Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Mitsubishi hybrid drive unit hacking
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MattsAwesomeStuff
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Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Hey everyone,

There are so many threads and so many pages on the Outlander, most of which are exploratory and detailed. I was wondering if someone who's got their finger on the development pulse of this platform could write up a state of affairs?

Think of it as from the perspective of a novice (not an engineer) who's looking to convert a vehicle using maybe the Outlander, in the the next year.

Really brief, really dumbed down.

The kind of thing I'm looking for is, what's the status on reverse engineering a given component, what are its relevant specs, how much momentum is there behind more work being done on it, and does it look like we're going to see a purchasable solution to it in the next short while. How suitable is it for its donor parts, and how close is the community to being able to hand that to a beginner and say "Yeah, this is a viable way to plan your build." My motivation is 30% personal (I might yank out my current setup and go with this), 70% just staying on top of the meta so I know what to recommend people to keep an eye on.

I feel like I'm moderately well informed about Tesla, Leaf, Prius, and Lexus parts, but there's so much to sift through on the Outlander it's too intimidating.

Anyway, anyone who wants to give an overview, that'd be appreciated. I might even take that and condense it into an Outlander landing page on the wiki.
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by arber333 »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:35 am .....
Anyway, anyone who wants to give an overview, that'd be appreciated. I might even take that and condense it into an Outlander landing page on the wiki.
I would think that Wiki would be the best way.
I can say i tested most of the aux components and they work driven by CAN bus telegrams which are NOT too protected. What is left is to condense those component commands into a single VCU firmware. I have made this for DUE and things work directly with surprising ease.

I must say i tested/turned Outlander rear motor with Lebowski brain and with gen2 Openinverter brain on Volt inverter hardware. It works with sensorless (L) and resolver control (OI). I havent touched the OEM inverter as of yet. I have a setup here and i am preparing to make an application for small cars of about 1t.

Components that i tried and they work OEM with my VCU: https://leafdriveblog.wordpress.com/?s=mitsubishi
Charger/DCDC combo: viewtopic.php?t=628
Outlander heater: viewtopic.php?t=1207
AC compressor: viewtopic.php?t=1997
And the last iteration of the VCU: viewtopic.php?p=46685#p46685

Components that were developed and tested for (not myself yet):
RWD motor and inverter: viewtopic.php?t=2167
BMS and battery can also be controled by those VCUs which use some spinoff of SimpBMS code:
viewtopic.php?t=131&hilit=simpbms

There are others components like vacuum pump, power steering etc... that could be used from Outlander donor...
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

arber333 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:17 amI can say i tested most of the aux components and they work driven by CAN bus telegrams which are NOT too protected.
Ambiguity with the phrase "they work".

"They work" could describe the theory of operation, or, "They work" could mean "We already know how to use them and have solutions already tested and operating."

I'm presuming the latter?
I havent touched the OEM inverter as of yet.
Just to be clear, are you saying that if I told someone they could run out to a scrapyard and buy the rear assembly, the charger/dc-dc, the cabin heater, the A/C, and the BMS... all they'd have to do (for now) is get a different inverter that has already been reverse engineered to power it, and otherwise there is already something that exists that I could tell that person to use, and it would make all those components work on their conversion?

It's difficult for me to understand how far progressed the reverse engineering is. It's too technical for me. It's not something in progress, these things are already in operational state?

And, at that, all that's needed is an Arduino and some other connections? No fancy replacement hardware? Is this because CAN is a shortcut to making your own hardware, and the CAN has been easily decyphered already?

Sorry for all the questions, it has to be dumbed down enough for me, so that I can dumb it down further for others.
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by Bigpie »

Outlander Heater 2016+ is can controlled - https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... ter_Heater
Outlander DC DC & Charger is can controlled - https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... r_DCDC_OBC
Outlander AC Compressor is can controlled - https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... r_DCDC_OBC
Front inverter is can controlled - https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... t_Inverter
Rear inverter is can controlled - https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mitsubish ... r_Inverter

The Mitsubishi page is here: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Category:Mitsubishi other ancillaries not documented.
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by aot93 »

Here is my view:

Rear motor and inverter - I would say work is complete and there are a few options for control, Tom91's VCU available at https://citini.com/product/evs-vehicle-control-unit/ or roll your own using the published code, ZombieVerter control is in but needs testing.

Charger / DC-DC - Again I would say work here is complete and supported in the above

BMS - Again work complete and has been long supported by simpBMS

Front motors and inverters - Well understood and follow the same control principles above, but it seems folks prefer to use the rear units in most conversions

Heater, AC compressor - are working using the published CAN messages, arber33 has them integrated into his controllers but I'm not aware of them in other VCU projects
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by tom91 »

aot93 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:01 pm Here is my view:

Rear motor and inverter - I would say work is complete and there are a few options for control, Tom91's VCU available at https://citini.com/product/evs-vehicle-control-unit/ or roll your own using the published code, ZombieVerter control is in but needs testing.
Thank you very much for the reference.

The VCU also supports the Charger and DCDC and contains all the BMS functionality from the SimpBMS. (Also have a EVS-BMS for sale that does everything a Simp-BMS did plus more, like 2 packs).

