I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What? Topic is solved

Discussion about components from Ampera/Bolt and the PSA group which owns Opel these days
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

so I started to muddle a bit with the USB CAN Analyzer hardware v7.10, software v7.20 and or v8.00, and I think this product got some bad AMAZON reviews because it did not come with "media" aka software, but since it's not 1997 any more, I sorta expected it, after all if it had, the software would have been out dated by the time it arrived

so I literally GOOGLED "USB CAN Analyzer software" and I think the first hit I got was from a company called Seeed (yes with not one, not two, but three "e" s ... AWESOME, right then and there I knew these guys don't mess around, ha ha
Seeed USB CAN Software.jpg

scrolling down I came to the LEARN AND DOCUMENTS section and as much as I wanted to make fun of their English translations I quickly reminded myself how would I do if I had to present a website in Chinese?

At this point I deployed my tried and true ShotGun Approach aka the (SGA) where I click and double click on anything and everything and install everything until I get something to work, ha ha
Seeed USB CAN Drivers.jpg
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

well I must have done something right, cause just a few long hours later and we were CANing

The UI is a single page, a single screen if you will with everything right then and there, I want to hate it but I can't, it's sort of that Craigslist nothing fancy just the meat and potatoes right in your face presentation, and don't you dare try to Maximize that window (what did you think they had an unlimited development budget or something? ha ha)
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IMG_9327.JPG

I'll be honest with you, the COM bps through me for a loop, I kept looking for 500kbps in that pull down knowing that my CAN likes that speed (yes I'm an idiot and that's an entirely different settings further down below, but I didn't realize that at first) so just leave this at the default of 2 with a bunch of zeros after it, 2 million I think
Seeed USB CAN COM bps.jpg


actual Chevy Volt first gen DC-DC converter CAN traffic coming through
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and a bit more detail

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274236575_427578702473589_8191753114399088162_n.png (11.16 KiB) Viewed 3608 times



USB-CAN Analyzer v7.10
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

so at this point we may be saying to ourselves whoopty doo what did we accomplish? we connected some knock off cheap Chinese dongle to the DC-DC converter and it's spewing stuff we can't even comprehend - yup, sounds about right

so let's review, the CAN Bus Analyzer is capable of both receiving and sending CAN messages, sure so far we are just clapping with one hand by only receiving aka displaying stuff but that's ok (the Vatican wasn't vacuumed in one day!)

by being able to receive/display CAN messages we confirmed that we know how to power on the converter, and here is an interesting observation:
  • we get CAN messages with only "Enable" Pin #5 connected
  • we get CAN messages with only "Accessory" Pin #10 connected
  • and we get CAN messages with both Pins #5 and #10 connected (this I get)
I will work on fingering out how to send the appropriate CAN messages next, I hope Arber Kramar sees this and provides a little bit of hand holding as although he has documented the steps on this LEAF DRIVE BLOG Ampera/Volt DCDC or APU I am still a bit fuzzy on how to do it
  • CAN ID is 01 D4
  • Msg is A0 B2 in 100ms period
  • A0 is signal to star, to signal DCDC off just send 00 instead A0
  • B2 means 14Vdc output and likewise AF means 13,8Vdc
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

reserved for the USB to CAN Analyzer Summary & Review before we move on to our next gizmo
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

And on to our second CAN Bus analyzer, which we hope to compare and contrast and evaluate and rate, this one comes highly recommended from AMAZON's reviews, lol

Company: Chuangxin Technology
Model: CANAnalyst-II (clone ?)
Source: AMAZON
reviews.jpg
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

so my initial impression: very nice unit, much bigger than I expected, has two CAN channels, Bonus!

