Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Introduction and miscellaneous that we haven't created categories for, yet
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Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by P.S.Mangelsdorf »

I'm hoping to expand some information on OEM parts for the wiki, to answer some of my questions and questions I know others have. This would expand on my table in the Tesla section, found here: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla

The goal is to make it easier for new people to understand what we are talking about when we say Prius Gen2, or Leaf Gen 1, or Tesla Charger Gen 2, etc, as well as help people plan their builds by understanding what power level different components can handle.

Yes, I understand lots of this could be figured out from Googling, but I'm hoping we can compile some information here to help people out.

Here's what I would like to include:
- Drive unit/inverter/charger generational definitions. i.e. what model years used a Prius Gen3 inverter.
- Motor/inverter/drive unit voltage and amperage limits; including OEM use, OpenInverter use, and component limits

Here's an example

Tesla Large Drive Unit (LDU)
- includes motor, inverter, gear box
- rear motor in all RWD Model S and X 2012-2017
- Sport version was rear motor in all P variant Model S + X 2012-2017
- OEM Max DC voltage: 400V
- OpenInverter tested Max DC voltage: 410V?
- rated inverter component DC voltage: 600v?
- OEM Max amperage: believed to be 800-1200amps
- Open Inverter tested Max amperage: ? (Jon Volk, what are you running?)

Here's a template. Please provide what information you have, even if it isn't all of it! Anything is better than nothing.

[NAME]
- [what is it]
- [what years and models can it be found in]
- OEM Maximum DC Voltage:
- Open Inverter tested Max Voltage:
- Internal Components Rated DC Voltage:
- OEM Max Amperage:
- Open Inverter Tested Max amperage:
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by johu »

Changed to announcement
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Prius Gen 2 and Prius Gen 3 pages have had this info right from when I first seeded the articles.

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Gen2_Board

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Gen3_Board

The pages started out as specific tech pages for specific EVBMW products, but have gotten a bit gnarly since as different versions have been created/abandoned. It should really just be a general page about the Prius Gen 2, and then split off into the various products available to use it and their specific instructions. I think I'll get on that sometime this week.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by P.S.Mangelsdorf »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:13 am Prius Gen 2 and Prius Gen 3 pages have had this info right from when I first seeded the articles.
Great, I'll pull from there when I put stuff together.

I'd like to have one master table to make it simple for people to compare options, but that's no reason for it not to also be on individual pages.

I'm hoping to get started this weekend or early next week.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Bump.

Didn't see anyone else contribute inverter specs, so, thought it deserved a bump.

Also, if it's not too much of a hijack, I was trying to think of how to improve the wiki in other ways. (If too much of a hijack, we can split this thread into a new one).

I've been trying to think of how to make this community more accessible to the people it was created for. I.E. People doing DIY EV conversions, with a focus on power/vehicle control. So, viewed through that lens, I went to the wiki.

The main Wiki page has a short introduction, then a "Getting Started" section that... just datadumps 50 links. It's the last thing I would want to see if I was "getting started", it would completely overwhelm me and there's not a lot of context given. I bet 90% of people who walk into that, walk away and look for a different solution. And as soon as it's "go to the github", that rises to 99% who walk away. The UI is so bad and so barren and unexplained that most people just eject on the spot. What's left are the people who are able to contribute, but not those who'd use the results of those projects.

Part of the trouble with Open Source, is that it's like arriving to a heavily foggy forest with a small trail. You have no idea where the trail ends up, if anywhere, nor do you know if that's where you want to be. The path diverges many times, some of those are dead ends. Some of them are well-travelled, but you can't tell they're well travelled. Some are abandoned and overgrown, and you have no idea if that's normal or not. It's intimidating to even start walking. You don't know if it will be useful or of value to you.

This is part of the blessing and curse of open source. No project or part of a project is ever really alive or dead. Nothing is truly abandoned or finished. Anyone can pick up any part of it and continue building that path. But it also means that it lacks overview, as, that injects opinion into the project. It's like dropping someone off in a city they've never been to and don't speak the language of, versus a guided tour.

So, how can it be better?

