Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Topics concerning the Tesla front and rear drive unit drop-in board
OlyThoreau
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by OlyThoreau »

What were you all able to find on the coolant? I'm working on a Tesla LDU from a 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric Drive. Looking in the operator manual, it makes reference to 310.1 which can be found here:

https://operatingfluids.mercedes-benz.c ... t/310.1/en

This subsequently references 320.1 for the coolant specifications. When looking at 320.1 is seems to say that all electric drive cars not in the Smart line of vehicles fall under specs 325.6 and 326.6. See 320.1 here:

https://operatingfluids.mercedes-benz.c ... coolant/en

It has a note, #2, stating "Restriction: Notes: For all vehicles with manufacturing date as from May 2014"

Both 325.6 and 326.6 list Zerex G40 as one of the many options. The issue here for me is that G40 is pink, and while the label states it is for Mercedes, it seems like G48 is more along the lines of what is in my car, and all of the RAV4-EVs and Tesla's I've seen taken apart. Blue-green color, and it says Mercedes & Tesla on the label.

Noteworthy is the fact that 325.0 and 326.0 specs from the following link specify G48:

https://operatingfluids.mercedes-benz.c ... coolant/en

Here is the bottle I picked up:
20220715_110325.jpg
Any thoughts on this appreciated.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by muehlpower »

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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

OlyThoreau wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:24 pm What were you all able to find on the coolant?
Any thoughts on this appreciated.
I use Zerex G48 too because my Toyota RAV4 EV Owner's Manual AND Toyota's garage manual prescribe it. The drive units are identical between RAV4 EV and Mercedes BED, except for the inverter electronics, so I expect the same coolant for you, except if your manual prescribes something different.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by muehlpower »

Zerex G48 and Glysantin G48, which I use, seem to be the same. On this data sheet both are mentioned and approved for Tesla from 2013.
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/D ... 162d889bd1
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

In Feb2021, I spent considerable online time attempting to find an alternative to the Chenming seal, without success. Note, Chenming, not ceimin. I liked that the Chenming seal is a triple-lip seal, too. See that link for further info.

I emailed Electrified Garage, asking for info, but they didn't deign to even email back to tell me to go fly a kite (as we Yanks like to say).

The circumferential brush at the pinion end of the rotor also seems to be Not Available, and is an important wear part that I don't hear anybody talking about. Discussion of that brush and some pictures are, again, in that discussion linked above.

[warning: member alflash (Vlad) likes to edit his posts a lot, sometimes weeks or months later, to add information presented later, so it retroactively appears that he knew things then that he only learned later, and makes our subsequent questions appear foolish. There's a downside to being able to edit posts forever. An example: he first refuted that there is a brush in the Tesla LDU, and when I provided a picture of it he first claimed that that's not a real brush, and later he published my picture in his own previous post to show that he already knew about it. Ugh.]

A side note: the Toyota RAV4EV and MB B250E drive units are based upon the similar Tesla Model S of that timeframe (2011-2012), but a LOT of the parts are not interchangeable. Notably, in the RAV4EV the whole unit is mounted reversed from how it's mounted in the Model S, with the axles behind the motor/inverter (the Model S mounts the axles ahead of the motor/inverter). Consequently, in the RAV4EV the rotor runs backward compared to the Model S. Which means they have unique parts with pinion and other gears running the helixes at a reverse angle to make the shaft loads the same as the Model S.

One of these is a Tesla LRU, the other a RAV4EV DU (I forget which is which), and while the orientation of the pics is bad, you can see that the gear helix angles are reversed between the two:

(click on image for larger)
Image

Further discussion of this is here.

And the lubrication pump is different to accommodate the reversed drivetrain rotation.

Toyota insisted on an electric Park pawl, which the Model S doesn't have, so the case is different on the RAV4EV as well.

The inverter may be interchangeable, and some of the other hardware, but many gears and at least one case half is not. I suspect that the coolant flow path is also reversed between the two versions, from what I've seen.

Neither Tesla LRU of that era runs the oil pump when driving in Reverse.

---

There are a couple of different approaches to monitoring coolant leakage into the dry bits of the LRU; a 5-8mm hole drilled at a certain low point of the motor end of the DU can be used to detect (electrically) the presence of liquid coolant; QC Charge offers to install a more-elaborate dual-port version of this with a lateral tube, which seems a bit overkill to me; a weep hole in any of several locations, then watch for stray liquid on the ground.