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USB CAN TOOL Setup.jpg

may need to brush up on my Chinese though
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the Software includes drivers and is a much nicer UI (one you can actually maximize the window to fit your entire monitor screen, a pet peeve of mine)
Software UI.jpg
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by mjc506 »

Might be worth checking if SavvyCAN works with either of those - quite a handy bit of software.
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

mjc506 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:20 pm Might be worth checking if SavvyCAN works with either of those - quite a handy bit of software.
yes thanks it's on my list, but the EVTV online store page is gone, I swear it was just there couple days ago, and I wanted to include both the ESP32 CANDue and their dual channel CAN kit

also SavvyCAN (which I hope to find is the best tool) requires Arduino IDE knowledge and a good battle with it's Libraries, ha ha so I was saving it for last

I appreciate your input

this is a single board solution based on the Arduino DUE circuit board and microcontroller
annotatedEVTVDue5_medium.jpg
EVTVDue.pdf
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this is another single board solution based on the Arduino DUE circuit board and microcontroller with dual CAN Bus ports
dual.jpg



this is a two board solution, the board below, called a shield is an adapter board that requires the microcontroller aka driver board below it, this setup has two CAN Bus channels
CANDue2.2TOPsmall_medium.jpg
MyArduinoDue_medium.jpg
CAN Due2.2 User Manual.pdf
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by arber333 »

Gregski wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:31 am I hope Arber Kramar sees this and provides a little bit of hand holding as although he has documented the steps on this LEAF DRIVE BLOG Ampera/Volt DCDC or APU
Yes it is really simple 8-) .
I recommend you go with CANALYST II because it is much better interface. Install driver and software first then try to observe a CAN device you know it works. Setup correct kbps and LED on the device will start blinking to let you know you have incomming traffic.
You can also set CAN bridge from CAN1 to CAN2. This is very usefull if you need to listen to several devices but both CAN are at different speeds :).

Charger:
First you need to connect it to DC power! Then you need to provide AC as well. Only then i would go for CAN control.
You need to send TWO messages on the same CAN bus. The first is only a heartbeat to keep certain charger function alive and the other is power command.

ID 0x30E with only one byte:
0x01 Turn on aux12vdc
0x02 Turn on HV Charging
0x03 Turn on aux12vdc and turn on HV Charging
So if you ask me i would just send this message in 30ms interval:
0x30E 0x03

Second message is sent in 500ms interval; 4 bytes in total
ID 0x304 0x40 0xA0 0x03 0x20 this means charge at 8amps up to 400.0vdc
Charging at 10A and to 410V
ID 0x304 0x40 0xC8 0x03 0x34

DCDC
Again i would forst connect DC side. Then you need to connect 12V battery.
Command for DCDC or APM is even easier. Send two bytes:
ID 0x1D4 A0 B2 in 100ms period
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

arber333 wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:29 pm DCDC
Again i would forst connect DC side. Then you need to connect 12V battery.
Command for DCDC or APM is even easier. Send two bytes:
ID 0x1D4 A0 B2 in 100ms period
Thank you so much, quick question, can we connect directly to the 350 volt battery pack or do we need a fuse of some sorts between it and the DC-DC converter? I just have an Anderson connector on it at the moment for testing.
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by mjc506 »

I would connect through a fuse (fuse closest to battery ideally I guess) but for testing a filament light bulb might be better - you get a good idea of current as well as protecting against shorts without blowing HV fuses.

You don't need the 'special' EVTV hardware to use Savvycan - a normal due/ESP/teensy plus a CAN transciever (or two) will work just as well - there's a page on the wiki somewhere... Here's the Due page: https://openinverter.org/wiki/CAN_bus_with_Arduino_Due the others are pretty similar.
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 1:01 pm You don't need the 'special' EVTV hardware to use Savvycan - a normal due/ESP/teensy plus a CAN transciever (or two) will work just as well - there's a page on the wiki somewhere... Here's the Due page: https://openinverter.org/wiki/CAN_bus_with_Arduino_Due the others are pretty similar.
1,000 thanks, appreciate the detailed information, and I just happen to have a ton of these gizmos, but how about an Arduino UNO? I ask because they make a ton of CAN Bus shields for those, but I have yet to see a proper one for a DUE and by proper I mean the kind that fit nicely on top with all them pins
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and this is the same shield atop of an Arduino DUO (and I tested it and it works) note unlike the clone UNO above I opted for a name brand DUE below, I strongly recommend doing so if you are a beginner and just getting stared with Arduino

