Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

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190E
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Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by 190E »

Hello community.

i am from the middle of Germany and new to this board. I am a 24yrs old mechanical engineer and build cars together with a friend of mine, who is an electrical engineer. The reason for joining this board is growing interests for electrifing one of my vehicles.
In my working area i have some tools, a lathe, 2 3D-printers, 2 lifts etc...
I am a typical car guy and have a soft spot for older RWD cars, i own a BMW E30 328i, BMW E36 325TDS and a Mercedes W124 250TD
All vehicles are rolling with more or less modified engines, and output between 220 and 400 hp at the crank.

But now i am after something new and exciting. I am fascinated of the simplicity of the mechanical components in an electrical vehicle, you know, no spark plug, no air fuel ratio to note, and no conversion from linear to rotary motion etc.

So, to get started, yesterday i got a call from a man i dont know, who offered me an W201 190E merc for very small amount of money. I seem to be regionally known to host half-wrecked, old cars and give them a second (and faster) life :D This was the initial spark to get started, and there begin my plannings and questions.

To define the goal:
I want to create a car that is street legally in germany. I already spoke to an TÜV engineer, who is interested to accompany to this project.
I also bought the TÜV-Merkblatt 764
The car would be used in daily driving, but also taken sporadic to small Trackdays(short races like Slalom etc)
So my mate and me defiened some specs we want to reach:

- The car should reach a minimum of 6s/100kmh (or faster, of course)
- The coolant system should be capable of taking some heat, so you can drive some time with high power before something begins to smell..(or the inverter chokes output power)
- We want to reach a 50/50 weight distribution with intelligent placing of the components
- Topspeed is in the first instance not soo necessary, but as we live in germany with our Autobahn, something like 170-200 kmh would be nice


I already red some pages at this forum and was impressed by the amount of knowledge and ethusiasm, which are pooled here and reach unbelievable things. As an amateur, for me with limited knowledge there are only two real options for this car: GS450H Gearbox or Nissan Leaf Motor.
I want to talk about my thoughts of these two options, but i am am newbie, so input or support for this decision is very welcome:

Nissan Leaf Motor+Inverter:
+Capable of at least 220KW (short time)
+Comes with a nice reduction gearset to run directyl to the wheel hubs without differential etc(Saves useless parts and lot of mass)
+You can get used leafs relatively cheap (~5000€ here) and use their battery and all of its components, too
- While looking at the axle, i am confused if the motor with reduciton gear will fit (cutting the cars body, trunk etc is !No! problem), but when cutting something out of the axle and weld something in, Mr. Tüv starts to frown here in Germany
- When puttin the motor in the front and connect it directly with the probshaft, you will most likely be way to long with the reductions gears in the differential
At this point i try to avoid to attach the motor to the conventional gearbox. I know, it would be simple, but i personally dont like it. To much mass, problems and complexity afterwards.

GS450H Gearbox+Inverter:
+ Capable of some serious power (atleast i red it here)
+ 2 speed, which solves the desired highspeed combined with good acceleration
+ Would fit good in place of the actual gearbox, an works nice with the availbe differential gearings( 2.65-4.27 is plenty avaible)
+ I want to run a LSD Diff, this solution would be easier (although there is a NISMO LSD for the leaf you can buy!)
+ No need to modify trunk, rear axle, etc
- Way more expensive. I expect a GS450H build is double the price than a leaf build(with a complete Leaf as a base)? I am mostly afraid of the batteries. Semms that germany is not a good place to source used EV parts
- More mass, but power will compensate it maybe

So, here i am asking for your suggestions what combo would fit to my suits? I literally burn at the moment and would most like to start right now with the project. If the concept is clear, i will make a build thread for sure and hope to contribute something to this board in the future,

Best Regards
Marvin
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by johu »

Hi and welcome,

I must say you are already well prepared. I believe (as in I don't know for sure) the GS450H combo is a good fit for RWD vehicles and if you browse around you can find them cheap, example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatikget ... Sw9Ide8Rqh

Or here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1331

You can then talk to this guy about batteries: https://www.facebook.com/Carel1956/
And you're set.

Yes the Nissan Leaf MOTOR has been reported to crank 220 kW but with a heavily modified inverter -> TÜV frown. With the stock inverter and openinverter drop-in board it outputs maximum 140 kW. Could still be enough for your requirements.

Of course using the Leaf motor and leaving the original transmission in place has the advantage that you can choose between top speed and top accleration.

For TÜV it is advantageous to use a motor/inverter combo that actually belongs together, otherwise they might send you off to prove "Funkentstörung" i.e. half a day in a test house €€.
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by johnfin »

I will be following your discoveries Marvin as I have my eye on a 190E that is coming up for auction soon!
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by arber333 »

For your application I wouldn't go with Leaf motor. At least don't use original gearbox if you want to go over 160km/h. Here motor has over 12000rpm and something can fly out...
You can use Leaf motor with transmission, but I think you may have an automatic...Lots of losses there...

I recommend gs450h and it's inverter. It would be the easiest way.
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by DkubusEV »

Has this project progressed yet? I'm a Mercedes Benz fan in Australia and currently converting an SLK, but I also own 2x 190e and a 300ce-24 and many 126,107 etc. Choosing what Mercedes to convert was difficult but I decided on the gs450h power unit. I bought 2 just in case I wanted to do another Mercedes after I complete the slk.

Looking forward to your updates
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by marcexec »

Have a 190D myself (first car, just kept it), so eagerly following. Have you seen Artur's Jaguar conversion? It makes for a neat package with a shortened shaft:
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Re: Mercedes W201 190E - Agony of choice (Leaf or GS450H)

Post by Ruudi S »

190E wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:50 pm GS450H Gearbox+Inverter:
+ Capable of some serious power (atleast i red it here)
+ Would fit good in place of the actual gearbox, an works nice with the availbe differential gearings( 2.65-4.27 is plenty avaible)
Good to read about Mercedes conversion plans, there aren't that many sadly!

- Are you sure GS450h Gearbox will fit? W201 was not that large car (it was called baby-benz) but that lexus GS was large car where this gearbox came from. There's one guy in this forum who has converted an excellent BMW E39. He is going to do a BMW E30 I think this and your W201 are about the same size cars. He'll be using Lexus 300h gearbox maybe this is smaller?
- I have tried to install Leaf motor and reducer to the rear axle of a W202 that didn't fit either. Maybe E-class cars for example W124 would have wide enough rear axle frame for this drive unit.
- One quite powerful option would be Tesla Small Drive Unit (SDU) and you put it to the rear axle. I understand that this is 200kW capable so should be enough for you. Don't you have somekind of power limits there? Is it really allowed to double the original cars engine power?
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