Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Topics concerning the Tesla front and rear drive unit drop-in board
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

Too much play? 6207 C3 bearing 35mm ID 72mm OD 17mm wide. Long moment arm with the primary shaft fitted of course.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/z2yhPZ5FpXc5bKh3A

Probably should just change since gearbox open? Need a blind bearing puller. FAG 6207 C3 ~$25.

Vertical (12/6 o'clock) radial play seems worse than horizontal (9/3 o'clock) radial play for some reason.. hmmm.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

Hmmm, I'm disappointed; my expensive (like $500 new/$350 for mine) Snap-On CG40CB blind bearing puller set, which has actually been expanded upward a bit, currently only handles 1/4" thru 1-1/4"; 35mm is almost exactly 1-3/8", which requires one more collet that I don't have (and which is apparently unavailable in easy-for-me supply chains).

However, Snap-On-level tools aren't required; the Motion Pro is $38 and its poor stars rating is due to the ad's photos having showed for years a set rather than a single collet; nobody has complained in the ratings about a deficiency in the collet itself.

You'll need a slide-hammer to go with it. Unfortunately, it's reported to not use the industry-standard 5/8"-11 thread. OK, maybe this tool wouldn't be a good choice. I'm just bummed I can't lend you my set and get hero points.

---

It's an aluminum casting, so another method I've used would be to oven the case half to, say, 350°F for 20 mins., then remove, suspend over a pair of blocks, and squirt "canned air" at the bearing with the can inverted, putting the cold liquid on the bearing. It'll shrink fast and sometimes the bearing will fall right out. Tapping the other side (ie the "top" or "outside" of the inverted casting) can help. It's cheap.

In the field, we would sometimes weld a 5/8"-11 nut to the inner race any way we could, and use a slide hammer. We're replacing the bearing, so no loss by welding to the inner race. The issue with that is you'd need to weld the nut to a piece of plate, then weld that to the race, or you'd be pulling off to the side and it would likely jam.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

asavage wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:29 am Your cut/paste of the 6207 dims above has ID/OD scrambled, and the photos.google link is a 404 from my end (tried several times).
Thanks fixed both and added little note for directional radial play. Let me know how bad you guys think the play is.

Probably can't use oven heat trick as inverter is attached to the casing. Definitely don't want to disassemble that if I don't have to haha. Probably just get a cheap puller that can grab 35mm hole.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

howardc64 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:55 am Too much play? 6207 C3 bearing 35mm ID 72mm OD 17mm wide. Long moment arm with the primary shaft fitted of course.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/z2yhPZ5FpXc5bKh3A

Probably should just change since gearbox open? Need a blind bearing puller. FAG 6207 C3 ~$25.

Vertical (12/6 o'clock) radial play seems worse than horizontal (9/3 o'clock) radial play for some reason.. hmmm.
Standard ball bearings in general don't control angular or thrust loads well, so "testing" via the method you use in the video doesn't reveal how much wear the bearing has experienced, because the bearing assy. is not designed to control motion in that direction, and the tracks in the races that have wear you should be concerned with are not in play when you are testing with a cantilever load on a single bearing.

I mean, sure, if the bearing is really toast, the balls are bad and that will show in that test, but race wear will not, because testing like that puts the load on the sides of the race, which is not where a typical ball bearing would be be loaded in a well-engineered design.

There are ball bearing designs that have more axial control that standard, and even some with limited thrust control (think angular contact ball bearings in bicycle steering tubes, for example), and this bearing might be a deep groove style for some axial/thrust load control due to the helical gear involved, but measuring the movement that way will be inconclusive unless you've got more experience than most people have. It's not really even a "rough test", and I wouldn't place much stock in the results.

The bearing is cheap, your labor is not, and I'll be replacing it in my box, when the time comes.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

asavage wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:38 pm Standard ball bearings in general don't control angular or thrust loads well, so "testing" via the method you use in the video doesn't reveal how much wear the bearing has experienced, because the bearing assy. is not designed to control motion in that direction, and the tracks in the races that have wear you should be concerned with are not in play when you are testing with a cantilever load on a single bearing.

I mean, sure, if the bearing is really toast, the balls are bad and that will show in that test, but race wear will not, because testing like that puts the load on the sides of the race, which is not where a typical ball bearing would be be loaded in a well-engineered design.

There are ball bearing designs that have more axial control that standard, and even some with limited thrust control (think angular contact ball bearings in bicycle steering tubes, for example), and this bearing might be a deep groove style for some axial/thrust load control due to the helical gear involved, but measuring the movement that way will be inconclusive unless you've got more experience than most people have. It's not really even a "rough test", and I wouldn't place much stock in the results.