IMG_7190.JPG
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and here is my Teensy setup, hopefully you find this useful and are getting some ideas
IMG_7609.JPG
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by mjc506 »

The teensy will definitely work (https://github.com/collin80/TeensyRET) but you might need a couple more dupont cables for CAN high and low :-)

Not so sure about the CAN shield. The Due and Teensy both have CAN peripherals (but need the transceivers for level shifting mostly), but the Uno doesn't, so the CAN shield will most likely have some extra hardware that the Due and Teensy don't need (and that Savvycan/firmware) isn't expecting. There'll be a way of making it work, but that's extra layers of troubleshooting you probably don't want to have to deal with starting off :-)

Ah, here's the Teensy on the wiki: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Getting_C ... Teensy_3.6 (I know yours is a 3.2, but it still has CAN0. May need to adjust TeensyRET to not try opening CAN1?)

EDIT - no, CAN1 is enabled by a setting somewhere, looks like there's a config menu accessible over serial, or perhaps through Savvycan itself
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:01 pm The teensy will definitely work (https://github.com/collin80/TeensyRET) but you might need a couple more dupont cables for CAN high and low :-)
dang it, posted the wrong photo lOl
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by mjc506 »

That should work nicely :)
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

continuing with the 3rd half of our retail CAN Bus Analyzer evaluations we have the most expensive product yet the MICROCHIP APGDT002 begging the question is it really twice as good as pink one, and four times as good as the white one? you decide

Company: MICROCHIP
Model: APGDT002
Price: $170
Source: AMAZON

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think outside the box...
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

I'll be honest with you, this was the first product out of the three to arrive so I connected and played with it first, but I wanted to review them from cheapest to [ahem] not cheapest

initial impression, this thing is nice, has that quality feel to it, it looks like it means business

MANUAL: the super nice thing about this unit is that it comes with a manual, and it's in ENGLISH:
CAN-Bus-Analyzer-Users-Guide-DS50001848C.pdf
(907.26 KiB) Downloaded 150 times

then only issue I had with it, and I will post a pic of what I am talking about, is the 4 pin screw connector port to the left of the 6 pin one, the manual never talks about it, it does go pin by pin for the 6 pin one as well as the 9 pin DB9 connector though

SOFTWARE: it appears this product has two different types of software that can work with it (though it won't allow you to install both at the same time)
  • Microchip CAN BUS Analyzer v2.3
  • OptoLyzer Studio v1.8.1
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

Literally Nobody: "hey remember that wrong cable that you bought [on eBay for over $100 bucks cause you don't like money] for the first gen Chevy Volt converter, did you ever wonder what's inside that fused box plug?"

Me: "hold my beer"
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

"this part appears to be non serviceable, so I am going to take it apart anyway"
~ Professor John D. Kelly
~ WEBER STATE UNIVERSITY

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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

I know this thread is supposed to be about the DC-DC Converter but we have to show some love to it's fraternal twin the Charger as well, so once again I went out and took one for the team and bought this plugulator for it, I know nothing about this particular J1772 gitty up. I assume it's just a dime a dozen Level 1 charger that here in the Independent States it plugs into our 110/120 volt 15 amp wall outlets and makes you wait, or does the General pull some stunts with it? you let us know


actually bought on eBay but they shipped it in a used AMAZON box (just wanted to point that out)
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

mjc506 wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:01 pm The teensy will definitely work (https://github.com/collin80/TeensyRET) but you might need a couple more dupont cables for CAN high and low :-)

[...]

Ah, here's the Teensy on the wiki: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Getting_C ... Teensy_3.6 (I know yours is a 3.2, but it still has CAN0. May need to adjust TeensyRET to not try opening CAN1?)

