyone happen to know those pinouts and expected connections offhand? I'll spend a few hours looking but I figure someone might just have a reference handy.

Baby steps.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by johu »

Just went to check, it's the same plug as on the Nissan Leaf LBC. Part number housing: 1318747-1, Pins: 1123343-1
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

johu wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:16 am Just went to check, it's the same plug as on the Nissan Leaf LBC. Part number housing: 1318747-1, Pins: 1123343-1
Digikey even has those in stock. $5.

What's do the "pins" numbers mean? [Edited to answer: The plastic plug is one part, but it does not come with any metal connectors. You have to purchase the pins separately, crimp them onto wires, and insert them into the plug plastic].

Digikey has those too, about another ~$7.

The chop shop was only going to charge me $30 for all of the cables, so, guess I should give them a call and see if they've brought in another Gen 2.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by johu »

The first number is just the plastic housing. The pins insert into the housing and must be ordered separately.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by jon volk »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:09 pm
johu wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:16 am Just went to check, it's the same plug as on the Nissan Leaf LBC. Part number housing: 1318747-1, Pins: 1123343-1
Digikey even has those in stock. $5.

What's do the "pins" numbers mean? [Edited to answer: The plastic plug is one part, but it does not come with any metal connectors. You have to purchase the pins separately, crimp them onto wires, and insert them into the plug plastic].

Digikey has those too, about another ~$7.

The chop shop was only going to charge me $30 for all of the cables, so, guess I should give them a call and see if they've brought in another Gen 2.

In my opinion it would be worth buying new connectors and terminals to work with. Ill gladly pay a small premium to use fresh parts. No worries of corroded contacts or UV degraded brittle plastic.

Ill be following along your journey. Ive been stumbling my way through github projects myself in an effort to learn.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

No worries of corroded contacts or UV degraded brittle plastic.
I get what you mean, but...

This connector is inside a sealed box, never exposed to sunlight or moisture. Everything else in the case looks like it's brand new.

I have more confidence in Toyota fabrication than my own crimping and assembly. Plus... I know I'm just going to use janky scrap wires I have laying around, not proper automotive wiring. :p
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

.

Parts have arrived!!

Soldering party tonight!

Won't be at the shop, (electronics is at home, shop is not), so won't get to see a motor spin but.. .. well I guess I could swing by the shop and carry the small motor and the inverter home, it's small enough. Hmm. Maybe.

No, I doubt it. There's too many wires I don't know where they all go on the controller, or where they come from yet. The 32-pin connector I have wiring for, but, none of the rest. Better just be safe and do the board build only tonight.

Wiring-unknowns-wise, for example, on Damien's board:

https://github.com/damienmaguire/Prius- ... %20PCB.pdf

https://github.com/damienmaguire/Prius- ... ematic.pdf

... the terminal blocks, there's "12v" labelled on 3 different sets of blocks (TB1, TB3, and TB4). Are these the same 12v? Why are there multiple? Where is the 12v coming from? Am I supplying it, or is the inverter?

What about the 5v rail?

Do all the GNDs (4) connect in common, or are they different grounds?

I can somewhat read the schematic, but 50% of what I think is going to be a guess, and that's going to quickly add up to "You presumed wrong. You get nothing!"

I'm going to try to idiot-proof this as much as possible, and go through this entire list, write a short description of what I presume each is supposed to be, and get them confirmed before I wire:

Image
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Started soldering.

Kinda screwed up. Headers got a bit jammed, tried to take them out, ended up lifting a pad.

Image
(bottom left, but also, top left)

I scraped the trace next to it, dobbed some solder on, and hoped that the pad that lifted with the header would somewhat reflow there when I redid the header.

The top left didn't seem to be an issue, I can't see any traces on the top side of the board that lead to it.

And then...

Image

... goddamnit Digikey. I needed 13x 1uF ceramic caps. I ordered 20. Digikey shipped me 11. The package says 20. So, I can't even test it today.

Also, I haven't soldered in a few years. And I'm spoiled because I used to operate a solder wave machine (fountain that arches 8 tons of solder). Bit embarrassed by my soldering.

Image

I have a minor excuse because I was filming, and soldering at arms length to not block the camera, and was too lazy to switch away from my heaviest spade tip, but, still, I should be able to solder by feel better than that.

Bit of a humbling experience. Before this I'd have thought I was fine to play around with SMT stuff, but, obviously not. Lifting traces, incomplete solders, etc. Glad this was a through-hole project.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

TL;DR - Nothing of value. Just project logging my particular failures.