QC Charge posted a vid last year on how to remove the rotor speed sensor to check for liquid on it (indicating seal failure); it's only four minutes long:

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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

@asavage: Thanks for contributing!

Ceimin is said to be a name brand owned by Chenming according to the person responding to questions in the chat here on AliExpress [edit:] and Chenming verified this in writing. I know that it is a common problem that "middle-men" act as if they are the manufacturer.
Q1: How to verify?
Q2: I am about to install one to "add a data point". Can you show cases (other than mentioned in this thread) where the Ceimin seals fail "quickly"?
Q3: What do you think about the SKF 30x55x7 HMS5 V as mentioned earlier in this thread?
Q4: In case of a triple lip, two of the three lips are not cooled by direct contact with coolant. Is this a problem? Is this why tesla opted for a single-lip seal in (for example) my DU (rev G)?
Q5: Maybe the problem is not the seal itself, but wear (polishing) of the shaft surface, decreasing the surface roughness below e.g. ~0.075μm (ref: Parker PTFE rotary seals) or 0.050μm (ref: Trelleborg PTFE rotary seals). Maybe Tesla tried to reduce this by reducing the lip's pressure by adding the concentric cuts (see prev post in this thread) What do you think?

Remark: The right image is the RAV4 because it shows the four parking pawl notches in the rightmost shaft.

Aegis ring ("brush"): Aegis confirmed to me that they are the supplier, and that the brush does not work when contaminated (confirmed by others as well). Contamination seems to occur in the DU bc it's right next to the inner rotor bearing. That bearing leaks excess grease, despite the fact that the bearing already has very little grease in it already in comparison to low RPM bearings. Grease: Roughly 15% of bearing free volume, I estimate, I actually measured 7.5% only after a bunch had leaked out already. So that is why Aegis is currently showing a potential successor that is (hopefully) better in dealing with contaminations.
My theory is that you do no need Aegis' ring as long as you have hybrid ceramic rotor bearings, because the circulating currents due to asymmetry in motor design are now mostly blocked and because the VFD-induced "common mode" currents will be carried away through the (larger) primary gearbox shaft's bearings at a sufficiently low current density. See also scientific papers about this metric from the past decades. Or it electrolyzes the coolant!?

My story is only anecdotal: My DU ran ~42k miles (hybrid rotor bearings) with zero visible fluting bearing damage *while* it was driven very conservatively (no fast accelerations) in warm weather. But if you always accelerate fast from standstill (zero RPM), then bearing forces are large, while bearings are still at zero/low RPM, which may be too low for proper lubrication, and so the distance from balls to races is small. Next the (otherwise untouched) electric discharge induced craters (pitting) come in contact with the ball, in turn triggering resonance movement, causing fluting, in turn causing excessive wear and noise. Bearing manufacturers & researchers seem to agree that fluting is caused by resonance after pitting.

The helix in the pinion causes axial and radial load components that result in non-homogeneous load distributions along the races. The larger the loads, the more pronounced this is. The resonance "mode shape" satisfies those "load constraints". As a consequence, fluting may occur non-symmetrically along the race (in both circumferential and axial direction) as shown by this CarRepairVideos episode. Non-symmetrical fluting may also be caused by misalignment of the bearing as mentioned here, but I doubt that that is the case here.

So maybe car driving behavior + temperature are the most important factors affecting fluting and shaft grounding rings are ineffective?

I may be dead wrong.
Disclaimer: Despite all efforts, all (which I write) should be conservatively interpreted as a poorly informed, error-prone, non-expert opinion that is subject to continuous change, especially in this age of hyper-specialization and newly gained insights.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Boxster EV »

I have now fitted the aforementioned SKF seal. It will run on the Speedi sleeve.

I took the car for a blast last night and everything seems fine.

I’ll update any relevant long term feedback in this thread.


Edit: Johan kindly did some calculations ref RPM and seal tolerances. With my wheel sizes, the seal will be in tolerance to aprox 12500 RPM which equates to 100MPH.
ED613D01-F774-4481-906D-E8B094259783.jpeg
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A333459D-9D90-4CAC-90BE-032C672D1107.jpeg
1F566D66-5756-4B22-BE86-45885C1A3F7F.jpeg
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Vsevolod »

Boxster EV wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:27 am I have now fitted the aforementioned SKF seal. It will run on the Speedi sleeve.

