Insurance in Ontario Canada?

Introduction and miscellaneous that we haven't created categories for, yet
Post Reply
TonyV
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Insurance in Ontario Canada?

Post by TonyV »

Well....
Before I started this conversion I called my insurance company (Hagerty) and asked if they would still insure the car even after I converted it to electric.
They assured me they would but, the car would be consider "Modified". And I was good with that.
12 months later and the car 95% complete, I go to renew my policy and that's when they told me that they would NOT insure the car.
FU_K!! :?
I have call 2 insurance brokers and both came back stating that non of the insurance companies that they deal with would insure the car.
Double FU_K! :x

Now I know I can bullsh.t and say the car hasn't been modified but I'm not willing to take that risk.

Has anyone in Ontario Canada has gotten legit insurance?
If so please pass on the name of the insurance company.

Thanks all,
Tony.
I'll figure this out sooner or later
MattsAwesomeStuff
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 290 times
Been thanked: 177 times

Re: Insurance in Ontario Canada?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Ontario is particularly nasty for insurance.

If you want to be strict in your obedience, far as I can tell, the answer is "no."

If you want to use wiggle room, and creative truths, you might get a maybe.

The answer you get will be highly, highly, highly variable depending on who you ask and how you ask. The exact same company called at a different time with the exact same questions will get completely different answers. If you try to nail down exactly why, it's kind of like asking a blind person to describe details in a painting. They might know a description of it, but they don't actually understand any of it and it's going to be like talking to a robot. They don't know how to interpret anything correctly, it's too complicated for their job, their script has dangerous trigger points on it that default to "no". 99.9% of these agent's jobs is "I have a 2020 Civic. Insure me please."

The crux is that Ontario has an extremely sloppy interpretation of "modified from OEM". This is literally a 1-word killswitch. They ask you if it's modified, if you say yes, they will not insure, they're forbidden from insuring. NOTHING modified can be insured except by some special agency that costs about $4000/year. How "modified" is "modified"? Unspecified.

According to the law that governs insurance (not the policies of individual insurers, which will have their own rules about how they operate their business and their own limitations), the key of what modified means is "Modified from OEM Standard". Most insurers won't know that. They'll make up a definition of "modified" on the spot, or refuse to, or insist on checking the "yes" box for literally anything. If you can, with a straight face, claim your car upholds OEM standards, then you can maybe just answer "no" to questions about modifications and be telling the truth, because that is the actual legal definition in Ontario insurance.

But they consider "modified" to be a street racer. This is the category of putting a 2000hp engine into the shell of a Cavalier, etc. Almost anything can trigger you into this category, and most places will just straight up refuse to insure.

People have had more luck going in person, or getting someone to inspect the vehicle in person, and to show them the GVWR is still under limit, and brakes have not been altered. Maybe that horsepower has not increased. They might sign off on it. Or, that's too much detail, and every new word you give someone is a new reason to reject you, so, there's value in shutting up on the details too. Depends on your attack method.

One additional concern is "Who is going to service this if it breaks, and how much might that cost?", if they can't reliably say, they will not insure, they have no information about how to charge a fair premium. So, you might have a lot more luck with liability only, not comprehensive.

In Alberta, it's still the wild west. Intact will even insure an DIY EV. If the vehicle passes a safety, companies are REQUIRED to insure it (though, doesn't say for what cost).

You can perhaps play the game of registering an Alberta corporation, the corporation owning the vehicle, and it being a company vehicle for you. You won't get personal insurance for it, as that violates the requirement that you drive majorly in the province in which it's registered, you would have to go with corporate insurance. Same as in the US they do the Montana loophole to avoid paying sales tax. Same as how all Uhauls (even in Canada) are registered in Arizona, because they're the most lax for inspections. And I'm not even sure if that loophole still exists.

This link might help, note the process he goes through. You have to go to a human, and the human has to take it to an underwriter and explain that this is totally safe and normal and not risky and not a racecar: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... ost-333850

This guy says do not say you converted to EV. You say it has changed to an alternative fuel source: https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... post-60731

However, the most recent and thorough thread I've read on the subject is from MoltonMetal, who read all these same threads, and said all these same things, and was shut down at every turn, in every way, trying every possible trick except obscuring the truth. He had, back in 2015, managed to insure, only by his broker giving him a tip to call a specific number at a specific hour, that redirected to a call center in India, which didn't have good enough language skills to process what he was disclosing, so they quoted him anyway when they shouldn't have, and then when later bounced up the line they tried to revoke it and he threatened to sue for not honoring their quote. And that worked for him until 2018. Even that delicate longshot was no longer possible, and, far as I know, he had to abandon replacing his EV (he got hit and wrote the original off, so he had to get a new policy for the new one, and never could).