Some kind of guided path. Which means we're injecting opinion, and, advice that's increasingly less relevant the longer it is after it's written (would probably need an annual update at least). We are trading completeness for ease of access. And to guide someone on that path, we have to know the person we're being guided.

The audience is: People with beginner or moderate technical skills, sufficient to build an EV, but not develop inverter hardware or software. They showed up because they were curious and are looking for alternatives to buying a Curtis controller or paying someone to do their conversion. People that probably have a vehicle in mind, maybe a motor or are motor-flexible, and aren't sure what to pick for a motor because they don't know how they'd control it anyway, and they kind of heard that this place has those solutions for inverters and speed controls.

I think that's the average person who finds this community.

What would we say to someone who shows up, without much technical knowledge, wanting to pick a motor/inverter? Just by observation, what do we actually do?

We tell them the current meta is probably to find an OEM hybrid transaxle or EV motor, probably re-use an existing OEM inverter, and it's probably a Tesla, Leaf, Lexus, or Prius, for all of which there are existing brain swaps.

Then maybe add in that there's efforts to create a whole VCU, a CCS and/or CHADEMO fast charge, etc.

But we'd point them to the most polished solutions first. We don't say "Here's 50 ways you could go." We say "You probably want one of these 5 paths."

Currently, I don't think most people are guided in that direction. The Wiki serves more as a datadump (certainly the hardware/software under exploration/development, where it's a great page to colimate info so far discovered), and is maybe okay as a lookup once you already know what you want. But it's bad to tell somewhere where they probably want to go. And the forums are great for discussion, but even worse for discovering afterwards as they're what we build the wiki out of.

We should tell beginners about the solutions that are fairly polished. Highlighting those as "Hey, this is generally complete, you could start using this now" is of tremendous value to a lost beginner. The wiki should, where appropriate, steer more towards being a Guide and a Tutorial, and less of a smattering of technical reverse engineering notes.

Anyway, just throwing that out there. I'd like to be able to contribute in more ways, since in my 2 years here I've been useless on a technical front. If I do contribute in this way, I'm going to be... I dunno, shaving and re-sorting *some* of the wiki, I just don't know what or in what way, but, kind of from this perspective. I thought I'd solicit feedback on whether that's good or bad before I start dickering around.

Good/bad/agree/disagree? Perspectives?
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by johu »

I see your point. How about working on your idea of the getting started page here: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Getting_Started
And we can copy it over once good.

It could have different chapters on the common questions:
- How to I propel my vehicle? - tease and link different drive train options there
- How do I store the energy? - tease battery packs and BMS options
- How do I charge? CHAdeMO, CCS various chargers
- How do I replace the auxiliaries? - Water/vacuum/hydraulic pumps
- How do I heat/cool? - Various heaters and climate compressors
- How do I configure/use? Display solutions, Web Interface etc.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by elocsitruc »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 am Bump.
The audience is: People with beginner or moderate technical skills, sufficient to build an EV, but not develop inverter hardware or software. They showed up because they were curious and are looking for alternatives to buying a Curtis controller or paying someone to do their conversion. People that probably have a vehicle in mind, maybe a motor or are motor-flexible, and aren't sure what to pick for a motor because they don't know how they'd control it anyway, and they kind of heard that this place has those solutions for inverters and speed controls.

I think that's the average person who finds this community.

What would we say to someone who shows up, without much technical knowledge, wanting to pick a motor/inverter? Just by observation, what do we actually do?

Good/bad/agree/disagree? Perspectives?
Just wanted to say this is exactly me. I've done a couple ls swaps, built quite a few cars and like to go fast. Been looking into EV swaps and been muddling my way through this forum and oof is it a slog.

I would highly highly suggest to bring more people in and garner interest is to follow Matt happels example of sloppy mechanics of making basic "recipes" that just work and let people build off that. The most important thing being getting builds on the road rather then in a garage.

I for one am looking heavily into the gs450h Trans as it seems super easy to use for rwd. (I'm totally new to EV, but did mech engineering and econ in college, so I know my way around decently). But finding info on what works with what, power ratings of components, etc is hard here. For example, I've seen that the mg1 and mg2 motors/ prius inverter are good to 480hp is this the same mg1 and mg2 in the gs450h? Idk. But not looking for answers here just thinking the "recipe" guideline is a good way to go.