I took the car for a blast last night and everything seems fine.

I’ll update any relevant long term feedback in this thread.


Edit: Johan kindly did some calculations ref RPM and seal tolerances. With my wheel sizes, the seal will be in tolerance to aprox 12500 RPM which equates to 100MPH.

ED613D01-F774-4481-906D-E8B094259783.jpeg

1A191CC0-4B5A-4609-A521-2B51B38B80D9.jpeg

1F4DA2E4-6A19-41EA-B303-8ED526891C57.jpeg

BEC3B8DF-F85D-4BC6-B885-B44E6CC268FC.jpeg

9E41829F-31A5-4062-A527-9406933DAEC2.jpeg


A333459D-9D90-4CAC-90BE-032C672D1107.jpeg


1F566D66-5756-4B22-BE86-45885C1A3F7F.jpeg
And you do not want to restore the surface of the rotor? From roughness and pits
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Boxster EV »

What’s the point?
Boxster EV wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:20 pm It's all good feedback, Folks.

The SKF 30x55x7 HMS5 V is designed to work with the SKF speedi sleeve 99114. If it works, it'll be a far easier solution to repair than having the rotor re-machined.

I'm happy to be the guinea pig. I am however away on business for a week so wont be able to install until I return.

Edit: spec sheet here:

30X55X7 HMS5 V_20220711.pdf
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Vsevolod »

Boxster EV wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:41 am What’s the point?
Boxster EV wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:20 pm It's all good feedback, Folks.

The SKF 30x55x7 HMS5 V is designed to work with the SKF speedi sleeve 99114. If it works, it'll be a far easier solution to repair than having the rotor re-machined.

I'm happy to be the guinea pig. I am however away on business for a week so wont be able to install until I return.

Edit: spec sheet here:

30X55X7 HMS5 V_20220711.pdf
Maybe the oil seal will go longer or check with a speedi sleeve?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

I love the Speedi-Sleeve; I've used them going back decades, but never on a shaft whose speed approaches anything like the Tesla's rotor. Still, when I saw Boxster's corroded rotor, "Speedi-Sleeve" was my first thought.

Flame-spraying shafts to build them up prior to re-machining back to size used to be an expensive process -- 30 years ago -- reserved for large/expensive industrial equipment; perhaps it's now commonplace? Certainly, the Speedi-Sleeve has the advantage of cost and fast turn-around.

---

Regarding induced rotor current: My earlier theory was was that the ceramic bearings were chosen for their superior bearing performance, and that it was later discovered that the electrical isolation property moved the current path into first the gearbox-end rotor bearing (the one Nathan says is the one they find in poor condition when repairing RAV4EV DUs), then later into the pinion gear, which is the next feasible ground point, and that the circumferential brush was added to reduce that particular pair of ground points (gearbox/pinion bearing and the pinion itself). But, Tony has stated that the brush has been present from the earliest REV1 Toyota DUs, so that guess may not be a good fit with the observed facts.

The rotor spline wear may actually be electrolytic corrosion; splined assemblies, in my experience, do not move (and therefore do not experience mechanical wear) if there is no axial movement or misalignment of mating parts. Misalignment should be minimal in this kind of all-in-one assembly, and that leaves axial movement or electrolytic corrosion as possible contributors to spline wear. Certainly "rust dust" is not going to migrate from a place external to the splines into them.

Anyway, this is all just fun speculation, unless you're trying to obtain current replacement parts. My own RAV4EV had its DU replaced @ 59k and is now at 105k. I expect to need to repair this seal and bearings issue again whilst it's in my ownership -- I really like this car -- and that's my reason for participating in speculation and following along; Boxster is ahead of me and actually replacing the seal multiple times, so naturally I'm enjoying my position as voyeur ;)
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

Boxter EV wrote:Porsche 986 powered by a Tesla large drive unit. Backwards.
I'm sure I could locate the answer to this question via a search somewhere, but I'm on my way to the dentist, so I'm distracting myself: is your reversed LRU modified to lubricate? My understanding is that, as supplied, the Tesla oil pump will not operate in reverse. Is there a mod you perform to regain oil pump output when running it reversed?

