[WIP] Voltswagen T2 -76

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Cera
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[WIP] Voltswagen T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Hey'a from the Funland that is Finland!

Slooowly trying to start my build of a T2 bus I have.

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This bus used to belong to my granddad and has pretty significant meaning to me as I remember it from my childhood too. Actually I remember that the first car I wanted even before having a license was a T2 due to this one. Of course I could never afford one back then and it'd probably have made a horrible first car. :lol:

Granddad eventually drove it to Estonia where he had settled for retirement and used it for transporting guests from the harbour city Tallinn to his lodgings further in the countryside. The bus suffered some sort of engine failure there in the first decade of 2000's and was left into a shed to wait for repairs. Originally with T1 engine, the Estonian friends of my granddad managed to source a supposedly new T4 engine for it but the engine swap was never completed. The engine they found is some form of abomination from German military, it has EMF shielded wires and supposedly runs on 24V system. I wonder why that didn't work out. :lol:

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Anyway, come year 2019 and granddad's health had started to fail. He wished for me to have the bus since he knew I had liked it, so we rented a trailer and a van for the rescue mission. And there it was. We talked a bit with granddad about how cool it'd be to have the original "hippie van" to run on modern green tech, but considered that unrealistic back then.

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Granddad has since passed, and this silly pandemic has taken most of my energy and effort since I work in healthcare so I haven't had much to give for the bus. But now it's finally looking like I could have some time for this as well. When I first got the bus, the idea was simply to get it running "any means possible" so I put up project threads on Samba and whatnot, but the more I've read and the more I've learned about the reliability of the original T1, the challenges and the parts needed for the T4 conversion, especially with some weird 24V starters and alternators, the more it's started to seem like going electric isn't that unrealistic after all, and could even be much better option in a long run.

I've just put my motorbike on sale for financing this project, and I'm learning the ropes of EV conversion and the build I want to go with. I do have some experience playing around with older vehicles, but EV world is new to me. But hey, what's the fun if there's no new learning path to follow.

Bus itself is in a decent condition for one that's been sitting 10-ish years in a cold shed. No major rust, no missing pieces. Just two mouse nests. :) I've cleaned it all and removed everything but dash. Trying to recruit some friend to help with dropping the engine out next. (Surprisingly difficult when all my friends seem to want nothing to do with heavy oily machinery :lol: but I'll manage.) I plan on selling the T4 afterwards. I also have the original T1 unit in pieces, which I plan to clean and keep as part of the bus's history, but doubtfully will even try to repair that.

This needn't go fast nor be comfortable even, this needs to be reliable and have a decent range. :) Regen is must, heaters are not. Right now I've been thinking of keeping the original transmission and going with AC-50 (51?) or Hyper9 depending on what I can source easily here in the North. I considered Tesla SDU as well, but to my eye it seemed like a more difficult option. If you're in differing opinion I'll gladly hear it! I have found a company in Finland dealing old Tesla battery units and am planning to contact them for pricing when I've some better plans sketched out. There is also a one resto/conversion shop in Finland if I run out of juice doing this on my own, but I'd rather at least try first. :lol:

Oh also I'm infamously bad at updating forum threads but we'll see how this goes. :lol:
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

Very touching history.

I think a Leaf stack would fit it well and be quite cost effective, Damiens VCU or ZombieVerter can run them all. The Leaf 1 isn't actually a stack but separate components, maybe beneficial in your case? Leaf 2 and 3 stacks are all integrated with motor, inverter, charger and DC-DC converter in a rather high tower. Also gives you the choice to run the Leaf transmission or bolt the motor to your existing one.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by PaulHeystee »

I agree with Johu, the Nissan Leaf motor stack well suited and pretty strong, I would suggest to bolt in the complete unit including the Leaf gearbox/reduction box.
Besides the Zombieverter there is also a computer made by EV-resolve (Sweden) which is even more plug-n-play, but less versatile than the unit from Damien.
I am doing a conversion of my Saab 93 cabrio, using the complete motor stack out of a later type of Leaf (160 kW), however, I think I will go with the Zombieverter because I can modify the software to better suit my needs on the Saab, like gear shift selection (switch instead of push button) and some dash indicators like temp and fuel=state of charge.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

I may have to look into Leaf motors more, hm.