In terms of using the AC compressor and Heater, there are DBC files and proven methods of control, these can be rolled into what ever VCU you want to run them on. These components how every are a lot more "intergraded" if done properly. You would need to share the battery with the drivetrain at the least, let alone any SOC conservation strategy or charging strategies ect.

I would say if you take all the HV parts out of the outlander they can be made to work with the info found on this forum as they where in the car. This is also documented on the Wiki pages. https://openinverter.org/wiki/Category:Mitsubishi
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by arber333 »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:05 am Ambiguity with the phrase "they work".

"They work" could describe the theory of operation, or, "They work" could mean "We already know how to use them and have solutions already tested and operating."

I'm presuming the latter?



Just to be clear, are you saying that if I told someone they could run out to a scrapyard and buy the rear assembly, the charger/dc-dc, the cabin heater, the A/C, and the BMS... all they'd have to do (for now) is get a different inverter that has already been reverse engineered to power it, and otherwise there is already something that exists that I could tell that person to use, and it would make all those components work on their conversion?

It's difficult for me to understand how far progressed the reverse engineering is. It's too technical for me. It's not something in progress, these things are already in operational state?

And, at that, all that's needed is an Arduino and some other connections? No fancy replacement hardware? Is this because CAN is a shortcut to making your own hardware, and the CAN has been easily decyphered already?

Sorry for all the questions, it has to be dumbed down enough for me, so that I can dumb it down further for others.
A bit late, but still...

Sorry not the native speaker here.
I meant i integrated them into my EV and they work every day in my conversion including today with 120km driven. Heater was used together with diesel webasto and i had to use AC in the morning to demist the windshield. In place of charger now i use Tesla gen2 3phase charger, but i still have Outlander charger connected mainly because of its DCDC function. I was able to add its 3kW3 power to the main chaarger when i charged on particularly strong EVSE.

NO... well not only... i belive those components mentioned, together with inverter and rear drive combo were proven to run together with minimum of lobotomy with CAN bus control and so i have the plan on doing...any day now :).
Of course you can still go and bash your head to the wall to bring it down eg. replace the inverter brain and tune up the motor which is a project in onto itself...

As far as i know aot93 demonstrated true opensource control for inverter-motor combo. He says its crude, but i havent tested it as of yet.
What i must say is that i intend to compare it to my Lebowski Leaf drive which drives really smooth at RPM. Untill then anyone can tell otherwise.

You could use Arduino IDE or platformIO ibelive. As long as we are talking about DUE or Teensy you can get away with Arduino enviroment.
My version of VCU which works on ESP32 chip also has wifi and bluetooth integrated on chip.
I will try to put something together in Arduino as well.
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by arber333 »

Meanwhile....
A friend is working on his Outlander conversion. You can take a reference here: https://twingorse.wordpress.com/
Of course i am doing his VCU :).
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

arber333 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:53 pmSorry not the native speaker here.
I know, that's why I wrote out the ambiguity, as the point of this thread is to eliminate confusion and unknowns. Your English is certainly better than my... Slovenian.
I meant i integrated them into my EV and they work every day in my conversion including today with 120km driven.
Okay, gotcha. That's great new.
Of course you can still go and bash your head to the wall to bring it down eg. replace the inverter brain and tune up the motor which is a project in onto itself...
Because I somewhat understand "inject signal directly" whereas CAN control is "Black magic box makes other box do things" I'm intimidated from approaching CAN-based solutions. There's no getting away with messing with the programming at a deeper level. On the flip side, CAN is so neat and tidy - after it's reverse engineered well - that I'm coming around on the matter.

It's the "good enough for an engineer to figure out" solutions that get abandoned at the 90% line, that are 100% unusable to non-engineers, that are so intimidating towards even bringing this up in conversation as an option. The solution either needs to be simple enough and documented well enough for a novice to understand, or polished enough for a novice to just use. Anything in between is the usability poison.

Going through the threads and the wikis right now, it's very much in the realm of "Brainstorming napkin notes from engineers", so it's hard for a non-engineer to even evaluate without a deeper context. Even Tom's EVS product page, which is a finished product, isn't friendly enough from a "explain what this is, what you need to use this, and what your situation will be after you've used this" perspective.

There's hardly any actual sentences there, just technical notes in any of the documentation. Which is fine, that technical sharing is essential on the road to progress, and I certainly can't carry it farther. When the time is right I'll try to write a more novice-friendly tour of things.

...

In other news I started trying to find one locally, just to get a ballpark on pricing. Well, in North America we missed the first 5 years of production, so we're looking only at 2018 onward, which isn't "scrapyards overflowing" point by a longshot. Anything ~8 years new goes to wreckers, not scrappers.

Also, the usual wrecker interchange database doesn't allow you to specify the hybrid version, so, that's a pain in the ass to decypher. Outlander in general might not be as good an option outside of Europe/Asia. :/
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Re: Outlander State of Affairs 2022

Post by arber333 »

Hm... i see your point now. Lets say it like that...
CAN bus is neat because it is encription. It needs to be exactly the correct data or nothing. If you consider torque request telegram can change 10x in a second (100ms) you wouldnt feel this in the car. You would feel a push or brake or glide.

While i certainly wont offer anything without testing myself i really enjoy working with can.. and i am a sloppy ME not a programmer.

Myself i find lots of parts are available from Poland. Way more than other places.
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