Also, I'm curious about the various gears' axial loading when running a Tesla LRU in reverse for extended periods; as I described above, the similar setup in the RAV4EV (and perhaps the MB B250e) used reverse-cut helixes on all gears, for reverse operation. I haven't stared hard at the LRU's geartrain, but typically axial thrust is only controlled in one direction, so running for an extended period of time reversed would, I would think, lead to undesirable wear of bearings that are not designed for thrust control. Do you have any thoughts on this? Or, can you point me to how these are modified to deal with the large-ish thrust loads in the "wrong" direction inside the gearbox?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Boxster EV »

I’m running a reverse drive oil pump, Quaiffe diff and standard Tesla gear sets. It’s a project car so if anything goes awry I’ll deal with it. It’s been fine for the past few years.
9279CD22-EE56-4F67-9821-32D736FE9C4D.jpeg
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Edit: and thanks for everyone’s contribution!
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

Vsevolod wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:19 pm Maybe the oil seal will go longer or check with a speedi sleeve?
The HMS5 V seal will most likely make contact with Boxter's sleeve, because there is at least ~3.5mm left to the edge of the sleeve (estimation based on pics above / DU CAD model shown below / SKF seal CAD, assuming the DU dimensions match my rev. G DU). The great thing about those sleeves is that the surface roughness Ra = 0.250 to 0.500μm (source), something you cannot achieve/measure easily yourself in your average home garage. Note however that this roughness likely exceeds the optimum roughness range for PTFE from both Parker (0.075-0.300μm) and Trelleborg (0.050-0.200μm), I could not find SKF's range. Maybe that contributed to the relatively fast wear of the PTFE seal, who knows.
Capture.PNG
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

One lip failure from the Chenming seal may be explained by looking here:
Speedy Sleeve.PNG
The left lip made contact with the cratered shaft surface, not with the sleeve. That explains failure of that lip. But what about the middle lip? That one should have functioned, right? Then why not? Maybe the added thermal resistance of both the glue (or worse: air gap) between the shaft and sleeve and the sleeve itself, and the possible initial lack of direct liquid cooling made it wear out quick or overheat and fail? Also the excluder (right lip) seems right on top of the sleeve's groove and fillet, which is not optimal.

Related to this: See how I tried to give the shaft the correct surface roughness for the Chenming seal:

Disclaimer: Despite all efforts, all (which I write) should be conservatively interpreted as a poorly informed, error-prone, non-expert opinion that is subject to continuous change, especially in this age of hyper-specialization and newly gained insights.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Boxster EV »

Your videos are excellent and will be a huge help for those that have to do this in the future.

In reference to using the speedi sleeve with Chenming seal; it was mentioned earlier in this thread that the sleeve is not wide enough.

In my second 1000 mile test (with chenming seal and speedi sleeve fitted), you are correct that the seal was not running all three contact areas of the sleeve. Using two of the three lips with the third overhanging the sleeve is clearly not ideal.

However, as a very rough datapoint I also tried using two sleeves as pictured below - with the join resting between the second and third seal lip. Ignore the polished sleeve wear marks as they are not truly indicative of where the seal was running as I tried the sleeve in multiple positions. I never fully tested the double sleeve option as I wasn’t comfortable with the arrangement as firstly I couldnt get it out of my head that the Chenming seal is rubbish and secondly I would need to cut the outer one down to size. Also, the SKF option was presented at this time so I gave up on the double sleeve chenming set-up.

You are right to highlight the challenges of fitting the manifold without damaging the seal. It’s very easy to fold over the first lip or tear the inner ones when putting it on. The big issue is that it’s almost impossible to know whether the chenming seal is correctly fitted.

Hope this flakey update helps a little. Although I think the various methods I’ve tried is confusing the situation.

As mentioned previously, I will update this thread with my findings of testing the SKF set-up as and when.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Skudak »

asavage wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:08 pm
I emailed Electrified Garage, asking for info, but they didn't deign to even email back to tell me to go fly a kite (as we Yanks like to say).
I also emailed them but this is the response I got:
Image

I would also be curious to know what Rev everyones motors are. According to the guy I buy my drive units from, Rev Q and later has a different seal which was replaced by tesla under warranty when the drive units failed in cars. This is one Rev Q that I was using and it has this red seal, and the shaft is pitted, I swapped in another motor and am going to fix this one before it causes issues.
Image
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This is another Rev Q, the label is a little different, the seal is different, and the shaft has this sharp lip on it.

