GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

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dadiowe
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GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by dadiowe »

I have been chasing this problem for a while now.

Firmware version 1.10a Zombieverter

I have enclosed my parameter settings and 2 pictures of plots with differing speeds and throttle activation.

My observations are,

Even though MG1 and MG2 data are selected on the graph I can't see a plot for MG1 (top of graph).
The power plot (very low curve at bottom of graph, red) seems to show a jump then a flat line then a drop off before the Torque drops to zero.

Any thoughts or observations would be greatly appreciated.
Attachments
Slow throttle  then hard.jpg
Pull away then hard throttle.jpg
params.json
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application

Post by arber333 »

Maybe transciever is deaf? See if your can/control wires are twisted in the same direction.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application

Post by dadiowe »

Re-continuing problem,

The plot included shows, Torque (Blue), Power (red) and Potnom (Orange).

I think this problem is related to the power of my battery pack, 52Kwh. You can see that the system is cutting in and out because of a limit.

Could the reason be that Damien is not seeing this issue is because his pack is 22Kwh and so he is not reaching the set limit?

I can only stop the cutting out by reducing my throtmax to 16% or below which makes it drive like a snail.

I have tried to edit out the line

310 Throttle::IdcLimitCommand(finalSpnt, Param::Get(Param::idc));

in the utils.cpp file to test this theory as per et0's post on 17th November but I am having trouble compiling a usable .bin file.

I must admit I am getting desperate as I have been chasing this issue for 2 months now. :?
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power loss.png
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application

Post by mjc506 »

So it looks like something's pulling potnom to zero, and the inverter is reacting to that? Any errors stored?

Checked the connections on your throttle sensor? A loose +5V connection, for example, could have the pot output drop to zero intermittently.

How's your throttle pot signal getting to Zombieverter? (Direct analogue connection, or over CAN? Scoping the analogue, or logging CAN messages may 'prove' that the Zombieverter input is good/not good)

The 'speed' readout in your first images looks strange. Some large intervals between updates? Noise/grounding issues? Or is your inverter cutting out and resetting?

If your throttle signal is getting to Zombieverter cleanly, then yes, I suspect you're hitting a limit somewhere. I think it can derate based on inverter temperatures, HV voltage, HV and/or AC current, and your BMS may ask it to derate. All of those require parameters to be set.

Your udc, idc, temp parameters look sensible (what is your minimum and maximum pack voltage?) Check your udcsw value.

Have you (re)set the throttle parameters (potmin potmax throtmin throtmax throtdead) since the recent-ish change to their usage?

Have you plotted/logged udc, idc, temperatures during these cutouts? If udc goes out of range/currents get too high/temperatures get too high, it'll derate quite hard.

Worth running through https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVer ... nd_testing again, just to make sure.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by dadiowe »

This problem was definately due to a hard cut off by the VCU. This may be a design point to stop the transmission being over powered. Unfortunately rather than tapering the power off there is a hard cut. This causes a massive shock through the transmission and could do more harm than good.
Having finally managed to get a compiled version of 1.10A with the line in util.cpp,
Throttle::IdcLimitCommand(finalSpnt, Param::Get(Param::idc));
edited out (//) I have a driveable car.
Thanks to those who have helped me with this.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by mjc506 »

I would encourage you to consider that as a 'workaround' at best, that function is supposed to protect against a number of possible problems. There's either a bug in the code, or a problem with your setup.
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Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by dadiowe »

image.png
image.png (35.21 KiB) Viewed 2800 times
BMW Z4
Zombieverter VCU version 1.10A
GS450h Transmission
52Kwh VW ID3 batteries

Regarding my previous posts about torque cutting, as per attached plot, the result of which is a massive negative load on the transmission, see enclosed gearbox mount image.
gearbox mount.jpg
I took the advice of et0's post on 17th November to edit out the line in the util.cpp,

Throttle::IdcLimitCommand(finalSpnt, Param::Get(Param::idc));

This has resulted in stopping the torque cut.

From the 256 views of my previous post there were 3 posts in reply, thanks guys I do appreciate any help I can get. I can only conclude that the issue does not seem to be that concerning.

Removing the line of code is, at best, a work around. My concern is that any total cut of torque in the drive line and its sudden return will not only rip gearbox mountings out but also put massive strain on the transmission.
I understand the need to control power for various reasons i.e. over reving, excessive torque, overloading batteries and inverters but surely a gradual cut is needed in all cases. A bit like when you over rev an I.C.E. engine the drop is slight and if you keep your foot down all you get is another minor cut.