Update of Shame:

- I soldered the three transistors in the top right backwards (correct to the silkscreening), because I missed a note about the silkscreen being wrong.

- I attempt to desolder the transistors to flip them around. I have a hot air SMT rework station, but no, I use the iron from said station to try to desolder the transistors instead. I know the pads lift easy, so I'm careful with it.

- I'm too careful with it, and I keep not using quite enough heat to pull the transistor out. When I do, I either rip or melt off two of the pads on the first transistor anyways.

- It gets worse, I snap the middle leg off of a transistor too, flush with the base (I ordered no spares because "I'm not an idiot, it's not like I'm going to wire them backwards and then break them turning them around", literally what I thought when I was "saving" myself $0.25).

- I use an x-acto knife blade to score around the middle pin on the transistor, then bend up a spare resistor leg into a Z-shape, glob solder on, and hopefully repair the transistor like it's 1957 and they're still precious.

- I test the transistor by diode checking EB, BC, EC, etc on my DMM. Checks good, no continuity when there shouldn't be any, 0.587v drop where there should be.

- I whip up some spare body panel epoxy to give structural hope to the center leg. Repaired?

- I'm too chicken to try to do the coffee straw trick to blow air at the now-filled solder pads when hot to blast the solder out. So I opt to try to just heat all 3 pins at the same time and hope I can push the holes clear when putting them back. Of course this doesn't work.

- I use some resistor leg trimmings to hopefully re-pin the holes. I then cut them flush on the back side, because I'm not thinking ahead.

- I try to resolder the transistors (the correct orientation) to the pins. Of course the pins are so short now that they have no heat sinking and float off their pads on the back side.

- I make it work anyway.

- I test for grounds where they should be, and no grounds where they shouldn't be. Tests okay.

- Possibly ruined board anyways, probably annoying inconsistent bugs in the future with howevermuch power these TO-92s are pushing, flexing the solder as they heat under load.

Image

"I can't fabricate worth a damn but at least when it comes to the electronics it'll be smooth sailing for me" -- MattsAwesomeHubris, 2019.

The good news is that once I've made all the mistakes, only the correct way to do things will remain!

Still haven't programmed the blue pill, might do that next while I try to figure what gets wired to which terminal blocks.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Close to testing time!

- At Johu's suggestion, fleshed out the wiki on the Prius Gen 2 logic board, and Damien filled in most of the wiring blanks: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Gen2_Board

- Added some pinout pictures and documentation as best I can understand from Damien's new notes on the wiki: viewtopic.php?p=4765#p4765

- I don't have a big battery pack but I do have a 10A variac with an FWBR I can attach, and, presumably turning that up slowly will charge the capacitor bank on the inverter sufficiently slowly. It should also mean that, despite rectified AC being a poor imitation of battery DC, I won't need a large cap bank on the power supply. 120v mains will be good for ~170VDC and that should be plenty good enough to test if I can get a motor spinning.

- My "small" motor 100lb motor presumably has an encoder or something on it, it has these light gauge terminals:

Image

No idea what all 6 pins are for or how to wire them to the encoder pins on Damien's logic board though (logic board looks like 4 pins: +, gnd, Encoder A and Encoder B... but, which those might be on this motor?) Maybe the 2-pin connector on the motor is a temp sensor, and the other 4 are the 4 I need for an encoder?

- Time to program my Blue Pill and see if everything explodes.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by johu »

They are superseals: https://www.ebay.de/itm/AMP-Superseal-K ... oKPaGjNQSw
On my old forklift motor I've got the exact same one: 1-4 is Vcc, A, B, GND
Just find the two pins that draw a few mA (please current limit ;) ) that will be your Vcc and GND and leaves only A,B. Those need pull-ups but I assume those are on Damiens board.
The other two pins a probably a temp sensor or motor protection switch (i.e. opens when too hot)

Ruining parts that you have no spares of is the greatest thing in the world. Guess how I know :P
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by arber333 »

johu wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:49 pm Ruining parts that you have no spares of is the greatest thing in the world. Guess how I know :P
Touche! :x
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by Stephen Darbey »

Excellent thread Matt.
Dare I say it's awesome stuff !
Now all we have to do is get this working and then, go again with the Gen3 pcb.
I think I'll go mad and order one.

Regards and happy new year everyone.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Just a quick update for those following the project:

- Been active in several other threads, getting some help on specific components and how to set them up.