Image
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Not sure how useful this information is but I figured I would capture it here
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Vsevolod »

johu: redacted excessive quote - please quote selectively

Is the red seal original or refurbished? And have you tried following the qr code on it?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by TastyGuac »

While I'm not building a custom car, this thread has been an incredible help for me. So I figure I'd chime in with my experience. I picked up a lightly wrecked 2014 Model S 85 recently and immediately noticed some "bucking" at very low speed. Pulled the speed sensor and it was similarly wet and rusty. At least the sealing surface of the rotor was in good shape - similar to what Johan's looked like.

Image
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Upon removing the cover, a LOT of brown nasty water came out. It was obvious now that there was rust and coolant material building up between the rotor and housing which was seizing the rotor at low speeds. The rotor did NOT want to come out. It was almost rusted in place. This bearing is a little rough but has not completely failed. Seems coolant has washed all of the grease out of it.

Image
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The rotor teeth are in great shape and the rear bearing is still good. Cleaned everything up as best as I can - I'll be using one of the Cheming triple lip seals and SKF BB1-3793 bearings. They came from Ukraine via eBay - we shall see if they appear genuine - I'll contact SKF once they arrive and see if they are authentic.

Lucky for me - the inverter was pretty clean. One or two drops of fresh coolant. No brown rusty water.

Image
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When the bearings and seal arrive, I'll report back.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by TastyGuac »

Speaking of seals, have any of you seen these? Seems like Tesla themselves have been trying these multi-lip seal designs. The bearings and new seals I bought on eBay came from Kiev, Ukraine where this shop seems to be too.

https://stock-tesla.com/en/index.php?ro ... t_id=21963
https://stock-tesla.com/en/oil-seal-30- ... 2713-02-d
https://stock-tesla.com/en/oil-seal-30- ... 713-02-d-1
https://stock-tesla.com/en/oil-seal-30- ... 06606-10-t
https://stock-tesla.com/en/oil-seal3055 ... 06606-10-t
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

Skudak wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:13 am Email from Electrified Garage: "Sorry we haven't gotten into rebuilding drive units they're typically too far gone by the time we see them."
That is the problem: Most Tesla drive unit owners are not aware that you have to periodically check the speed sensor for coolant leaks. QC Charge is pretty active on forums and social media to raise awareness. They still seem to have plenty of work, despite plenty of owners not knowing.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

TastyGuac wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:15 pm The rotor did NOT want to come out.
How did you get the rotor out? Did you open the gearbox, remove gear shafts, and hammered the spline end? Did you soak the rotor in rust remover of so?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Johan »

TastyGuac wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:19 pm Speaking of seals, have any of you seen these? Seems like Tesla themselves have been trying these multi-lip seal designs. The bearings and new seals I bought on eBay came from Kiev, Ukraine where this shop seems to be too.
I logged into the official Tesla Parts Catalog and those seals are not listed, not even mentioned as "restricted". If really manufactured in the USA, logistically, I would expect them to be available here (in California) too. Also I have never seen that seal with "TESLA" printed/lasered on it come out of a drive unit. But who knows, maybe Elon wants to help a nation in need. But remember that counterfeitting is a big problem. But maybe the seals from UA actually work fine, who knows?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by TastyGuac »

Johan wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
TastyGuac wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:15 pm The rotor did NOT want to come out.
How did you get the rotor out? Did you open the gearbox, remove gear shafts, and hammered the spline end? Did you soak the rotor in rust remover of so?
I sprayed some contact cleaner in-between the rotor and housing in a few spots. There is a small lip on the rotor that the bearing bottoms out on. I was able to wedge a pickle fork on this lip and pry outward on the rotor using the motor housing as a pivot. A few hits with a hammer broke it free from the rust. Definitely left some marks on the rotor, but I don't think its in a place that matters for its function.
Skudak
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:04 pm

Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by Skudak »

Vsevolod wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:10 pm johu: redacted excessive quote - please quote selectively

Is the red seal original or refurbished? And have you tried following the qr code on it?
I appears to be original, I haven't tried to scan it, that part # is an internal tesla part # so I'm sure the QR code will be similar
TastyGuac wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:19 pm Speaking of seals, have any of you seen these? Seems like Tesla themselves have been trying these multi-lip seal designs. The bearings and new seals I bought on eBay came from Kiev, Ukraine where this shop seems to be too.
Which one did you order? Did it come in the manufacturers box with a part #? I have been eyeing these two. Both ship from Ukraine but different sellers and different cities

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255414332627?h ... Sw06dh~sJH
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363912238070?h ... Swg0Bi1C5k
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