GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

xp677 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 10:36 pm
catphish wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:15 pm
ggeter wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:03 pm May have answered my own question testing last night. This setting appears to be high gear. Good thing -- because the racket those solenoids make when I set them HIGH is not good....
It's well established that leaving all solenoids off is high ratio. The questions that remain in my mind are as follows:

1) Why is the transmission in high ratio when both solenoids are off? According to the available documentation, I'd expect the transmission to be in Neutral when both brakes are disengaged.

So that the car is still drivable in case of a failure of any part of the system.

2) Is the state of one of the solenoids inverted, so that the default OFF/OFF state is actually engaging one of them?

Not electrically, but you may be correct in that one brake is released with fluid pressure rather than engaged by it.

3) It's claimed that turning on both solenids select low ratio. However, again based on documentation, I'd expect this to be an invalid (and very unpleasant!) state. I believe people who have tried this say that is makes a nasty bang if you do it while the transmission is turning.

Try it and see. Somebody has to do it. Enough people have tried that there must be an answer by now.

4) What is the impact of turning on just just one solenid or the other?

No idea, try it on the bench.

5) Can we achieve a smooth gear change by engaging one at a time, with a short safety period where both are off, or perhaps switching from 0/0 to 1/1 via 0/1 or 1/0 (which would make sense if one is inverted)

Yes, probably. They may be modulated as well, who knows.
Answers in bold, sorry if they aren't helpful.

Just to put that age old question to bed....if you spin up MG2 without the oil pump running and with no solenoids plugged in at all, you'll get torque out at the high gear ratio. Anyone who disagrees can just try it out on the bench or in a vehicle.
Not my experience. MG2 spinning by itself with no oil pump provides no usable torque at drive shaft. High gear, yes, but brakes aren't engaged, so just slips. All you get is the sound of free spinning MG2. On the bench, output spins, but that's just friction. Must have oil pressure to move vehicle.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:03 am Not my experience. MG2 spinning by itself with no oil pump provides no usable torque at drive shaft. High gear, yes, but brakes aren't engaged, so just slips. All you get is the sound of free spinning MG2. On the bench, output spins, but that's just friction. Must have oil pressure to move vehicle.
Thanks, that's super interesting and much more in line with what I'd expect based on the diagrams! I'll find out for myself soon enough and will publish a more definitive set of results then.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

catphish wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:55 am
ggeter wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:03 am Not my experience. MG2 spinning by itself with no oil pump provides no usable torque at drive shaft. High gear, yes, but brakes aren't engaged, so just slips. All you get is the sound of free spinning MG2. On the bench, output spins, but that's just friction. Must have oil pressure to move vehicle.
Thanks, that's super interesting and much more in line with what I'd expect based on the diagrams! I'll find out for myself soon enough and will publish a more definitive set of results then.
And to be clear, car will still be driveable if solenoids fail open, but that's because oil pressure is still available. Just no access to low gear, and no true "neutral" if that can be controlled via solenoids at all (not sure we've figured that out).
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:41 pm And to be clear, car will still be driveable if solenoids fail open, but that's because oil pressure is still available. Just no access to low gear, and no true "neutral" if that can be controlled via solenoids at all (not sure we've figured that out).
Some people seem to have working cars on the road, but nobody has done a full test of all 4 combinations and posted the results. Again, I will endeavor to do so when I have the opportunity. For now, all I know for sure is what I put in the table further up this thread based on my bench testing.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

I'll try to do that. Been rolling for a few weeks now. Send me your ideal test procedure and I'll see if I can set that up.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:55 pm I'll try to do that. Been rolling for a few weeks now. Send me your ideal test procedure and I'll see if I can set that up.
Thanks for the offer. In the first instance, it would be great to compare each of the 4 possible combinations, accelerating from stationary and recording the behaviour (eg: low gear, high hear, neutral, nasty noise, fire, etc). If you could complete this table, that would be awesome.
Screenshot.png
Screenshot.png (3.69 KiB) Viewed 2579 times
If we are able to identify a high gear, a low gear, and a neutral, then the next step would be to test changing low->neutral->high while the vehicle is moving, but one step at a time.
Thanks again. I will be hopefully spinning my friend's tomorrow but since it's not yet attached to the differential, I'm still a way off being able to test properly.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

Ok. I'll try and get this done.