For example: basic commuter car with 100 miles of range: build example 1,2,etc
Rwd race/sports: build examples
Awd: etc

https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/

Above isn't perfect imo as it references specific build names people in the sloppy community know but the 8 for 8s page:https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywik ... authuser=0
Is a great example of goal stated and videos of how to get there with budgets and list of parts.

Ps Damien and Matt Happel eally remind me of each other especially with the rambling
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by P.S.Mangelsdorf »

I agree the wiki is in need of significant work, and Matt it sounds like you're on the right track.

My job has gotten exceptionally busy over the past few months, and shows no sign of slowing. I'm hoping to get time to help but I can't make any promises.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by GMEV »

Matt is reading my mind
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by Bratitude »

iv found some spare time, with not much else im able todo. so i started cleaning up the wiki a bit. going threw trying to consolidate info and layout. this is quite a mess!

im going to create a possible "beginners" sections to help those whom are completely lost, aswell as increases the depth of some of the topics. i spent a bit of time flushing out the leaf page, but there is ton more to do on that front.

being that there is so much depth with (example) the leaf motors, gear box, and inverters. i think there should be more uniform pages.

unless johu and such feels that this is straying too far from the objective of the forum and wiki
https://bratindustries.net/ leaf motor couplers, adapter plates, custom drive train components
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by johu »

Yes, saw your changes to the main page, going in the right direction I'd think. Looking forward to what is next :)
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by Bratitude »

may be a good idea to start compelling and deleting (?) all the dead and empty pages.

also there are many many folks whom are actively developing projects here, and deserve some links for donation, arber, celeron, matt, dave, etc do you guys have donation pages we can post on the wiki and so forth?
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by crasbe »

In the last days I started adding (much needed!) categories to the Wiki pages. There is still a lot of work to do.
Also there's a lot of information still spread though out forum threads which needs to be condensed into the wiki articles.
I've observed that we might have to establish a standard format for wiki articles, but that's rather a luxury problem.

I hope that none of my changes so far have upset anyone, it should perhaps be considered "housekeeping" :D

The Mediawiki Extension "Cite" (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite) is something that really should be added to the Wiki. It should already be installed and just has to be activated. It can be used to create reference lists like we know from Wikipedia. This would make links embedded in texts a lot more readable.

--------------

Since I don't have the necessary privileges, please delete the following pages:
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Charger (made redundant by Category:Charger)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/DC/DC_Converter (same)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S/X_Charger (same, was just an overview page with no additional information)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/BMW (same)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Volkswagon (same (and has a wrong name..))
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mistubishi (same)

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Categoy:Hardware (seems to have been created by a typo)

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Mishubish_outlander_phev (redunant)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf_VCU (redundant, is now the ZombieVerter)

https://openinverter.org/wiki/GEN1 (no relevant information)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla_DC/DC_converter (same, replaced by Category)

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Inverter_Hardware (seems to be abandoned and unlikely to be used again)

https://openinverter.org/wiki/New_Main_Page (even says "should be deleted" lol)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Project_Wiki_Page
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Introduction (empty)
https://openinverter.org/wiki/Future_plans (outdated)
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by johu »

I'm liking that! Thanks very much.

Deleted those pages.

How do you make a page occur in a certain category? Could you move the Prius Gen2 and Gen3 into the inverter category? Or tell me how to do it if you don't have sufficient permissions.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by crasbe »

Adding a Category to a page is really simple. You add a Category tag to the bottom of the page like this:

Code: Select all

 [[Category:Inverter]] 
I just didn't get around to do all pages yet. There is no limit on how many categories can be added to a page, but for the first step I did OEM, the manufacturer (in this case it would be Toyota) and the type of device like Inverter, Motor, ...

In the next days I'll continue my effort, so you don't have to do anything (except if you want to :D ). But maybe I'll post some more pages in the future to be deleted.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by johu »

Glad I learned something!
I elevated your permissions so you should be able to delete pages now.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by crasbe »

Thanks a lot for your trust :)
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by Bratitude »

crasbe wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:04 am
I've observed that we might have to establish a standard format for wiki articles, but that's rather a luxury problem.
THIS! going forward it would reduce the amount of house cleaning needed in the future!

im happy to start, admit tho im no wiki expert.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

The Getting Starts is among the things I've dropped the ball on.

