Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

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Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by johu »

This (not really new) thought spawned once again after seeing Tom's latest podcast with Andy Powell. EV conversion with OEM components needs more demystification!

UPDATE: browsing openinverter.org now directly redirects to the wiki

I think it may not be quite obvious how to achieve this so the first "open task" might as well be the discussion about it.

Things I'd consider important:
  • Make the openinverter.org portal page more useful. Maybe just redirect to the wikis Mainpage and redesign the latter to start out lightly, mainly linking to categories and most importantly beginner friendly entry guides such as...
  • ... A very top level guide of how to convert a vehicle with second hand OEM components
  • ... Electrical Engineering Basics
  • ... Mechanical Basics
  • ... Legalities
The good news is that most of the content already exists, it's just not quite interlinked in a beginner friendly way. Also Gregskis "Now what" forum topics are a great source of information that should make its way to the wiki

So a example sentence could be "For charging your EV you need an on board charger that converts AC to DC. These chargers are currently supported by the openinverter project". The word "These chargers" would then link to the already existing category that lists all the various chargers that are supported. Clicking on one leads to the already existing details page on the charger.

I'm also wondering whether it's possible to establish a "trust fund" that could financially support a team that commits to maintaining the wiki on a regular basis.

As they say on yt: thoughts and comments down below
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

I've been thinking of suggesting that for a while now, and never did, because OpenInverter is still your business which, is only fair to direct people to your store and your own solutions, and the wiki is more community-based. The wiki itself I don't think was ever even linked on the front page, you had to go to forums, and then find the wiki link, and ... that's a lot to expect a beginner to do. So, that's very generous of you to make that change.

Where did the old landing page and all that good info end up? I presume much of it will need a transition of some sorts?

I've been meaning to re-write the wiki, or OI landing page for a year or two, it's just a daunting task to do all at once. There was an old thread about doing this, I think I criticized the "Getting Started" page for having 78 links and detailed technical info, which is the opposite that someone getting started is hoping to see. Got your endorsement to make the changes, and then never did.

To recycle old thoughts, the landing page should be geared towards the perspective of "I'm thinking of converting a vehicle to electric. I maybe have a vehicle in mind, or maybe a motor in mind. Where do I go from here to make decisions?" ... because, that's the position of almost everyone who shows up. Maybe a bit less here than on the DIY EC forums, but, generally the first reply to each post is the same recycled advice. Better to have it written down.

No disagreement here. Christmas seasons is busy but I'll try to chip away at it.

Perhaps there should be a temporary Old Page, to break the task into 2 pieces, so you don't necessarily have to find a place for all the old content at the same time that you're removing it from the new front page of content.

My two cents.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by johu »

Great!

The old content is still at openinverter.org/docs but I think most of its contents is on the wiki anyway.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by Uppertown »

Is it worth setting up a separate Patreon for a trust fund? I'm happy to chip in but find it easier to put in a few quid a month than a lump sum.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by mark »

I'm more than happy to help with this. I've actually stopped myself more than once when I was going to make a major changes to the structure or organization of the wiki. I've felt like there should be some consensus, or at least sounding board, for high level decisions.

I guess it comes down to design requirements? I think Johannes' first post is exactly the kind of thing that's helpful. I work in a SAFe / Scaled Agile environment, and I think some of the methodologies could apply here. Fixing the wiki is way to big of a task to take on all together, but breaking that epic down into smaller features (2 weeks - 3 months of work), and then those into smaller stories (less than two weeks) should help it feel less overwhelming and more actionable.

I'm not an EE, nor even a professional developer anymore (and never for C++), so writing and editing documentation is one of the ways that I can give back to the community.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by Zapatero »

I would like to contribute and already have some ideas. But also i don't just want to change the wiki. For example i think i found a mistake in the BMW lim wiki, to be exact where ac charging is described (one AC in the text should be a DC). But I would love if the system would work in a way that changes have to be approved by another person. I just don't want to mess the wiki up by being wrong...
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by Pete9008 »

Zapatero wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 pm I would like to contribute and already have some ideas. But also i don't just want to change the wiki. For example i think i found a mistake in the BMW lim wiki, to be exact where ac charging is described (one AC in the text should be a DC). But I would love if the system would work in a way that changes have to be approved by another person. I just don't want to mess the wiki up by being wrong...
Agree completely with this, and it's the main thing that stops me from contributing. I'm not comfortable posting on the wiki unless I'm 100% sure (and I very rarely am) and a review would help a lot with that.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by mjc506 »

There is (I'm 99% sure) a 'history' function, so any changes can be blamed on the correct victim can be reverted if needed :-)
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by crasbe »

Zapatero wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 pm I would like to contribute and already have some ideas. But also i don't just want to change the wiki. For example i think i found a mistake in the BMW lim wiki, to be exact where ac charging is described (one AC in the text should be a DC). But I would love if the system would work in a way that changes have to be approved by another person. I just don't want to mess the wiki up by being wrong...
I say: Just do it.
Reviewing changes in the wiki for correctness would take a tremendous amount of time and I don't think anyone has that kind of time to spare. Errors happen (and as you can see the wiki is not error free at all) and nobody will blame you for that.