The bearing is cheap, your labor is not, and I'll be replacing it in my box, when the time comes.
Thanks very helpful explanation. Used magnifying eye wear to peak at the inside raceway surface, smooth and no damage pattern (true on both rotor and all gearbox bearings although quite hard to see ones with metal cages). What looks not smooth is just oil film peaks after the ball just rolled over the surface and smooths out quickly. Only damage is the streaks on shaft mating surface ( viewtopic.php?p=46067#p46067 ) which seems to be in everyone's rebuild pics/vids.

Good idea to replace anyways since gearbox is open so will search for source and blind puller. Thanks! And too bad your puller is missing 1 size haha... would have been a nice drive to Oak Harbor but obviously not in Tesla haha.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

dzolotnyuk wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:03 pm thought I would add one more 2013 tesla model SP85 to the list of dead rear drive units my car has 137K miles when seal leaked again on a unit that was replaced some time in april of 2019 under warranty when car had 65K miles by the way my unit that failed is an R version had a single lip seal. I have been looking for a solution lake everybody else. I should be receiving a seal form https://ahpseals.com/product/sb20/ $175 is what i paid for it. it was about 3 weeks wait time now i need to machine an adapter plate hopefully some time later this week or next week. I am not an engineer of any kind just desperate to get my car back on the road so i thought i would get an opinion of a professional on the forum about that seal if it fail i will be modifying coolant manifold and adding water to oil cooler
Sorry to hear, 2013s (like mine) came off warranty last year. If LDU already had some miles, probably takes just about a year (+10-15k miles added) to start getting leak symptoms and on customer dime this time :(

Seal you found is very interesting. Completely different than the single/triple lipped ones most often discussed. Spec says for high water based application and even dry running. o-ring mount rather than pressed in steel cage is interesting difference as well. Spec says surface speed is 50m/s. According to calculator below, thats 3x margin over 30mm shaft @ 10k RPM (~3100ft/min = ~50ft/s = ~15m/s) I'm no seal expert so perhaps others with more experience can chime in if this calculation is correct.

https://www.blocklayer.com/surface-speedeng

One possible worry is the mounting since its not press fitted steel cage. Looks like its just OD surface of the seal + o-ring mounted against the bore. Don't know if any force that will "walk" the seal into the into the reluctor chamber. Shaft also has a lip. Might take a small ruler to measure and see. Wait for more experienced people to chime in. My expertise is googlefu and not seals haha.
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On a positive note, people have tried various seals and seemingly all with about the same result (20-40k miles? before leak) if the shaft's seal mating surface is properly prepared. Here is a huge seal design reference guide to consult

https://www.espint.com/Engineering/Tech ... nce-Guides

One note on machining an adapter plate is the challenge to remove on next leak. Nathan's rebuild recently got another leak at 40k mi and considering how to remove his adapter plate (Got info from TMC PM exchange) Maybe not hard but just another consideration. I guess can always tap 2 bolt holes and push it out like Toyota's solution for rusted brake rotors if bolt hit solid aluminum underneath.

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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by dzolotnyuk »

Plan is to run in on a speedy sleeve I did get two of then 30x52x7 ordered smaller on purpose so there is enough clearance to make a press fit case for it
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

Spoke with @dzolotnyuk and he has quite an interesting different failure pattern. Here is a quick summary

- Rev R LDU. No speed sensor chamber vent hole (Also just heard a Rev Q without hole as well)
- Car stopped, stator winding isolating failure. Had to dry it out. Megohmmeter ( https://www.testequipmentdepot.com/fluk ... s/1507.htm ) to confirm no more isolation failure. Inverter side completely clean

This seems to be a really interesting failure pattern without the vent hole. This is just conjecture looking at the failure pattern. Aerosolized coolant by the reluctor agitator can't get into the motor without speed sensor vent hole. So it goes through the bearing and condenses. Rotor has no agitator so coolant sits on the motor side soaking on the winding varnish without ever making it to the inverter side.
IMG_7188.jpeg
Here is Tesla's service note on winding isolation fault
June 2013 Report.pdf
(974.94 KiB) Downloaded 170 times

Drying Out The Stator Windings

@dzolotnyuk provided these pics. He said it took a week and coolant kept on oozing out of all the cavities in the stuff windings are entombed in.
IMG_7127.jpg
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Here is another attempt to dry out the stator



Youtube guys also demonstrated how to create spark on a short with megohmmeter



In really bad case, the material entombing the windings are deteriorated. Not sure if this is repairable


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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

Yes, through the bearing must be the coolant path in that case.

If enough coolant made it though, it'd get to the inverter -- there's that huge tunnel!
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

asavage wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:27 am Yes, through the bearing must be the coolant path in that case.

If enough coolant made it though, it'd get to the inverter -- there's that huge tunnel!
Haha yeah, my joke to @dzolotnyuk is I had the speed sensor vent hole so my coolant leak was split between the inverter and motor and didn't trash either one...