Looking back at my notes, do you know what PB1, PB2, PB3, and SP are?
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by xp677 »

I mean, I've been driving the car around just fine with no oil pump or solenoids connected. But OK.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by xp677 »

PB are sensors, either open or closed. SP is PWM control of fluid pressure, I believe.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

xp677 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:23 am I mean, I've been driving the car around just fine with no oil pump or solenoids connected. But OK.
I hear you, I do that as well (no oil pump), but I have to get pressure up initially from stop, and I can do that with the oil pump or free-wheeling MG1. How are you building up initial oil pressure? Just goosing MG2 until pressure comes up?

And when you say, "no solenoids connected," are you not providing at least the 12v signal to the connector? Or are you really running with nothing to that connector?

Just trying to clarify.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:11 am Ok. I'll try and get this done.

Looking back at my notes, do you know what PB1, PB2, PB3, and SP are?
PB1 is an indicator of whether brake1 is activated, PB2 is an indicator of whether brake2 is activated. Both show as a LOW input on the VCU when true.
PB2 is an indicator that oil pressure is sufficient. Again, shows as LOW input on the VCU when oil pressure rises.
SP is a solenoid to let off oil pressure. I really don't know how you'd know when to activate this.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

xp677 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:23 am I mean, I've been driving the car around just fine with no oil pump or solenoids connected. But OK.
Do you mean you're not pumping oil at all (input shaft locked, and no electric pump)? Or are you pumping oil some other way? I assumed it was essential to have some oil flow!

I need to look into how people are controlling their electric oil pumps. I ran mine for a few minutes today at 120PWM. It seemed to work well but got very hot, perhaps a lot less oil circulation is needed than this, just enough to activate the oil pressure sensor (SP3)?
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

catphish wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:09 pm
xp677 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:23 am I mean, I've been driving the car around just fine with no oil pump or solenoids connected. But OK.
Do you mean you're not pumping oil at all (input shaft locked, and no electric pump)? Or are you pumping oil some other way? I assumed it was essential to have some oil flow!

I need to look into how people are controlling their electric oil pumps. I ran mine for a few minutes today at 120PWM. It seemed to work well but got very hot, perhaps a lot less oil circulation is needed than this, just enough to activate the oil pressure sensor (SP3)?
I run mine at 30 PWM (that's the setting I give the VCU -- does that mean 30PWM or 30% of 100?) and can drive around just fine on that.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm I run mine at 30 PWM (that's the setting I give the VCU -- does that mean 30PWM or 30% of 100?) and can drive around just fine on that.
What firmware are you running? I'll double check what your 30 means :)
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

catphish wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:10 pm
ggeter wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm I run mine at 30 PWM (that's the setting I give the VCU -- does that mean 30PWM or 30% of 100?) and can drive around just fine on that.
What firmware are you running? I'll double check what your 30 means :)
https://github.com/damienmaguire/Lexus- ... 0h_v3_user
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

ggeter wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:26 pm
catphish wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:10 pm What firmware are you running? I'll double check what your 30 means :)
https://github.com/damienmaguire/Lexus- ... 0h_v3_user

Code: Select all

analogWrite(OilPumpPWM,map(parameters.PumpPWM, 0, 100, 0, 255)); //set oil pump pwm
Thanks, looks like it's percent. 0% to 100% maps to a PWM value of 0-255, so your 30% maps to a PWM of 77, much less then the 120 I have been testing with. I will search to see what other people use, and reduce mine accordingly. It's worth noting that in my experience, the scale (0% to 100%) isn't really linear. Only part of the range (maybe 25% to 75% or so) actually has any effect.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by xp677 »

catphish wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:09 pm Do you mean you're not pumping oil at all (input shaft locked, and no electric pump)? Or are you pumping oil some other way? I assumed it was essential to have some oil flow!
Nah, I haven't needed it for short tests runs up and down the driveway. I set the pump up but am struggling with fluid levels as my coolers sit much higher than the oil pan, so the pump often runs dry. I just leave it off most of the time.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