Revisiting the whole thread, I'd forgotten most of the details. We had an extensive back-and-forth trying to rip the law and policies apart and find new angles to attack it from. It concluded in him officially appealing to his member of parliament. I don't think he ever made progress. There's varying levels of stupidity from insurance agents (simpleminded non-oem oil filters for example, they say they will refuse to insure a vehicle over, because they don't know anything about cars, they just stubbornly follow the script of "that is not an oem product"), which, if you know is being interpreted that way, I'd say you're okay to say "No modifications". Is an aftermarket oil filter "Modified from OEM standards?" no, it matches OEM standards, and therefor you can in good faith say "No modifications". The insurance company won't know that, but that's what the term means under the law that forces their hand. Is an EV conversion done as well as an OEM EV product, and not in excess of the abilities of the original vehicle? If so, then it too has not been "modified form OEM standards", and you simply answer "no", and they'll quote you normally. Whether they get pissed off if they inspect you after an accident is another matter, but, from what I've heard, many companies will pay out, and then dump you as a client. Which is not great, but okay.

Anyway, lots of detail in the thread, lots of tips (like, don't call a broker in the city, call one from a farm town where face-to-face is more important), he really went the extra mile and still hit a brick wall, perhaps because he's too stubborn to do anything other than fully explain his situation and hope to get approved. Death by Details is probably the result here.

https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/ ... st-1024175

... Actually re-reading the latest developments in the thread... he was able to find a company who found a legal way to quote, and it was ("only") 300% the cost of a non-converted vehicle (versus the 800% of insuring it like a street racer). With many limitations. But, it wasn't a brick wall. It was a crappy Yes.

Immediately afterwards someone mentioned they just called up their normal insurance company and got told "Yes" right away, with no changes. So again, if you're not trying to change the system and are wiling to play the game a bit, it's probably possible.

Having an existing relationship with the insurer is really the grease that turns a No into a Yes. No one wants to pick up an unknown client. Lots will bend their interpretation to keep an existing one.
TonyV
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:00 pm
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: Insurance in Ontario Canada?

Post by TonyV »

Thanks Matt for this awesome answer.
I'm the type of guy that wants to be legit and I don't want to worried about driving around thinking if I ever got into a accident would my insurance cover me.

Well spring is here and thought I would try again to find insurance.
Call my insurance broker and he went to work and looked for me.

Well I have some GOOD news and some BAD News.

The Good news,
No insurance company in Ontario would insure a DIY EV converted car....EXCEPT for one.
This insurance company isn't the typical insurance company that most of us deal with.
They deal with High risk drivers, People that put on alot of miles, truckers, uber, taxi, etc.

The company is called FACILITY.

The Bad news,
My broker Quoted me $3329/year with 2 million lability, with no other coverage.
I have no accidents or tickets on my record and live in the city.

So I'm in a dilemma, really don't want to pay that much (its more than what i pay for 2 cars) and i dont want to "bend the truth".
What I'm leaning towards is renting a trailer...taking it down to my local road course, run it for a few hours, deal with any issues, and put on MarketPlace and see what happens.
I'll figure this out sooner or later
MattsAwesomeStuff
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:40 pm
Has thanked: 290 times
Been thanked: 177 times

Re: Insurance in Ontario Canada?

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

TonyV wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:51 pmi dont want to "bend the truth".
Here's the thing... you're not bending the truth. They're bending the truth. Or, more accurately, the truth doesn't exist, there's just interpretations of it, all of which are flawed.

If you read that thread I linked, one of the idiots said an aftermarket oil filter is considered a "modification". The context of "modification" is crazy racer stuff, which explains the stratospheric premiums, not, literally just modified.

Meh, I'd just say no, no modifications. Get a yes first, and then a little while later say you're running it on different fuel with no horsepower increase if you feel like it. Companies are far less likely to ditch an existing client than to deny a new and uncertain one.
Post Reply