Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Topics concerning OEM and open source BMSes
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MattsAwesomeStuff
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Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Hi everyone,

I was trying to think of how to contribute to the community, and one of the things I think is missing is a "State of Affairs" of DIY EVs. I think maybe once a year or so there should be a document explaining the current meta for EVs. This will probably be a Wiki page later, but I wanted to do the brainstorming here.

BMS's are one of the black holes for my knowledge, as to what's out there. I could google, but then you never know all the details. All the "Yeah, that guy was working on it, but it never got finished and it's not really in usable state.", or "Once upon a time this was the meta, but no one does that anymore, most of us consider A, B, or C now..."

In that light, since almost everyone here has already been through this process, fire away. Some random beginner is looking to get a BMS. What's out there that they should consider, or not consider, what's in the works, etc? I'd like a comprehensive list so people can just look up what they're into and why they might or might not want it.

I'll compile the shell of this into a Wiki page later.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Giving this a bump.

Someone's building an EV, needs a BMS, what do you tell them to get?
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by celeron55 »

Depends on which battery they got and how technically capable they are.

If the battery already has an OEM BMS that SimpBMS supports, it rarely makes sense not to use that. It can be heavily modified for integration or so, being open source.

If not, then your options are one of the more DIY / open source solutions if you have the know-how and a tight budget, and if not, then a commercial proprietary system like OrionBMS.

You have to of course keep in mind the integration to the rest of the system, as it can sometimes steer you towards a specific BMS, which in turn can steer you towards a specific battery.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

celeron55 wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:04 amDepends on which battery they got and how technically capable they are.
I think 96 cells are generally standard. And if not (like, a daisy-chained system), for cost comparison's sake that's probably the easiest baseline to compare everything to.
If the battery already has an OEM BMS that SimpBMS supports, it rarely makes sense not to use that. It can be heavily modified for integration or so, being open source.
Okay, adding SimpBMS. Of course, Tom here on the forums keeps up updated with his progress:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=131&sid=7c3fc7fbda ... 52c574df53

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/ ... s/simp-bms

It's around $500, for those who already have a BMS.
If not, then your options are one of the more DIY / open source solutions if you have the know-how and a tight budget,
Indeed, such as?

The problem for me - and I'm someone who's read almost every new thread here and on the DIYEV forums - is that I have no ability to distinguish between someone having the idea for a project, getting started, or something that's ready to use. I lack the experience to evaluate all these different choices or tell an abandoned project from a completed one. And I have a huge advantage over the people who would be new to this.

Every new person to EVs has to repeat the same research and the same rehashing of choices, probably all making poor choices. Like, there's a reason I'm asking here, rather than just googling and pulling random projects out of the hat. Hopefully we can build on each other's research and conclusions.

For example, I think Arber was making his own BMS. Johannes had his own or started making one or something. Did those work? Did anything come of those? Has anyone used them? Etc.

Also, I know Damien's mentioned in the past he doesn't get into holy wars, but he's decided vehicles he does need BMSs. I don't think he's mentioned what he uses though.
and if not, then a commercial proprietary system like OrionBMS.
Adding Orion as a polished solution.

https://www.orionbms.com/products/orion-bms-standard

$1200 for a 96-cell solution, though costs scale pretty linearly with howevermany cells you need.
You have to of course keep in mind the integration to the rest of the system, as it can sometimes steer you towards a specific BMS, which in turn can steer you towards a specific battery.
I think most people pick battery first, and BMS to fit afterwards. Battery being so much more expensive and form factor being such a determinant for battery selection.

Everyone else feel free to jump in with your choice, or your choices, or how you made your choices.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by Ctwidle »

Ok, I’m in this particular boat. I have pretty much decided on fitting a full 24kWh Leaf pack in my ‘72 Superbug (available tested and with some support from a local supplier) it will fit neatly in a 50/50 split. Reading all the threads has not been a problem, understanding and/or remembering what I have read is! The Leaf bms doesn’t seem like a good option and the SimpBMS seems a bit advanced for someone like me who struggled with Sinclair ZX81 BASIC. (showing my age here!) I recently downloaded the Orion installation documents and that, whilst comprehensive, still seems like enough of a challenge for a none EE.
I’m not in a hurry and content to chip in a little to Patreon and grateful that the brains around here allow me to tag along while they solve the problems that will allow me to run an Outlander rear motor in the little bug%@&.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by Bigpie »

Simpbms can be as simple as a teensy and a can transceiver so very cheap, if you have can controlled slaves on the modules. So I that's the VW, BMW and outlander modules from memory. Tesla modules use some sort of serial.

For a full leaf pack it makes sense to reuse the bms, just be careful to get the wiring correct.

I'd rather reuse as much OEM as possible, they've sunk massive amounts of money in R&D.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

Bigpie wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:01 amSimpbms can be as simple as a teensy and a can transceiver so very cheap, if you have can controlled slaves on the modules. So I that's the VW, BMW and outlander modules from memory. Tesla modules use some sort of serial.
Oh?

So, stuff like that, how would I have found that out, without a deeper technical understanding of the project? I haven't even been able to find a basic introduction or "project overview", or a webpage telling people why they may want it or what they may use it for. In my experience, as soon as the word "GitHub" gets mentioned, you've excluded everyone who's not a programmer or engineer. The UI there is dropping people into a jungle without a map.