He also tapped a drain in the tunnel (need to take a closer look), bottom of motor cavity end plate and reluctor chamber of course.

=====

Perhaps e-tron was on the right path. No use trying to stop every last drop of coolant in this application. Just get it out and not accumulate where it shouldn't be. Don't know why they failed, perhaps more complex design. Diagram seem to show they had seal on both ends of the rotor shaft at least in one of the motor design.

Reluctor chamber drain is a huge step. Maybe thats good enough already? The leak is only minute and if always vacated except for few drops that hadn't yet been gravity assisted to vacate, then whats the harm? Need to also consider condensation all around walls of the chamber so enough coolant remains behind?

Also been wondering what kind of air flow pattern reluctor wheel itself generates in the forward driving direction. Can it act as an air pump to help get any coolant/aerosol out? What if tapped 2 holes with 1 for air intake (with a filter) and one for exit along with some F1 aerodynamics strategically placed inside chamber? Anyone with aerodynamics background and maybe run some computational fluid dynamics analysis?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

Info from a Rev R LDU. Rotor bearing = KOYO 6007RU. Balls are non conductive. Called KOYO North America tech support and got great info

- 3NC6007RU (3NC = hybrid ceramic balls, RU = non-contact seal, just like the SKF)
- Unfortunately seems unavailable here in the US according to KOYO customer support on a follow up call.

Pic below shows only 6007RU PN printed on the seal. This RevR was installed in 2019. Just a guess but maybe Koyo just reused 6007RU labeled seal?

doc on KOYO ceramic bearing details

https://koyo.jtekt.co.jp/en/support/cat ... 1013ex.pdf
http://www.industrialbearings.com.au/up ... 588536.pdf

KOYO tech also said NTN also provides ceramic bearings. Google shows thats a fairly recent development

https://ntnamericas.com/ntn-releases-ce ... lications/

Called NTN North American tech support and only bearing available was a contact seal 6007 ceramic bearing with metal cage that was never imported into US. See website link in signature for more info.

KOYO tech also said SKF is in charge of the bearings standardization effort and probably gains advantage over competitors periodically. Ceramic bearings is a advanced new tech and certainly expensive leading to high profit potentials. From Tesla, we see SKF -> KOYO and maybe NTN is next haha.

Also inquired about the VC4521 code on the 6207/6208 SKF bearings from another distributor ( https://maedlernorthamerica.com/ > 100 old German based international company) and KOYO tech support. Both said its a heat resistance code. Standard SKF deep groove ball bearings are rated 120C min so VC4521 might be special version with higher temp.

https://www.skf.com/us/products/rolling ... ure-limits

People are using standard 6207/6208 C3s since can't find the VC4521 version and I guess we don't have very long longevity info on this substitute.

Also described the coolant seal leak problem to the helpful KOYO tech. He recognized the challenging application. Mentioned fluted seals (pump aid from prior posts) said isolators are used in the industry if really want to keep things out. Gave National Oil name as a provider (Timken owned). Here is a info link

https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploa ... _10093.pdf

Isolators kind of look like e-tron's solution?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

I took apart mine yesterday. Bought the car in the beginning of this year, checked the speed sensor and noticed some condensation. Had no time to do the repair until now, so kept driving. Still drives fine without bearing noice or errors.

The drive unit is a rev Q. Replaced under warranty in 2017 at 70.000 km. The car has 145.000 km at the moment.

Although i've driven at least 10 months with a small leak, the DU is perfectly clean and dry (besides some coolant drops around the seal.

The seal surface on the rotor is pretty rough. Maybe it wasn't in great condition when the DU was remanufactured?

The grease of the rotor bearings is at the outside of the seals. They are perfectly clean and dry, so it's not washed out by coolant.

I'm going to use a speedi sleeve, Ceimin seal and new bearings. Potting the phase wire tunnel and add a few vents and drains.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

WimV wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:36 am Although i've driven at least 10 months with a small leak, the DU is perfectly clean and dry (besides some coolant drops around the seal.
Congrats, not much collateral damage which suggest mine was leaking for at least that long if not from the very beginning of the reman install...
WimV wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:36 am I'm going to use a speedi sleeve, Ceimin seal and new bearings. Potting the phase wire tunnel and add a few vents and drains.
On speedi sleeve + Ceimin seal combo, did you see Boxster EV's leak experience and Johan's analysis? The main lip sealing off the coolant rides on the end of the speedi sleeve and probably compromised it. The sleeve is not wide enough for that seal.

viewtopic.php?p=42967#p42967

On bearing, will follow with a post as I'm looking for match and USA source now.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

howardc64 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:07 am On speedi sleeve + Ceimin seal combo, did you see Boxster EV's leak experience and Johan's analysis? The main lip sealing off the coolant rides on the end of the speedi sleeve and probably compromised it. The sleeve is not wide enough for that seal.

viewtopic.php?p=42967#p42967

On bearing, will follow with a post as I'm looking for match and USA source now.
I'm going to try to install 2 speedi sleeves.

