Project VW Cadd-E, Leaf/Volt/Mercedes + Mk1 VW

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tom91
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by tom91 »

vwbrady wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:08 pm
RetroZero wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:24 am Are the 5kwh due to total weight of the build or budget?
You are planning on using a Leaf setup. Could you post another picture of original gearbox. Trying to see if a Gen2 transaxle could work before purchasing Mk1 cabriolet... Apparently it might have to be turned around due to knocking up against radiator. Thanks
turns out there is a mistake in the listing for the batteries. they are 12S modules but they mentioned you need 6 to reach 350V, which doesn't add up. so it turns out i'll actually be using 8 modules which gets me about 7kWh. or somewhere around 35mi of range (@200Wh/mi), which is good for me.

I'm using the original 4spd VW 020 transaxle, that comes in every FWD 4cyl VW up to ≈1997. I have AL plate coming from 3dhubs for the Leaf motor and the VW transaxle. I should be mocking this up at some point during Q1 2021
Uhmm, not to shit on your parade but you realise right you have to rip these battery modules to shit. I have a ripped apart battery myself, and have seen the info/inside information on the Mercedes units.

There is an intergrated BMS that uses mosfets to switch the battery on and communicates over lin bus. In oder to make them useable you have to remove all of this.



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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

tom91 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:12 pm
Uhmm, not to shit on your parade but you realise right you have to rip these battery modules to shit. I have a ripped apart battery myself, and have seen the info/inside information on the Mercedes units.

There is an intergrated BMS that uses mosfets to switch the battery on and communicates over lin bus. In oder to make them useable you have to remove all of this.

Thanks for your concern. I am completely aware and researched these heavily prior to purchasing. Obviously I am not using the native BMS.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by tom91 »

vwbrady wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:19 pm
tom91 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:12 pm
Uhmm, not to shit on your parade but you realise right you have to rip these battery modules to shit. I have a ripped apart battery myself, and have seen the info/inside information on the Mercedes units.

There is an intergrated BMS that uses mosfets to switch the battery on and communicates over lin bus. In oder to make them useable you have to remove all of this.

Thanks for your concern. I am completely aware and researched these heavily prior to purchasing. Obviously I am not using the native BMS.
Be sure to post some pictures of how you solve it. I believe alot is laser/spot welded.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

tom91 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:21 pm
vwbrady wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:19 pm
Thanks for your concern. I am completely aware and researched these heavily prior to purchasing. Obviously I am not using the native BMS.
Be sure to post some pictures of how you solve it. I believe alot is laser/spot welded.
the base cells are welded but i won't be breaking any of those connections. I'm sure you came across this video already but it gives you a good idea of the internals. But, you know this already since you have one of these torn down.


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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by johu »

High quality German over-engineering :) But once stripped down it looks simple to use
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

johu wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 pm High quality German over-engineering :) But once stripped down it looks simple to use
Thanks, Johu! I like your positivity!

My first concept, without seeing these in person, is to completely bypass the BMS with busbars and then 3d print an adapter in which I can mount headers for HV and BMS leads. I will not be running power brakes or power steering so the 50A continuous output seems like plenty. Adding liquid cooling to these modules will also be really easy if needed.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

My adapter plates arrived from www.3dhubs.com and fit great! As you can see I need to do a little trimming on the transmission side to clear the axle flange.

Why do I have 2 adapter plates you ask? because i have to offset the transmission from the Leaf EM57 due to the inverter overhang at the top. I want to keep the inverter mounted directly on the motor. Spacer size is TBD
Screenshot 2020-10-22 074001.png
Screenshot 2020-10-22 074022.png
Screenshot 2020-10-22 073907.png
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

Adapter Update

The transmission PDF I used to model one of my adapter plates was probably for a RWD VW and so though it looked correct, it was not. Without being able to find any drawings, or CAD online i resorted to making my own. fortunately i have too many 4cyl VW engines sitting around my garage so i was able to trace a dust shield to get my profile.

tracing:
vw020_drw.png
CAD:
VW020_CAD.png
because the bell housing is larger than the Leaf Motor I have to space out the transmission to clear the inverter overhangs on the EM57. for that a few peaces of round stock will do the trick:
LEaf_adpt_assm1.png
After trying 4 different Honda and Suzuki clutch friction discs without luck i finally resorted to Bratitude's spline adapter that uses a Rotex coupler. Now to figure out the trans side of that :?:
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

Battery Update

I received 16 mercedes mild hybrid "48V" L09-1 battery modules from batteryhookup.com and started tearing them down for adaptation. These batteries power a 48V P2 hybrid system in EQ Boost Mercedes but the battery is actually a 12S making it nominal 44V. That's why they're so cheap and why I'm choosing to put 8 in series to get my 96S pack. :)

here are my 16 modules:
batt_pallet.png
The 48/12v DC-DC converter they come with is useless to me as i have no means of getting them functional, nor do i need 16 of them. So if anyone is interested and in the US PNW, they're yours.