I have built a car that is just about driveable and just about chargeable but I can go no further with out help from the community. I have tried to post on other topics that I have found solutions for when I have the knowledge and do not believe that I just take and don't try to contribute.

Sadly, I am not capable of resolving this issue. I do not have the understanding to modify the code.

You may think that the problem is something to do with my installation, which is possible, but even if my work is faulty, cutting torque totally within the software is not good for anyone.

At the moment my questions would be,

Should I buy and try a GS450 VCU which seems to be working, being driven, has regen and even low and high gears? The downside of this set up is I want to use BMW Lim fast charging for which I have already obtained all the components.

Is the Zombieverter actually being developed by anyone at the moment for regen and gearchange? I do not mean any disrepect but a guide as to where we are with the Zombieverter would be helpful.

Is anyone else driving a converted car using a GS450h transmission and Zombieverter?
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by crasbe »

Opening more threads about the same issue won't accelerate the development.

The bug in the idc limit handling is known but as of now not yet fixed and it's known that the torque limiting due to overcurrent/overcurrent/overspeed can be too hard.
The regen feature will be added back in again (as I laid out in the release with the major throttle upgrade). For the time being nobody had the time to properly test regenerative braking so it was deactivated to avoid posts and threads of frustrated people.

I don't know about the gear change, but since Damien only just finished the reconversion of his E39 to GS450h, more progress can be expected here.
But the most important point is that you have to be patient to wait for the known problems to be addressed or do the debugging yourself (with that I mean that you isolate why the error happens and supply a fix in form of a Pull Request). Since you said that you can't do the coding part, you'll probably have to rely on option one.

You can go back to the GS450 VCU if you want but I don't think there will be any more work on this except for maybe porting the ZombieVerter code to it, but that doesn't have a high priority either.
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by dadiowe »

With the greatest of respect, it has prompted an update which has provided the state of affairs at this time. If this information had been provided in my previous post I would not have needed to repost.
Maybe this information is common knowledge and if so could you point out where I should be checking for updates. If there is no source might I politely suggest that some sort of update on a regular basis might stop a lot of questions as to the state of affairs and reduce the frustration that inevitably occurs.
I understand that this progress is done by most people on a voluntary basis and I am grateful for every ones efforts. You all invest time and energy in this project as do I.
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by crasbe »

All updates can be found in the official github repository and all updates were announced in the ZombieVerter VCU thread (before it was closed): https://github.com/damienmaguire/Stm32-vcu/releases


You could've extended your last thread instead of opening this new one. With the new thread there's more fragmentation of information, so one would have to search for all the bits of information from the other threads.
One thing you could do is trying to find and consolidate the other posts and add the links in the first post.
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by dadiowe »

I used the word "update" as to how things were going not what software version we are on even with my limited skills I can check the github.

I am sorry not only can I not code, I do not have the slightest understanding of forums and manipulating information within them unfortunatly I am 65 years old and threads, post and reposts are another thing I have difficulty working with. I find it interesting that there seems to be an assumption that we all know everything about this sort of thing.
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by johu »

Alright, easy.
Where is that last thread? I can just merge them
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by dadiowe »

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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by johu »

ok, merged the two
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Re: Zombieverter GS450h Torque Cutting

Post by 86elcamino »

dadiowe wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:53 pm I used the word "update" as to how things were going not what software version we are on even with my limited skills I can check the github.

I am sorry not only can I not code, I do not have the slightest understanding of forums and manipulating information within them unfortunatly I am 65 years old and threads, post and reposts are another thing I have difficulty working with. I find it interesting that there seems to be an assumption that we all know everything about this sort of thing.
I feel your pain. I think most people on this site have a lot more experience with electronics than we do, and also use this form of communication more than us. I can't blame them for assuming that everyone here knows all about these things, since they mostly do. I know I am way over my head in this project, and appreciate what help I've gotten from everyone here, but it can be frustrating for us older folks, that don't have the same background.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by catphish »

Perhaps a silly question, or I've missed something? Why comment out the IDC limit rather than just increase idcmax in the web interface? Is there a bug here?
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by mjc506 »

"Can't understand code", "can't do forums", yet will happily chop out safety related sections of the firmware... I don't suspect we'll get any response until something goes pop :(
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by dadiowe »

catphish wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:14 pm Perhaps a silly question, or I've missed something? Why comment out the IDC limit rather than just increase idcmax in the web interface? Is there a bug here?
I had the IDC max set at 5000 and min at -5000 to no effect. I found a comment somewhere regarding a torque cut issue that suggested this would show that the problem was related to torque cutting and tried the IDC limit as suggested. I should not have put "solved" in the title as this is only being used to prove a software problem rather than an installation issue. I had been chasing this problem for about 2 months and it is now just about the only thing stopping me from running a finished car.