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ggeter wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:14 pm I hear you, I do that as well (no oil pump), but I have to get pressure up initially from stop, and I can do that with the oil pump or free-wheeling MG1. How are you building up initial oil pressure? Just goosing MG2 until pressure comes up?

And when you say, "no solenoids connected," are you not providing at least the 12v signal to the connector? Or are you really running with nothing to that connector?

Just trying to clarify.
I just drive the car like normal. Like push the pedal and it moves.

Connector plugged in or not doesn't make a difference as I'm not driving anything high or low anyway. No idea how it's wired any more as it's been 3 years but I guess that it's wired with 12V to the solenoids and then pull downs from my PCM.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by Jack Bauer »

I took the liberty of testing this on the bench today.
Case 1 : No sols, No pump. All PB are off.
Case 2 : Pump on at over 30%, no sols : PB1-0n, PB2-Off,PB3-Off. Output runs in high gear.
Case 3 : Pump on at over 30%,both sols on, PB1-Off,PB2-On,PB3-On. Shaft runs in low gear.
Case 4 : Pump on at over 30%,SL1-On,SL2-Off, PB1-Off,PB2-Off,PB3-On. Shaft runs in high gear.clicking from gearbox.
Case 5 : Pump on at over 30%,SL1-Off,SL2-On, PB1-Off,PB2-Off,PB3-On. Shaft runs in high gear.

So only when SL1 and SL2 are on do we get low gear.
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by catphish »

Jack Bauer wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:18 pm I took the liberty of testing this on the bench today.
Case 1 : No sols, No pump. All PB are off.
Case 2 : Pump on at over 30%, no sols : PB1-0n, PB2-Off,PB3-Off. Output runs in high gear.
Case 3 : Pump on at over 30%,both sols on, PB1-Off,PB2-On,PB3-On. Shaft runs in low gear.
Case 4 : Pump on at over 30%,SL1-On,SL2-Off, PB1-Off,PB2-Off,PB3-On. Shaft runs in high gear.clicking from gearbox.
Case 5 : Pump on at over 30%,SL1-Off,SL2-On, PB1-Off,PB2-Off,PB3-On. Shaft runs in high gear.

So only when SL1 and SL2 are on do we get low gear.
Thanks for doing this. I have 2 comments on this:
1) It's odd that your SL3 result was different to mine with all solenoids off. Perhaps I made a mistake, but I observed that PB3 was always on when oil pressure was present. I thought that's what this sensor was for.
2) While I think we're all in universal agreement that both solenoids have to be on to achieve low gear, it's still not clear which is the correct configuration for high gear (though we're all assuming it's both off), and perhaps more importantly, which sequence we should use to switch gears without unpleasant binding.

I'm afraid I have had not further opportunity to test this. Is this something you'd be willing to do? For example test "[1,1] -> [0,1] -> [0,0]" vs "[1,1] -> [1,0] -> [0,0]" when the shaft is rotating at high RPM. I'm working under the assumption that the OEM allows ratio change when in motion? Perhaps someone with a working vehicle can confirm this?
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by Woodfie »

I'm afraid I have had not further opportunity to test this. Is this something you'd be willing to do? For example test "[1,1] -> [0,1] -> [0,0]" vs "[1,1] -> [1,0] -> [0,0]" when the shaft is rotating at high RPM. I'm working under the assumption that the OEM allows ratio change when in motion? Perhaps someone with a working vehicle can confirm this?