I did read about Leaf stack, but dismissed it after seeing so many people going with Tesla SDU and most of the Youtube (yea I know, not the best source :P ) conversions showing stuff like EV West AC-50 or Hyper9 so those just seemed like proven options with good chance of success and readily available adapter plates etc where needed. Haven't come across with many Leaf builds yet, but I'm looking.

Learning as I go. :)

Choice of motor is also somewhat limited by our strict legislation, I need to go and have a chat with the people doing the paperworks to make sure what I can and can't do.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by m.art.y »

People that go with the likes of Tesla LDU obviously want exceptional power from their builds for race track or other reasons. But take a look at the LDU maintenance thread on this forum - you might change your mind as there are quite a few things that can go wrong with those units. Leaf system can deliver more power than you'll need but is simpler and usually cheaper.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by celeron55 »

In Finland it's not legal to add LDU amounts of power to one of them hippie buses anyway. 20% extra kW is allowed compared to original motor. I guess you can trick your way around that somehow, but I wouldn't risk it. The Leaf system is probably too much also, but I guess it's possible to reason around this, as it's one of the lowest power OEM systems available.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

I was talking about SDU not LDU :)

But anyways yeah, I need to check with the MOT people.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

That would pretty much rule out Leaf 3 - too powerful.
I don't recommend Prius drivetrain yet, has to be proven. But would be even more appropriate in terms of low power and super low cost.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

celeron55 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:54 pm 20% extra kW is allowed compared to original motor. I guess you can trick your way around that somehow, but I wouldn't risk it.
Also this changed some 2 years ago or something, and the current limit is determined basically only by weight/power ratio. Adding more than 20% does mean that brakes and safety features need to match "at least the reference vehicle", i.e. in my case the most powerful of -76 lineup, 2.0l 52kW, which didn't have anything special going on brake-wise. :P

"If the power ratio of the reference vehicle is over 20kg/kW, it can be changed to as low as 12kg/kW"

My registration slips say 1220kg for gross weight for the bus, so we're easily over the 20kg/kW. Quick math would therefore result into ~100ish kW as theoretical maximum limit for the new motor assuming vehicle weight stays unchanged. Adding more weight within the limits of the max. carrying weights per axel would give even more favourable calculations, but hey even 100ish kW is illegally good for this kind of bus. :lol: Like said I'll confirm this with the MOT people once I can.

Assuming that I didn't misinterpret this totally, options such as Hyper9 HV (peak 89.5kW), 1st gen Leaf (80kW) and AC-51 (peak 65.9kW) should still all be on the table.

Tesla SDU, on the other hand, is not. RIP that was a quick crushing of dreams. :D Ah well...
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

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:P

Engine drop today. Not the most perfect execution and bent the lower bolts a bit but eh, it's not going back anyways.

Rear bumber was welded to place in addition to its bolts so there simply was no room for the engine to come rearwards enough. I suspect they've planted the whole engine+transaxle in Estonia when they did the swap there. I wasn't smart enough to remove them as one unit and realized my mistake halfway into the process :P Ah well.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle as would most likely be necessary in this bus where the engine room exists in the rear...? Of course this would kind of invert forwards and reverse, but does that matter with electric motors?

Reason being, there isn't really much room in front of the rear axle, when the original engine sits behind it. So the only option I can think of is either mounting the Leaf motor to the existing transmission (rather would not), or turning the whole stack wrong way 'round and perhaps cut some metal from where the fuel tank normally sits (above the clutch bell housing) :P

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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

Motor works fine both ways around. Leaf transmission might not.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Bratitude »

Cera wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:18 pm Hmm. Is there a specific reason why Leaf motor should be mounted "in front of axle" (as it sits in Leaf itself) when using the Leaf gearbox? Or can I mount it "wrong way around" with the motor sitting "behind" the axle ....
I’ve seen the leaf motor/gearbox mounted with the motor behind the axles, ie “flipped “ in a few conversions.

from what I’ve seen inside the em57 gearbox, leads me to believe there should be no issues running it in reverse.

if you run the leaf inverter via canbus you’ll need to swap 2 phase conceptions and flip the resolver connections, as the inverter won’t deliver full power in reverse.