Not covered in the previously linked teardown video was the fact that these modules have integrated Peltier or TEC (Thermo Electric Cooling) plates that when provided with 12v actively move thermal energy across them. I have to assume Mercedes used these to cool the cells, but by reversing polarity they can also heat them! So cool!

This means if i decide i need cooling i can easily run coolant to their cooling plates, AND have the option to activate the TEC. Unlikely this will at all be necessary for my use case, though :roll: .

Battery open:
merc_batt_wBMS.png
3d printed shield I thought would be useful:
batt_shield_v4_CAD.png
After cutting out the BMS and making up a couple cables, this battery is very usable!
batt_cbl_rtg.png

Open Issues:

1. My last hurdle with these modules is getting the BMS leads connected. My Malectrics spot welder is unable to get through the tinned copper cell tabs at FULL power.
spot_weld_attempt.png
I have yet to attempt a solder, but we'll see how that goes. The original BMS leads were on an elaborate ribbon and based on the size of the traces there's no way they're going to carry the current the Nissan BMS will demand.

2. I have no means of charging 44V batteries and I feel i should probably capacity test these before throwing them all in a pack together. Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

I got my new plate for the transmission side, fits great.
PXL_20201203_023515998.jpg
next up:
-align the plates and join
-figure out transmission side coupler
-find a means of connecting BMS leads to cells, solder didn't take
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by bexander »

vwbrady wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:32 pm
Open Issues:

1. My last hurdle with these modules is getting the BMS leads connected. My Malectrics spot welder is unable to get through the tinned copper cell tabs at FULL power. spot_weld_attempt.png

I have yet to attempt a solder, but we'll see how that goes. The original BMS leads were on an elaborate ribbon and based on the size of the traces there's no way they're going to carry the current the Nissan BMS will demand.
How do you attempt to do the spot welding? Do you place both electrodes on the tab soldered to the cable?
Can you get to the backside of the electrodes of the battery?
If yes, is it possible to put one electrode on the soldered tab on the cable and then place the other electrode on the battery tab backside?
If no, is the tab soldered to the cable made of copper? If yes, I think all the current goes from one electrode to the soldered tab and then back up to the other electrode and not through to the tab on the cell. Maybe try with a piece of nickel strip soldered to the cable or by by using a Y- or U-shaped copper piece soldered to the cable to create a longer path through the tab forceing some current to go over to the tab on the cell?

EDIT:
What is the maximum current the spot welder outputs when you attemt the welds?
What battery do you use as the power source for the spot welder?
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by mdrobnak »

Perhaps routing via the original BMS might be the answer? What are you planning on using for BMS modules once you get it working the way you want?
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

bexander wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:25 am
vwbrady wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:32 pm
Open Issues:

1. My last hurdle with these modules is getting the BMS leads connected. My Malectrics spot welder is unable to get through the tinned copper cell tabs at FULL power. spot_weld_attempt.png

I have yet to attempt a solder, but we'll see how that goes. The original BMS leads were on an elaborate ribbon and based on the size of the traces there's no way they're going to carry the current the Nissan BMS will demand.
How do you attempt to do the spot welding? Do you place both electrodes on the tab soldered to the cable?
Can you get to the backside of the electrodes of the battery?
If yes, is it possible to put one electrode on the soldered tab on the cable and then place the other electrode on the battery tab backside?
If no, is the tab soldered to the cable made of copper? If yes, I think all the current goes from one electrode to the soldered tab and then back up to the other electrode and not through to the tab on the cell. Maybe try with a piece of nickel strip soldered to the cable or by by using a Y- or U-shaped copper piece soldered to the cable to create a longer path through the tab forceing some current to go over to the tab on the cell?

EDIT:
What is the maximum current the spot welder outputs when you attemt the welds?
What battery do you use as the power source for the spot welder?

So, in half the cell tabs i have access to the back side, but the other half i do not. fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) these batteries have made their way to other hobbyists and one of them used a 200W soldering iron to attach leads. I typically want to avoid applying large amounts of heat like that but it may be the easiest way.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

mdrobnak wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:37 am Perhaps routing via the original BMS might be the answer? What are you planning on using for BMS modules once you get it working the way you want?
I plan to utilize the entire 96S Leaf BMS. I'm hoping that it communicates with the Powertrain Module and permits J1772 charging with the native charger.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

New year update.

Paused on the battery work til i can get a high wattage soldering iron. Plus tearing down 16 battery modules takes up a lot of space - which i do not have.

Worked on the adapter parts some more. 3d printed my "spline adapter shaft" using a .2mm nozzle and it actually fits quite snug and is dimensionally accurate. Used it to align the motor to transmission so i can mark the placement of my spacers and check axle clearance.