Hi, I started some investigation of the SL1 and SL2, I will revisit on a running gs450h..
A trial I did showed that the vehicle was in Low gear until around 110kmph, then switched to High. It remained in High, until around 60-65 kmph, then Low returned.
only tried this once, with a mimic board of leds, and ceased playing, as suspected it prevented clearing of error codes, which left the vehicle unable to restart at an intersection. Uggghh may have been coincidental, not sure, slight panic mode to exit before authorities appeared.
A revisit is planned, as I have a gs450h transmission installed in CF Bedford van, and the operation and sequencing of the gear change, would be good for all to know... :D
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by DkubusEV »

Really great information and researching so far, thanks to all contributors thus far!! Has anyone got any further with this "shifting on the fly" testing yet? Also am I correct in thinking that if I "lock" the input shaft via the planetary through to MG1 and NOT via the external input-shaft-locking method then I could rely on the internal oil pump for all driving (whilst in motion) and only use the external pump for getting ready to take off from stopped and again when vehicle speed (mg1 rpm) drops to a pre determined value? Could this make for better efficiency at continuous cruising speeds and whilst coasting etc? Plus less wear and tear on poor old electric-pump? Just my thoughts as so far that's all can contribute until my Zombie arrives and I can start my system build. Cheers from Australia.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by ggeter »

I don't use the electric pump at all. See my previous post on this topic: https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopi ... 923#p39923

Works like a charm.
DkubusEV wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:25 am Really great information and researching so far, thanks to all contributors thus far!! Has anyone got any further with this "shifting on the fly" testing yet? Also am I correct in thinking that if I "lock" the input shaft via the planetary through to MG1 and NOT via the external input-shaft-locking method then I could rely on the internal oil pump for all driving (whilst in motion) and only use the external pump for getting ready to take off from stopped and again when vehicle speed (mg1 rpm) drops to a pre determined value? Could this make for better efficiency at continuous cruising speeds and whilst coasting etc? Plus less wear and tear on poor old electric-pump? Just my thoughts as so far that's all can contribute until my Zombie arrives and I can start my system build. Cheers from Australia.
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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by DkubusEV »

Agreed that you don't need the external pump if you are able to "idle" the mg1 however if I lock my planetary gears then that's not an option. Also if you're consuming 3 Amps to idle the mg1 (Assuming 3 Amps at 200 or more pack voltage) that's at least 600W and that's more than the external pump would draw from the 14v circuit I'd say. I can't test this yet, but soon. (Waiting on freight of my 450h). Also I'm optimistic that with the planetary torque splitter locked I'll be able to experiment with the possibility of free-wheeling both brakes on mg2's two speed reduction so that I can "coast it" when cruising at light loads at medium-high speeds? Lots of unknowns but it's all exciting stuff. Cheers for anyone that can add to my crazy ideas?

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Re: GS450H Solenoids SL1 SL2

Post by PatrcioEV-ATX »

Ok, need to revive this thread for some odd behavior in my set up. With this code (I think the component on my board is always ON for SL2 because it was part of a bad batch of boards sent out):

Instructions: Results (in my VCU):

digitalWrite(TransSL1,LOW); PB1 Off
digitalWrite(TransSL2,LOW); PB2 On
digitalWrite(TransSP,LOW); PB3 Off - This gives me High gear

Trying to change to Low gear, I changed to this in the code:

digitalWrite(TransSL1,HIGH); PB1 On
digitalWrite(TransSL2,HIGH); PB2 On
digitalWrite(TransSP,HIGH); PB3 On - This also gives me High gear

Then I noticed in someone else's code, they have this code for changing to Low:

digitalWrite(TransSL1,HIGH); PB1 Off
digitalWrite(TransSL2,HIGH); PB2 On
digitalWrite(TransSP,LOW); PB3 Off - Still in High

I can't get the transmission to change to Low gear under any combination of these. Anyone have any thoughts?? I think SL2 always being HIGH no matter what I tell it is ok, but I don't understand why changing between TransSP HIGH and LOW has a different impact on PB1.
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