As a wiki admin I can see those little red exclamation marks which indicate that the change has not been "patrolled" yet. So the system you proposed is already in place, but I couldn't possibly keep up with that.
2022-11-28 15_20_15-Recent changes - openinverter.org wiki – Opera.png
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by johu »

Agree to crasbe.

If unsure you can just leave a note. In addition you can put the page in a "Request for Review" category so that people who like to review can find it. A page can be added to a category by selecting "Categories" from the top right burger menu or putting a tag into the page source: [[Category:Request_for_Review]]

When the review is done the page is removed from said category
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by janosch »

johu wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:22 am ...
UPDATE: browsing openinverter.org now directly redirects to the wiki
...
Nice, now the forum is quite hidden though, I would make the link bigger/more prominent on the wiki sidebar maybe?
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by TheSilverBuick »

janosch wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:59 pm Nice, now the forum is quite hidden though, I would make the link bigger/more prominent on the wiki sidebar maybe?
I won't lie, I had a moment of panic when my usual link didn't bring me to the forum!


I sure wish my work would slow down so I could go back to hobbying some EV stuff and contribute.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by marcexec »

What do you think about some "reference architectures" that are beginner friendly,
i.e. if you don't deviate you'll have an easier journey?
Maybe even include a shopping list?
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by Zapatero »

I actually tried this in my build thread:

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2292
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by smathermather »

I am a total newbie here and discovered the forum maybe a week ago, and finally discovered the wiki a few days ago (maybe independently of the structural change? I'm not sure). I run a technical forum elsewhere on the web with some friends, colleagues, and collaborators, so it has been fun to do a deeper dive here not only on the technical/learning side, but seeing a deeply technical community from the outside looking in, and trying to discern what works here we can borrow as well as which challenges here are similar to ours.

Anyway, landing on the forum first, it took little time to realize openinverter.org is about EV builds. But it took me quite a bit longer to realize that much of the recent successes here have been in open sourcing the process of converting a vehicle with second-hand OEM components. That was probably because it took so long to find the wiki where that is plainly stated.

Anyway, carry on: in the few days I've been here, it's already much easier to follow along for those of us who are new.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by mjc506 »

That's a good point. openinverter started as a scratch built inverter and control board, then moved on to reusing OEM inverters with the Open control board, and has more recently started on controlling OEM inverters over CAN (not replacing any internal parts).

I think the first 'scratch built inverter' stage is really only of academic interest now, with the availability of cheaper, better, more robust OEM inverters. But may be worth separating the inverters needing an OpenInverter control board and those that can be driven over CAN?
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mjc506 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:33 amThat's a good point. openinverter started as a scratch built inverter and control board, then moved on to reusing OEM inverters with the Open control board, and has more recently started on controlling OEM inverters over CAN (not replacing any internal parts).
That in itself is something I've never seen summarized elsewhere.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by smathermather »

Feel free to edit or revert my edits on the wiki landing page (adapted from mjc506's note above):
https://openinverter.org/wiki/index.php ... on=history
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by lsh3rd »

I think many threads on the forum do a good job of describing one particular subsystem, but tying all the subsystems together seems to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery. I'm thinking of a few examples that come to mind:
1. What is the relationship of the charger vs. the BMS in the battery and how do these subsystems interact with one another?
2. How to design a HV junction box - what systems do these need to tie together.
3. How to wire the main components together, special considerations with HV wiring. What do I do if I need to pass wires through the chassis?
4. I want heat and air conditioning - what relationship do these have to the other HV components?
5. Choices with power steering and power brakes.

I think it is quite tricky to sort out all the edge cases on these various components and how they interact, so perhaps a few various templates of example systems would serve us well:
a. Design a very inexpensive front wheel drive EV with the least expensive batteries and yet have a usable range.
b. Design a rear wheel drive EV with more range and higher performance.
c. Design a dual motor all-wheel drive EV.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by janosch »

lsh3rd wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:20 am ... but tying all the subsystems together seems to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery...
Because that's where the trouble lies in any engineering project! That's where the complexity is hiding.

Increases in scope & complexity
  1. Spinning a motor on a bench is a project that takes x time, money and effort
  2. 10x: Spinning that motor in a meaningful way on a car is another project
  3. 10x (again!): Simplifying this so a normal person that doesn't know you can use it like a normal car
The further down you move in that list, the more decisions you have to make, and the more freedom there is the more ways are of doing things, so you can quickly end up with a system of which only one in the world exists!