And that's fine, because I can't design an open source BMS. But I probably can bridge between the people who can and the people who'd use it. So, stuff like that is part of the reason I'm doing this. Even then though, how would I find this out?
For a full leaf pack it makes sense to reuse the bms, just be careful to get the wiring correct.
What's the difference between the Leaf and the others, that you can just use the Leaf as-is vs. the others you needing to add the SimpBMS board?
I'd rather reuse as much OEM as possible, they've sunk massive amounts of money in R&D.
Indeed. What about those of us not using OEM batteries? What are our BMS options?
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by Bigpie »

The leaf isn't a distributed system, in that the modules don't have slave controller boards.
I can only say what I know, and that's vw modules with simpbms based master board.

I've heard of Orion and a few others but haven't a clue
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by 86elcamino »

I appreciate the effort here.
I'm planning on using at least one Gen 2 Volt battery pack, and hoping to use the BMS that came with the pack, either by itself or with some type of add-on controller.
Any help is definitely appreciated.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by bjp »

I'm looking at BMS options now. I'm not using OEM cells for my EV Mini conversion, I've got hold of around 10kWh of Boston Power Swing 5300 cells welded up in 4S9P configuration. I'm planning on installing in 48s 12p to give me 172V, 120A continuous (250A peak 10s) battery. Its only a little town runabout car, so 50-60km range at 30-40mph speeds is all I need (for now at least).

I was thinking about using Stuart Pittaway's DIYBMS v4.4 from the Openenergymonitor.com forum - has anyone used this before? Any other recommendations to check out?
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by m.art.y »

bjp wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:58 pm Any other recommendations to check out?
I recommend Tesla BMS slave boards together with SIMP BMS. It then becomes fully configurable BMS at a good price. For 48s you'd need 8 Tesla slave boards. PM if interested I got them for sale too.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by ViktorT »

I have bought Lithium balance BMS. I.need to have it programmed now from the EV firm I bought it from. Anyone with any experience with Lithium balance?
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by arber333 »

Maybe i can chime in some.
I have tried about anything of BMS by now 😁. Well not everything... Johannes probably got me there with his idea of BMS battery heating...

First i tried daisy chain BMS. And it works... up to a point. Its good for low cell count. When it gets up to more than 60S strange things happen. I used 500mA balancing and there would be a standard resonance with balancing, probably becauae of module lag. BMS kept having saturated comms as well.

I then built sensored version only, no balancers. It worked well in Mazda as long as i didnt drain cells too low and feed them too high.

Then i tried a distributed transistored voltahe monitors. Kind of like those chips in power tools. When built and tested they looked good. Signaling was ok. But once inside battery box things hit the fan.

Lately i am testing active balancers. Keep away from inductive version... i like capacitive model, but they are dumb.
I am impressed by supercap JK balancers and i am working on a BMS master to integrate them to CAN bus and add charger control.
Of course they have their own weaknesses. Namely the input fuses can burn easily since they are small 0.01R resistors... but replace them and module will happily work on.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by wovenrovings »

I am in this boat of trying to choose a bms system at the moment. As the modules I have don't have any inbuilt bms boards I think this eliminates the Simp BMS.
I will put what I have found here so far. It took me a ridiculous amount of time just to find these suppliers of BMS systems. Hopefully this info is useful to someone.
I have many questions about them and how they will work with my project including the zombieverter.
1. The wiring and monitoring method - most are pretty clear about this.
2. Communication with other systems and what it can control.
3. Isolation monitoring
4. Is it capable of working with a fast charging system.

These are "off the shelf" systems.
1. Orion bms. Orion have several systems however the one that seems most applicable to EV's, now, is the Orion 2. It pretty well known. The Zero Ev CCS works with it. Has isolation monitoring. Has canbus. Can be one unit doing all cells or master slave setup. Commicates with J1772 AC chargers.
2. Dilithium bms - what I gather is this was created by Ev West. Not entirely sure of its full capabilites yet but it seems it doesn't have isolation monitoring. Has 1 canbus. master - slave setup. There was rumours of a CCS1 add on under development for last 4 years. Communicates with J1772 Ac chargers.
3. Batrium - Can be configured with cell top daisy chain or master slave configuration. Used mostly with Offgrid systems. Can be be monitor up to 230cells. No isolation montitoring. Has canbus and onboard data logging. Quite high balancing currents possible.
4. Rec - Master Slave config. Up to 240 cells. 1 Canbus channel. has precharge and contactor control.
5. Emus - Can monitor huge number of cells. Has just about every possible type of cell monitoring configuration. Can use IVT-S as current monitor or hall effect sensor. Has canbus.
6. Elithium Lithiumate - Monitor 255cells. Master slave with or without cell top monitors. Canbus.
7. Simp - Not sure but believe it only work with battery modules with some sort of bms boards allready installed.

Hope this is useful for the wiki. I can help fill out the wiki once its started and as I learn about bmses.
I would have loved to have found just this list of names 2 weeks ago.
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Re: Help Make a List of BMSs for Beginners

Post by wovenrovings »

Just discovered this webpage that has a quite a large list of BMS's http://liionbms.com/php/bms_options.php
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