Adapter plates:
PXL_20210103_021358607.jpg
first mate:
PXL_20210103_015106826.jpg
adapter in place:
PXL_20210103_013124247.jpg
Axle clearance, of which there is about 2-3mm now:
PXL_20210103_015121002.NIGHT.jpg
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by johu »

Also a nice way to cover the distance.
Do you think spray water could become an issue?
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by Bratitude »

With the easy access to the bolts on both the motor and trans side, getting the natural alignment should be an easy task.

don’t think you’ll fit a rotex assembly in there tho. Which is fine. I’ve done a clamping soild coupling,
5D1D4567-A6A1-4FF8-859A-2E57F76483AF.jpeg
I can post all the cad files if you like
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

Bratitude wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:48 pm With the easy access to the bolts on both the motor and trans side, getting the natural alignment should be an easy task.

don’t think you’ll fit a rotex assembly in there tho. Which is fine. I’ve done a clamping soild coupling, 5D1D4567-A6A1-4FF8-859A-2E57F76483AF.jpeg

I can post all the cad files if you like
Brat, I think i could fit a rotex in there, it's just the problem of sourcing and being willing to pay for one. I do already have one of your adapters though, which is getting replaced by a more basic solution of my own making. My plan was to just have a tube broached with the correct splines on either side for about $200-$300.

I have been 3d printing splines for a mk1 (small spline diameter) vw input shaft and finally got something that fit real well -using a .2mm nozzle:
spline testing samples.jpg
PXL_20210103_011518945.jpg
here shows how it bridges the two shafts:
full_adapter asm.jpg
here is the adapter plate assembly complete with countersunk M12 10.9 hardware installed:
PXL_20210113_015848738.jpg
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

The NEW adapter design will make use of a VW clutch disc, of which i have several lying around.

Because a broach operation needs to have proper chip clearance on the backside, broaching a tube with 2 different size splines was not a very manufacturable option. instead, i'll have the Leaf splines broached and have the opposite side bored to accept a clutch disc center - press fit and welded. here is a section view:
Screenshot 2021-01-23 084315.png
because this part is now somewhat universal, i was thinking of ordering a few at a discount for future Leaf-swap projects. and for anyone else, here is the link to the OnShape Document:

https://cad.onshape.com/documents/37f63 ... 80693685f9

I will add that i have already tried 4 different Honda and Suzuki clutch discs to use on the Leaf side with horrible luck. Just not an easy option for North Americans.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

EV related side note, i've been thoroughly distracted from Rabbit Truck work lately as i wrap my Model Y - in an attempt to protect it's very soft and fragile California paint :|

The grey is subtle in pictures.
Screenshot 2021-01-23 085425.png
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

johu wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:17 pm Also a nice way to cover the distance.
Do you think spray water could become an issue?
Johu, you're right. though the input/output shafts have seals, they're designed for keeping oil in, not water out. If i ended up in the rain, i think it would be ok, but in all honesty i'll make quite the effort to avoid it (hard in the Seattle area, i know). This project is purely for fun, so i certainly won't have to rely on the truck for transportation - this is the same reason im only targeting 35mi of range

I was thinking that I could 3-d print a shield to enclosed the center passthroughs, or temporarily use some silicon tape to wrap around the adapter plate spacers. neither of which i'll probably do on this project. but i do plan on doing more Leaf swaps in the future, and they will highly likely be FWD VWs, so i could be looking to solve this problem eventually.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

well, it's been a while. With all the other car and house projects i have running in parallel this is going to take longer than I'd like.

BUT, I got a test fit done with transaxle attached. The test fit was to check overall height, as well as take measurements for the one engine mount i need.
PXL_20210313_013838064.jpg
PXL_20210313_004759133.jpg
Problem is, it's too tall:
PXL_20210313_004836244.jpg
Here are the options i see:
1. Lower the entire assembly down with custom mounts about 3"
2. Relocate the DC-DC / Charger to under the bed
3. Cut the hood open

I prefer the first option because i want to avoid running too much cable. It is more work, but I believe worth it in the end. Fortunately, the factory oil pan extends about 4" lower than the leaf motor does, so i have the room as long as the axles still reach.
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by mdrobnak »

Sounds like the hood needs a 'power bump' :D

But you're right custom mounts make most sense. Looking good!

-Matt
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by johu »

Wow, you're actually fitting the whole power tower :) We yet have to find a car where this just fits.
As everyone knows I despise Nissans charger for its size but it would still be cool to get it working. Any knowledge on the latter?
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Re: Project VW Cadd-E

Post by vwbrady »

mdrobnak wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:58 pm Sounds like the hood needs a 'power bump' :D

But you're right custom mounts make most sense. Looking good!

-Matt
right!?

Honestly, if the axles don't reach, or interfere with the chassis, this may be the way to go for now.

What im thinking is an even better option, is using the Gen 1 leaf motor + my prius inverter. Much better packaging, with DCDC conversion.

Should I really consider a change that big? I could have an EM61 in my hands tomorrow for $350.
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