Hitting a moving target
Additionally we have the problem that knowledge rots fast because the space is still expanding at a rapid pace (it's the internet in 1999 all over again!). Especially with new components being unlocked by J&D and others on a regular basis (opening up new avenues!). Your build also depends on your budget and your locality, Europe and North America have different pools of parts available, different legalities by country.

On the other end there is foundational knowledge that holds for decades and hasn't changed much.

Linking Wiki & Forum
All that said, linking wiki pages back to forum threads that are still developing and vice versa is a good thing to do. I have done that a few times, and eventually the more permanent threads will turn into wiki pages (if we do it).
Screenshot from 2022-12-06 11-50-45.png
Screenshot from 2022-12-06 11-50-45.png (15.42 KiB) Viewed 5160 times
Describing learning paths for others
If you think there is a "path" that needs a simple description make a wiki page for it, with links into it and links out of it where you can go at the end of that "path", people will then traverse it and contribute. Nothing worse than an orphan wiki page.

The knowledge base will grow organically and a bit messy but with time we will tidy up the most commonly traversed paths.

Focus time
Given the vast amount of areas one can learn about you have to be relentless in prioritising what you are working on not to get tangled up in details and end up never developing anything "complete", there is no way you can read everything, so you might as well start with meaningful intermediate steps, no need to program your indicators with funny lights if you haven't got a car that drives/charges (unless your goal is indicators and not a full car!)
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

... odd, I was going to like a couple of your comments, but this forum doesn't have the like button...
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by lsh3rd »

janosch wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:02 pm The further down you move in that list, the more decisions you have to make, and the more freedom there is the more ways are of doing things, so you can quickly end up with a system of which only one in the world exists!
This is a really good point... it really is a decision tree with a series of tradeoffs that must be made. It's the root of any engineering project. I think what makes this even more complex is that the root of the tree might be a different starting point for every individual.

For example, if I were building a low cost conversion vs. a performance-oriented conversion. Low cost might start out around a certain battery pack. High performance might originate at the motor/inverter.

Some of these tradeoffs will be directly tied to fabrication skills of the person involved. If one was very inexperienced at fabricating, they may want to simplify the motor install and have a vehicle that fits batteries more easily.

Maybe someone wants to start out with a certain vehicle or type of vehicle - the parts will need to fit in the vehicle rather than finding a vehicle that can accommodate a set of parts already chosen.
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by marcexec »

lsh3rd wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:59 am This is a really good point... it really is a decision tree with a series of tradeoffs that must be made. It's the root of any engineering project. I think what makes this even more complex is that the root of the tree might be a different starting point for every individual.

For example, if I were building a low cost conversion vs. a performance-oriented conversion. Low cost might start out around a certain battery pack. High performance might originate at the motor/inverter.

Some of these tradeoffs will be directly tied to fabrication skills of the person involved. If one was very inexperienced at fabricating, they may want to simplify the motor install and have a vehicle that fits batteries more easily.

Maybe someone wants to start out with a certain vehicle or type of vehicle - the parts will need to fit in the vehicle rather than finding a vehicle that can accommodate a set of parts already chosen.
I'd say most conversions start with the vehicle. One has to be attached in some way to go through the effort as the end result is so niche that it is only of value to fellow enthusiasts.

In my mind that decision tree would start with "I want performance (choose a motor)" vs. "I want cheap running costs (hope your donor can fit Outlander or Prius transaxle and figure out where to put some batteries)".

I'm also a fan of tables in a Wiki to help you make those decisions like FLOSS projects have for device support (e.g. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices).
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by johu »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:44 pm ... odd, I was going to like a couple of your comments, but this forum doesn't have the like button...
The permission granularity of phpbb got me. Enabled now.
I was always permitted to like because admin - so didn't immediately understand what Matt was on about

This thread shows how much wisdom there is, much to like now, that it's permitted ;)
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Re: Project demystification - make openinverter.org more accessible

Post by janosch »

marcexec wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:22 pm In my mind that decision tree would start with "I want performance (choose a motor)" vs. "I want cheap running costs (hope your donor can fit Outlander or Prius transaxle and figure out where to put some batteries)".
I think these are excellent starting points, so I made stubs for both paths:

I want a Powerful EV conversion
I want a Cheap EV conversion
Screenshot from 2022-12-08 10-39-28.png
There could also be a third path:
"I want an EV conversion but I can't code yet"; Maybe Gregski can write a bit there?


Legalities should be added to the cheap one as that will affect the build.
A section for potential target vehicles?
A section for calculations and links to example "cheap" projects?

Please contribute, don't be afraid to completely change what I have done, there is a history function, nothing is lost if you make radical changes.

Also these pages don't have entry and exit points, what should they be? Should they go on the main page somewhere after the FAQs? Are these FAQ pages?


Edit: Actually I added them near the FAQ sections on the main page. Someone want to flesh them out more?
Screenshot from 2022-12-08 10-18-17.png
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