EDIT - no, CAN1 is enabled by a setting somewhere, looks like there's a config menu accessible over serial, or perhaps through Savvycan itself
I think I am pretty close but getting some errors whilst trying to compile the TeensyRET sketch in Arduino, so I figure I would share as both a cry out for help and also to demonstrate to those who may attempt this and come across something similar

this is the reason why I left SaavyCAN on Teensy for last as this cake has the most layers of complexity


=====================================================================================================

Arduino: 1.8.16 (Windows 10), TD: 1.55, Board: "Teensy 3.2 / 3.1, Serial, 96 MHz (overclock), Faster, US English"

In file included from C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.h:32:0,

from C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:32:

Logger.h:58: error: 'File' does not name a type

static File fileRef; //file we're logging to

^

TeensyRET:50: error: 'SdFatSdio' does not name a type

SdFatSdio sd;

^

TeensyRET: In function 'void setup()':

TeensyRET:163: error: 'sd' was not declared in this scope

if (!sd.begin())

^

TeensyRET:227: [color=#FF0000]error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope[/color]

Can1.begin(settings.CAN1Speed);

^

TeensyRET: In function 'void setPromiscuousMode()':

TeensyRET:275: warning: unused variable 'filter'

int filter;

^

TeensyRET: In function 'void sendFrameToUSB(CAN_message_t&, int)':

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:318:42: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

sprintf((char *)buff, "%08x", frame.id);

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:318:42: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:324:42: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

sprintf((char *)buff, "%03x", frame.id);

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:324:42: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

TeensyRET: In function 'void sendFrameToFile(CAN_message_t&, int)':

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:410:93: warning: format '%i' expects argument of type 'int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

sprintf((char *)buff, "%i,%x,%i,%i,%i", millis(), frame.id, frame.ext, whichBus, frame.len);

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:410:93: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 4 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:410:93: warning: format '%i' expects argument of type 'int', but argument 3 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:410:93: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 4 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:426:74: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 5 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

sprintf((char *)buff, "%f R%i %x", millis() / 1000.0f, idBits, frame.id);

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\TeensyRET.ino:426:74: warning: format '%x' expects argument of type 'unsigned int', but argument 5 has type 'uint32_t {aka long unsigned int}' [-Wformat=]

TeensyRET:388: warning: unused variable 'temp'

uint8_t temp;

^

TeensyRET: In function 'void sendDigToggleMsg()':

TeensyRET:478: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.write(frame);

^

TeensyRET: In function 'void loop()':

TeensyRET:525: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

if (Can1.available()) {

^

TeensyRET:742: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

if (out_bus == 1) Can1.write(build_out_frame);

^

TeensyRET:850: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.setListenOnly(true);

^

TeensyRET:855: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.setListenOnly(false);

^

TeensyRET:864: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.begin(build_int);

^

TeensyRET:877: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.end();

^

TeensyRET:570: warning: enumeration value 'GET_DIG_INPUTS' not handled in switch

switch (state) {

^

TeensyRET:570: warning: enumeration value 'GET_ANALOG_INPUTS' not handled in switch

TeensyRET:570: warning: enumeration value 'GET_CANBUS_PARAMS' not handled in switch

TeensyRET:570: warning: enumeration value 'GET_DEVICE_INFO' not handled in switch

TeensyRET:496: warning: unused variable 'loops'

static int loops = 0;

^

TeensyRET:506: warning: unused variable 'temp16'

uint16_t temp16;

^

TeensyRET:507: warning: unused variable 'markToggle'

static bool markToggle = false;

^

In file included from C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.h:32:0,

from C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.cpp:29:

Logger.h:58: error: 'File' does not name a type

static File fileRef; //file we're logging to

^

In file included from C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp:27:0:

Logger.h:58: error: 'File' does not name a type

static File fileRef; //file we're logging to

^

Logger.cpp:35: error: 'File' does not name a type

File Logger::fileRef; //file we're logging to

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp: In static member function 'static void Logger::flushFileBuff()':