I bought the bearings here:
https://shop.eriks.be/nl/lagers-kogella ... -24002310/
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

A note on the ceramic bearings

Rotor's Ceramic Bearings

These are 6007 silicon nitride bearings. US SKF distributor sells it for $400-$500+ each. Here is the seal link.

https://www.skf.com/us/products/rolling ... %2FHC5C3WT

It appears to be a perfect match for the SKF in our LDU. Was used in this rebuild

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ix.145078/

SKF doesn't list any bearing offerings with BB1-* PN stamped on our bearings. Maybe custom PN for Tesla?

As noted 2 posts ago, A KOYO ceramic bearing was found on an Rev R LDU.

Counterfeits and Ceramic Balls

Heard a lot about counterfeits so SKF/KOYO authorized distributors are desirable if seeking genuine. But what about all these much cheaper sources?

Researched ceramic balls. How they are constructed and manufacturing sources. Ceramic balls are made with a sinter process (ceramic particles heated at high temps and kind of merge together) I think then requires long periods of polishing to get it into tight spherical shape (probably the reason for the cost, like polishing a telescope mirror?) This is probably where cheaper ceramic balls can cut corners. Looks like a lot out of China.

Here is a video on sintering process of ceramic parts. Completely different than metal and plastic



Here is a test of cheap Chinese ceramic balls vs high quality ones




I have no idea how well lower quality or counterfeits work and how long they last. Just noting they exist
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

A few photo's of the rotor before and after cleaning and the seal.

The rotor has way to much wear to use without sleeve or welding and grinding.

The seal is a tripple lip. It's disintegrated pretty bad. Maybe the rotor already was rough when they rebuild it? I'm suprised there wasn't more leaked coolant.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

WimV wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:53 am The seal is a tripple lip. It's disintegrated pretty bad.
Which lips were most damaged?

Theoretically the lip in contact with coolant will run a flim of coolant between lip and shaft for hydrodynamic effect to avoid burning up the seal. Since the other 2 lips has no hydrodynamic effect from coolant, I wonder how they survive?
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

howardc64 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:16 am Which lips were most damaged?

Theoretically the lip in contact with coolant will run a flim of coolant between lip and shaft for hydrodynamic effect to avoid burning up the seal. Since the other 2 lips has no hydrodynamic effect from coolant, I wonder how they survive?
I'll try to make a good picture, but all of them looked pretty bad.

Fresh bearings and two sleeves fitted. The sleeve is grinded flush with the rotor.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

WimV wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:33 am I'll try to make a good picture, but all of them looked pretty bad.

Fresh bearings and two sleeves fitted. The sleeve is grinded flush with the rotor.

The phase tunnel is potted.
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by howardc64 »

WimV wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:36 am The drive unit is a rev Q. Replaced under warranty in 2017 at 70.000 km.
Forgot to ask if LDU is remanufactured? Will say RMN on the sticker. Curious if non reman is a potential reason for triple lipped seal. but maybe just different stock of seals from different suppliers getting used up in LDU manufacturing / reman. Maybe even in different locations internationally.

Here is mine
IMG_2808.jpeg
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

Yes, remanufactered
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

howardc64 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:16 am Which lips were most damaged?

Theoretically the lip in contact with coolant will run a flim of coolant between lip and shaft for hydrodynamic effect to avoid burning up the seal. Since the other 2 lips has no hydrodynamic effect from coolant, I wonder how they survive?
I just removed the seal. Started cutting it, but then I noticed the steel was pretty thic. Tapped two holes in it and pushed it out with two bolts. Works perfectly, seal is removed within 5 minutes.

The lip at coolant side was, as expected in best shape. Other two rings were very worn and had a lot of black sticky mess on them (probably ptfe dust mixed with coolant).
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

Plugged the hole between reluctor wheel and stator, added vents and drains to reluctor housing and stator housing.

Now cleaning everything and reassemble (and adding a drain to inverter housing).
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by asavage »

Good work, thanks for the pics.
Al Savage
2014 RAV4 EV
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WimV
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Re: Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU) Motor Teardown and maintenance

Post by WimV »

I used a wiring harness sleeve to pull the temp sensor wires through the tunnel, worked very well.

The motor is assembled. Going to put it in the subframe now.

How do you guys purge the cooling system? Is it necessary to fill the motor before connecting the cooling system in the car? Or will it purge itself while driving?
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