I tried starting off with just "List what BMS's a person might want to consider" and got almost no feedback, and, I'm not the right person to write that because I lack context.

I've tried to start this kind of "State of Affairs 2022" article explaining the current meta and options of DIY EVs on the DIY EV forum, at least, a couple years back, and more or less got shit on by a few loudmouths I haven't seen much of since.

Anyway, a general overview of what's out there and why you might want to choose it is still something I'd like to contribute to, but maybe I'm better off writing or expanding on things than getting it down in the first place.

Thanks everyone who's stepped up so far.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by jason_arnold »

I've been contributing to the OI wiki as I'm able for a few months now. TBH, many of my contribs are attributing posts from either here or DIYEC, but that's OK, because I believe that's how a Wiki should be - succinct article with sources for reference. Coming back to crasbe's request for the "Cite" extension to be implemented, I'm happy to say Johu has put that in place for anyone who wants to use it. No pages have been done in that format yet, but once an example is ready, I'll try to remember to post it here.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by cajunfj40 »

Hello all,

I just edited the P310, P410, P510 and MGR pages, having consolidated some notes I've taken over the past few years, plus I found a few new-to-me sources. First time editing a wiki, so formatting may not be up to par. For future reference, here are the sources I used:

https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/21-12 ... _tr_en.htm
https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/19-10 ... wd_eng.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... d_Vehicles
https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publication ... b26762.pdf
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/928684
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ie ... f/-char/en
also the various Weber Auto vids

The toyota-club.net files were new to me, but had lots of info I'd not seen before. NOTE: most of the power figures I put in were "as published" from these new pages, except for the numbers I could pull from the ORNL reports. I also noted when the numbers are "test output" and/or "estimates" from those publications. I did note that the ORNL papers, the toyota-club.net files, and the Weber Auto videos all agreed on the published numbers, at least. I wanted to add some info to the GS450h/LS600h page, but I'd need to reformat it a lot or clone the L210 page (never cloned a page in a Wiki before, nor added it and got the linkages right) and edit that as it's formatted more like the other transaxle pages.

Here's a *raw* dump of info from my notes on the L110/L110F, so it doesn't get lost as easily. The dates are when I added to my note file, no other significance. There's some speculation in here, too, as that's how I wrote it. Yes, you do not *need* 650V to run this transaxle, testing is not the same as real-world use, etc