Logger.cpp:130: error: 'fileRef' was not declared in this scope

if (fileRef.write(filebuffer, fileBuffWritePtr) != fileBuffWritePtr) {

^

Logger.cpp:136: error: 'fileRef' was not declared in this scope

fileRef.sync(); //needed in order to update the file if you aren't closing it ever

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.cpp: In member function 'void SerialConsole::handleLawicelCmd()':

SerialConsole.cpp:150: warning: unused variable 'buff'

char buff[80];

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp: In static member function 'static boolean Logger::setupFile()':

Logger.cpp:145: error: 'fileRef' was not declared in this scope

if (!fileRef.isOpen()) //file not open. Try to open it.

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.cpp: In member function 'void SerialConsole::handleConfigCmd()':

SerialConsole.cpp:299: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.begin(settings.CAN1Speed);

^

SerialConsole.cpp:307: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.end();

^

SerialConsole.cpp:326: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.begin(settings.CAN1Speed);

^

SerialConsole.cpp:354: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.setListenOnly(true);

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp: In static member function 'static void Logger::file(const char*, ...)':

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp:244:43: warning: conversion lacks type at end of format [-Wformat=]

sprintf(buff, "%l", va_arg(args, long));

^

SerialConsole.cpp:358: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

Can1.setListenOnly(false);

^

Logger.cpp:244: warning: too many arguments for format

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp:244:43: warning: conversion lacks type at end of format [-Wformat=]

Logger.cpp:244: warning: too many arguments for format

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\Logger.cpp: In static member function 'static void Logger::log(Logger::LogLevel, const char*, va_list)':

Logger.cpp:360: warning: enumeration value 'Off' not handled in switch

switch (level) {

^

SerialConsole.cpp:415: error: 'Can1' was not declared in this scope

handleCANSend(Can1, newString);

^

SerialConsole.cpp:257: warning: unused variable 'whichEntry'

unsigned char whichEntry = '0';

^

C:\Users\j1901\Downloads\TeensyRET\SerialConsole.cpp: In member function 'void SerialConsole::handleShortCmd()':

SerialConsole.cpp:608: warning: unused variable 'val'

uint8_t val;

^

'File' does not name a type



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"I don't need to understand how it works, I just need to understand how to make it work!" ~ EV Greg
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mjc506
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by mjc506 »

I would be tempted to ignore all the warnings :)

Ah, yes, you don't have CAN1 on the smaller teensy. I'd go through the code and comment out everything referencing can1. You might get some more errors from those lines being commented? But shouldn't be tooooo hard to get rid of can1 stuff. Or it might be possible to tell Arduino that you're actually using a 3.6? They're the same micro, just the 3.2 doesn't have all the peripherals. Worth the few minutes to test?

I suspect the FILE and SD errors mean you need an SD card library. 'SDfat' I think...
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

mjc506 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:44 pm I would be tempted to ignore all the warnings :)

Ah, yes, you don't have CAN1 on the smaller teensy. I'd go through the code and comment out everything referencing can1. You might get some more errors from those lines being commented? But shouldn't be tooooo hard to get rid of can1 stuff. Or it might be possible to tell Arduino that you're actually using a 3.6? They're the same micro, just the 3.2 doesn't have all the peripherals. Worth the few minutes to test?

I suspect the FILE and SD errors mean you need an SD card library. 'SDfat' I think...
ah thank you so much, Array Math gets me every time, it's 0,1,2,3 etc... ha ha

I think I will just do the right thing, and throw money at it on the account of words such as: "A Teensy 3.6 is an ideal board for making a CAN-compatible device." on our Wiki, if they could maybe just moved that to the top of the page and made it bigger, oh wait....
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Re: I bought a Chevy Volt Gen1 DC-DC Converter - Now What?

Post by Gregski »

let the good times roll !

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folks I am not being rude, but this is exactly why I made this matrix
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"I don't need to understand how it works, I just need to understand how to make it work!" ~ EV Greg
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