I’m also working with a local gear shop on making stubs flanges for the leaf gearbox. With vw Type 2 and 930 cv joint bolt pattern.
As I think the leaf stack is such a prefect fit for old vw buses !
4D8EED7B-893B-49A4-BC23-F0C573489278.jpeg
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Bratitude wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:09 am from what I’ve seen inside the em57 gearbox, leads me to believe there should be no issues running it in reverse.

I’m also working with a local gear shop on making stubs flanges for the leaf gearbox. With vw Type 2 and 930 cv joint bolt pattern.
As I think the leaf stack is such a prefect fit for old vw buses
Yeah I did take a look at some disassembly videos from youtube as well and came to the same conclusion. :) just a bunch of helical gears and nothing that'd care too much about the direction it's spinning :P

I'm now debating in my head about if I want to be keeping the original transaxle or no. I realized that mounting the Leaf motor with its gearbox would most likely mean at least cutting some metal from where the fuel tank normally sits in, since it does look a bit tight spot in there. Also work needed for the CV shafts, building some sort of mounting cradle for the whole thing and whatelse more is starting to overwhelm me a little. Keeping the old transaxle would avoid a lot of that.

Of course it'd be neater with the Leaf gearbox, buuuut.

I also got an offer to trade the unknown condition Typ4 I dropped yesterday into a rebuilt transmission of my choice so that's tempting a bit as well.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by PaulHeystee »

Hi Cera,
Yeah it might be easier to mount the Leaf EM61 or EM57 motor directly to the VW gearbox. An other advantage is that you can select gears to suit you needs, like climbing up a hill or driving on the motorway. You will be either in 3rd or 2nd gear, if I remember the gear ratios of the VW gear box.

I think you can run the Leaf motor + gear box in revers but I looked inside the Leaf gearbox and found that the top of the gearbox casing has a small splash reservoir (oil gets splashed in) which than let it drip on the gears back again. I am not sure if this also works in reverse. When I am back in my workshop I will take a picture of this reservoir.

by the way, I have a EM61 (gen1) motor + inverter here for sale, if you are interested.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Hi!

Yeah keeping the old transaxle, perhaps with slightly modified innards for optimized ratio and durability might be the way to go. We have a VW aircooled repair shop here, who I believe could do the work just as easily as restoration of the transaxle to original.. and it needs work nevertheless having sat 10+ years untouched. Don't think I'll trade me a new transaxle for the Typ4 after all, I found that it's some rarer variety so I'm waiting to see if some person with a mind for history wants to claim it :P before selling it for parts value.

Went to check for the floor to see what the rust side of things looks like:

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I mean.. Could be worse :P but still need to figure out what to do with this too soon. I don't have any welding equipment nor experience, but anything can be learned if need be :D checking up with car body work shops first though for their offers, if I'm lucky there is a professional willing to tackle it for a reasonable price.

Indoors:

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As for the Leaf motor, I know it says "140V to 420V" but what kind of voltage it does actually run nicely with? Like.. what's the original Leaf battery output V it's designed for? It's difficult to find anything but Leaf motor coupled with Leaf batteries it seems, and I guess it's for the voltage reasons because achieving even the lowest end 140V with Tesla modules is going to get proper expensive proper quickly. :P
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

Leaf battery is about 360V nominal. Even with an empty battery at around 300V it will still output its 80 kW because Nissan start derating the torque at 3000 rpm while they'd have enough voltage to maintain it until around 5000 rpm (with full battery). So with 140V you'd look into around 40 kW and pretty early torque drop off somewhere before 2000 rpm
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Thanks!