- Got the Blue Pill programmed via ST-LINK.

- Got a wifi board programmed via Arduino IDE.

- Connected the wifi board to the Blue Pill wrong (wire fell out mid-wiring, plugged it back in one pin over, which happened to reverse polarity on the power supply), maybe fried both of them. They both seem to work (as in I can still recognize and flash firmware on them) but I don't know how to test whether any of their inputs or outputs are blown.

- Rush ordered new Wifi and Blue Pills, re-flashed them.

- Got stumped on how to use or what to expect on Johannes' web interface.

- Tried 3 different methods to installing Dima's alternative, apparently fancier interface, partial progress but each hit a roadblock on their own and not sure how to proceed.

Next up, trying to figure out how to test the software, if at all, or what I should use for some default values to run a test spin on a test motor just to see if things actually work.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by arber333 »

Try following this procedure:
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Schematic ... structions

In Wifi interface you can still use command line to calibrate current sensors.

There is a procedure on how to calibrate motor while in a car.
https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... count=1234

Also now i reposted it here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=468
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

In Wifi interface you can still use command line to calibrate current sensors.
I don't have current sensors. I might have an ammeter with a shunt, but, nothing for the inverter.

Could I get some from a Prius or are there some inside the Inverter already?

Can I skip these?
There is a procedure on how to calibrate motor while in a car.
I think that's dumbed down enough that I could follow those instructions. Excellent.

I think I had 90 days to exchange my inverter to the junk dealer, so I'm hoping just to even answer simple questions like "Does this inverter work?" and "Do I even have communication between the WeMos and the Blue Pill?" pretty quick here, this week I think.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by arber333 »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:41 am I don't have current sensors. I might have an ammeter with a shunt, but, nothing for the inverter.
Could I get some from a Prius or are there some inside the Inverter already?
Well there two sensors inside inverter. I think...
Those white plastic looking things around power rails are sensors. Sometimes they are two, some inverters have 3.
611rmboost.jpg
Thay should connect to your control PCB with Bluepill.

You can actually run ACIM motor without them. ;)
You just have to tweak inputs so inverter does not know they are gone. But i wouldnt advise it.

A
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

I know some of you have been following my progress and hoping for updates. Since I haven't updated this thread in 3 months, I guess that might leave the impression I've not done anything for 3 months.

Far from it. I've been so busy, and staying up so late working on it, I haven't had time to do my writeups.

I reached a new milestone for completion this week.

I'm keeping general build and car stuff off of these forums, so that they can more tightly focus on the inverter and electronics part of the build, and there hasn't been much of that lately. For anyone who wants to follow the mundane progress, I added another 10 or so posts and another 60 pictures to my thread on DIYEV: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/s ... 00587.html

And if you just want to skip to the point, here's a video of all the welding I've done in the last 2 months. I am now "done" merging my two junk cars into a single vehicle. Some of the welds still need a lot of work, but there are no new welds or brackets or fitment to figure out.



I am now starting driveline work with the goal of seeing the wheels spin. That's the big mental boost that makes it start to feel like a car again for me, and hopefully it motivates me to keep working.

Bit of a roadblock so far with trying to find a coupler for the forklift motor shaft, but I have backup plans.

Meanwhile, as I'm almost out of shop work to do, that means I'm going to take another crack at getting my Blue Pill Prius Gen2 logic board working so I can see the motor spin. Or, to give up and buy a Gen3 inverter and one of the new Gen3 logic boards from JLPCB off of Damien. Time will tell.
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by RetroZero »

Please don't give up. All that work done to get Gen 2 operating (like the Gen 3) is so near. And you are almost 'done'. ;)
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by RetroZero »

Did you manage to find those references for the Terminal blocks (TB6 and TB10)? I would like to start my parts list too, and attemp updating Damiens BOM.
The rest of your questions that follow are similar to where I am at, so trying to make sense of the replies, before asking the same Tier 4 questions again. ;)
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Re: 1970 Opel GT - Forklift ACIM - Project Log & Inverter Build

Post by jnsaff »

I just used these: https://www.distrelec.biz/en/pcb-termin ... cache=true the 2 position ones slide together and can form easily 6 and 10. It's a very common part and has many variations, you just need to make sure the pitch is correct.

These particular ones do have one problem though, they are a bit too wide on the bottom inside edge and cover the pin labels printed on the board just enough to be annoying. I used a little bit of sharp objects to hack away a bit of plastic so the labels are visible but someone might order a little slimmer ones.
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