As far as bugs are concerned I can only quote "crasbe" as saying on 14th December 2022,

"The bug in the idc limit handling is known but as of now not yet fixed and it's known that the torque limiting due to overcurrent/overcurrent/overspeed can be too hard.
The regen feature will be added back in again (as I laid out in the release with the major throttle upgrade). For the time being nobody had the time to properly test regenerative braking so it was deactivated to avoid posts and threads of frustrated people."

To this date I have not heard anything or seen a relevant update on damiens stm32vcu forum.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by dadiowe »

mjc506 wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:24 pm "Can't understand code", "can't do forums", yet will happily chop out safety related sections of the firmware... I don't suspect we'll get any response until something goes pop :(
In response to your helpfull post please read my response to catphish.

I also refer to your post of Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:18 am

"I would encourage you to consider that as a 'workaround' at best, that function is supposed to protect against a number of possible problems. There's either a bug in the code, or a problem with your setup."

To which I replied on Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:18 pm
part of the reply was,

"Removing the line of code is, at best, a work around. My concern is that any total cut of torque in the drive line and its sudden return will not only rip gearbox mountings out but also put massive strain on the transmission.
I understand the need to control power for various reasons i.e. over reving, excessive torque, overloading batteries and inverters but surely a gradual cut is needed in all cases. A bit like when you over rev an I.C.E. engine the drop is slight and if you keep your foot down all you get is another minor cut."

Why is it that you find my comments about coding and forums upsetting?

Do you have a car that you have spent a year working on with a Zombieverter ECU and a GS450h gearbox that is sitting on a drive with in excess of £10000 spent waiting to drive safely on the road apart from software issues? If you have then please advise me on how to proceed.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by paaa »

Im happy to test in the land yacht with zombie to confirm if there is an issue I haven't seen yet. Can you outline what the issue you are having specifically is and what you think causes it and I will test that scenario and get back to you.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by paaa »

Also bringing torque to 0 means adding 0 torque and freewheeling so a bit surprised that it broke something , sounds like a different issue.
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by paaa »

Have a test of this , Damien has provided an update , my have be an issue with how current direction is signed.
https://github.com/damienmaguire/Stm32- ... /tag/1.11A


Let me know how you get on and I'll be updateing to test over the weekend
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by Jackk »

Hello all,

I have a gs450h zombie-verter and am experiencing the same violent cut in power.

I have just flashed zombie to V1.11A and sadly the fault is still there. Just thought id share that I am experiencing the same troubles.
I will try to resolve. If I get anywhere ill be sure to post on here.

Jack
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by Jackk »

Jackk wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:42 pm Hello all,

I have a gs450h zombie-verter and am experiencing the same violent cut in power.

I have just flashed zombie to V1.11A and sadly the fault is still there. Just thought id share that I am experiencing the same troubles.
I will try to resolve. If I get anywhere ill be sure to post on here.

Jack
UPDATE - I have just tested with removing the current limit from the code and it still unfortunately has the same issue.

It only happens when I really boot it generally at higher RPM. it burns rubber just fine from standstill but there is less current needed to do this from what I understand so it does seem to happen at higher current levels.

Can anyone suggest what to do next?

One thing I'm reluctant to do is change my serial wiring (going to be a bit of a ball ache). The run of the wiring is relatively short id say less than 1m. They are twisted pairs but NOT shielded. Could non shielded serial wiring be the cause? My gut feeling is a code issue as others have experienced the same.

any suggestions would be great

Thanks
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Re: GS450h Cuts Out on Heavy Throttle Application SOLVED

Post by dadiowe »

I have set my car as per Damiens video with the 1.11 update and it has fixed my torque drop. My RPM was set at 6000 and
the rev limit was noticable but not violent. Other settings when I drove the car were, as far as I can recall, throtmax 50% and throtramp set at 1.
I have not tried the car with any settings changed as yet.
Hope that helps
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