I did some quick calculations based on the info I'm able to find online. (EDIT: LATER I'VE LEARNED THESE PRICES WERE GROSS OVERESTIMATIONS :) )

With the 360V nominal required for optimal output for Leaf motor, compared to 140V required for Hyper9

This is by no means my definitive plans but rather a quick sketching to shed more light to options available again. :) Price estimates are from quick online searching, not the "best price available".

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Maybe it was obvious for you folks from the beginning, but as a newbie it certainly wasn't. But anyway it's clear that running Leaf motor with Tesla batteries is just not feasible cost/benefits-wise. :P Maaaybe with slighly above the minimum voltage reqs but that just wouldn't make a good build in my mind.

Running for example Hyper 9HV, aiming for ~50kWh at 140V with Tesla modules would add up to nigh 20k eur (batteries+motor) in total excluding bits and bops and work. Assuming motor kit price of 5000eur.

Running Leaf hardware all the way would prooobably be half of that at around 10k for the batteries + motor. Way cheaper, but with a question mark hovering over the battery lifespan, my skills in wiring up the VCU's as well as less proven motor mounts, couplers, etc.

I purposefully calculated first with 140V as it was the minimum for Leaf motor. But I guess 2p5s would be the most feasible with Hyper9 style of option with 114V, 52.4kWh, 10 modules adding up to 13k-ish eur. That'd bring 50kWh price (batteries + motor) down with 2 modules and to ~18k eur. Still way more than Leaf hardware.

I'd really like the longevity of Tesla modules as well as the internal cooling option, but bah Leaf makes a very attractive alternative in batteries as well. :D

I'm throwing these thoughts here for a reminder for myself as well as for the others :)
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by muehlpower »

Have you ever thought about the Tesla model 3 short range modules? Such a set is available for around €5000-6000, has 400V and around 50kWh.

Something like this was offered here
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopi ... 893#p27893

He installed such modules in the T3
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopi ... 742#p17742
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

I hadn't! That sounds like a very attractive option as well! Thank you a lot for the tip.

Does anybody know what would Leaf motor say about 400V? I found some rating for EM57 which reads 140V-420V but seeing the low-end of that clearly isn't usable, would the other end and 400V risk frying stuff?
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

Cera wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:26 pm would the other end and 400V risk frying stuff?
No, all good! (The 40 kWh Leaf pack that I run 403V fully charged)
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by PaulHeystee »

Leaf 24 kWh battery packs can be bought for about Eur 2.500,- with 80 to 90% SOH, with lower SOH the price is also lower.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by shirk »

Would the whole BMW i3 motor and drive unit fit in the back? These are designed for rear engine layout. So no need to spin it around backwards.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by Cera »

Gearbox out. One of the rusty bolts did put up a small fight and required cutting. The most powerful cutter I have currently is a Dremel but ah well, it did the job. :D CV shafts came out easy, although the bolts were covered in mud and grime I had to clean first to even see them.

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That's the de-ICEing almost complete now!

But, as it so often is, one problem solved leads to another one discovered.

While removing all kinds of small bits and bops in and around the motor bay, I eventually reached the heater hoses. Now I knew from beforehand that these probably would present an issue, since they feature everybody's favourite insulation material from the 60's; seals made of asbestos. I sprayed the joint with liberal amounts of oil and put wet cloth on it, then with all fingers crossed and hoping someone had replaced them in the bus's history removed the plastic tubing. Alas. There they are, completely stuck on the rusty metal pipe. No way I'm going to pry them off with screwdriver.

Covered them with liberal amounts of thick grease to prevent any dust, wet cloth on that, and retreated to think of the next game plan. :D

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The other one is still safely stuck between the black plastic hose and the metal it connects to.

Ah well. Problem solving.
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Re: VW T2 -76

Post by johu »

Nice, like renovating a 60ies house then ;)

Do you still need the water hoses? I think the electric drivetrain can be cooled with a tiny A4-sheet sized radiator that sits in the back and you just duct some air to it.
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