<raw dump from notes>
3rd gen L110F LS600h/GS450H (LF1A center rear, driver drop front output transfer case on LS600h)
Drive motor: 1KM (147 kW / 275 nm - 165 kW / 300 nm)
MG1 and MG2 internal inverters rated at 134kw and 147kw(165kw?) as-is (based off motor ratings). Lexus docs say 130kw for motor MG2.
MG1 max RPM 10000(?) Probably ~70kw/140Nm(103lb-ft) 18 second rating from ORNL testing of Camry scaled to Lexus stack length.
MG2 max RPM 10230, peak torque is 300Nm/221lb-ft 0-5,250RPM at 430A (Peak locked-rotor torque tested to 330Nm/243lb-ft at 490A)
The 18 second power/torque capability of the LS 600h motor MG2 is about 110 kW /220Nm (162lb-ft) with a stator temperature limit of 150°C.
That torque takes about 300A
->8JAN2021 one OpenInverter poster was pushing 505A at 358V per their ISA shunt, so 181kW into the inverter.
Can run at 650VDC applied to internal main bus. Normally runs off 288VDC pack with buck/boost converter. Converter rated at 36.5kW max.
GS450H/LS600H transmission has engine input and Generator going through power-split planetary, then joining with Motor into 2-speed Ravignaux gearset.
Input shaft (engine) is connected to power-split planetary carrier. 4x Planetaries have 22 teeth, and carrier also drives oil pump.
Generator is connected to power-split sun gear, with 30 teeth.
Ring gear is connected to Ravignaux carrier and thus to output shaft. Ring has 78 teeth.
With input shaft and thus planetary carrier locked, generator gear ratio is -2.6:1 to ring gear output shaft. 78 Ring gear teeth divided by 30 Sun gear teeth.
With sun gear locked (fused generator), gear ratio is 1.385:1 from input shaft to ring gear output shaft.
If ring gear could be locked, input shaft gear ratio would be 3.6:1 from generator. 78 Ring gear teeth divided by 22 Planetary gear teeth.
Motor is connected to Ravignaux primary sun gear with 30 teeth.
Ravignaux Planetary carrier - recieves input from Generator and ICE as well - has 28 tooth planets meshing with primary sun gear.
Ravignaux Planetary carrier has 20 tooth planets on it as well that mesh with a 27 tooth secondary sun gear.
The sun gears are independent - secondary sun has a clutch to the case.
Ravignaux Ring gears are conjoined, and have a clutch to the case.
When sun gear clutch is applied, and ring gear clutch is released, you get 3.9:1 reduction out of planetary carrier output shaft.
When ring gear clutch is applied, and sun gear clutch is released, you get 1.9:1 reduciton out of planetary carrier output shaft.
Note that input shaft and generator/power split gearset output does not get multiplied by those gear ratios, as all their power goes into the planetary carrier, which is directly connected to the output shaft.
->21SEP2021
Tested by Damien Maguire of EVBMW to pull 450+A at ~265V so ~120kW from battery (sagged from 390V) at ~5000RPM MG1/4000RPM MG2, so the Back EMF of the setup in Hi with locked input shaft is still low enough to accept that much and pull hard in a BMW E64 7-series with 2.83? rearend. 20 mile drive with at least 10-15 minutes at 60mph showed a rise from 11C to 21C temp on the motors, relying solely on the internal oil/glycol heat exchangers in the unit and the 12V external oil pump. The unit can be modified to have (or some already have) input/output ports to flow oil to an in-radiator transmission cooler (in the original hybrid application).

>29JAN2021 From https://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/0 ... i_to_.html
HR-10 RWD two-stage reduction AW 2-motor Hybrid system with 1.9 Hi and 3.9 Lo gears
Torque capacithy 530 Nm
Motor output 147kW traction, 134kW generator
Length 763mm, weight 120kg. Looks like the GS450/LS600h unit...
</raw dump from notes>
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by asavage »

Johannes & crasbe, I'd like to document info about the Tesla Model S GEN1 Charger, and the OI Wiki seems like a good place to do it. We already have pages for these other models:
Screenshot from 2023-02-24 10-14-12.png
Could you add a page for Tesla Model S GEN1 Charger? I'll begin fleshing it out, but I can't create it initially.

---

I realize that this early Tesla charger is not popular for conversions, but for those of use who have OEM vehicles that utilize this OBC, documenting signals and connector pinouts, etc., is valuable, even if the unit isn't frequently used for other purposes.
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by Bratitude »

asavage wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:23 pm Johannes & crasbe, I'd like to document info about the Tesla Model S GEN1 Charger, and the OI Wiki seems like a good place to do it. We already have pages for these other models:

Screenshot from 2023-02-24 10-14-12.png

Could you add a page for Tesla Model S GEN1 Charger? I'll begin fleshing it out, but I can't create it initially.

---

I realize that this early Tesla charger is not popular for conversions, but for those of use who have OEM vehicles that utilize this OBC, documenting signals and connector pinouts, etc., is valuable, even if the unit isn't frequently used for other purposes.

you can add your own pages to the wiki.

1. write some text
2. select text and click the link icon
3. click the red link
4. ??
5. page created

here: https://openinverter.org/wiki/Gen_1_charger

or just make up the url youd like the page to be at: https://openinverter.org/wiki/"your_text_here"
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Re: Compiling Information For Wiki - Please Contribute

Post by asavage »

Thanks for that tip.

https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S_GEN1_Charger

Any idea on how to add it to the Category:Charger, so that people hitting the Wiki landing page and selecting "Chargers / Charge Controllers" will see it on the list?

[a few days later]
crasbe gave the answer to that upthread. D'oh!
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