Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

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GaryHo
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Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by GaryHo »

First of all, is this subject okay here as the forum seems to be all about EV's?

I run my house off of a home built 8KW 48VDC to 240VAC Inverter that I have built myself. However, I was wondering if anybody has attempted using a Prius Inverter to do this? My first thoughts were to use the MGM2 inverter connected to a Toroid as I use now to step up the SPWM with an 1:8 ratio and possibly going 3 phase with 3 Toroids. Another option I am thinking about is would the DC to DC converter be able to work with 48VDC to step up the battery voltage to a level where no transformer is required to step up the output.

Has anyone tried this, I have searched here but could not find any reference to this.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

I was actually thinking about this the other day... can we use the existing Gen2 Prius control board to just spit out a blind 60hz signal? Can we turn them into just a VFD?

Does it have to be load-matched? (I.E. can't just load up 1 of the 3 phases)

I can think of 2 big uses cases:

1 - Off grid.

2 - Guys who want 3 phase in their shops, when only 120v or 240v split-phase is available.

A friend of mine wants to run some big equipment (lathe, mill, welder, etc). He has an electric forklift, so he could tap those batteries. Or get 20 old car batteries. Just something to allow short-term power buffer, not production use, your duty cycle when milling/turning/welding is like 10% anyway.

Can we tell the Prius to blindly spit out 120vac 60hz, or 240vac 60hz, or 240 3-phase or whatnot?
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by GaryHo »

The Prius Inverter is a VFD already, with the right software you could control a 3 Phase AC motor as that is what it does in a car. VFD's are readily available and have lot's of features such as the main one of variable speed, a standard 3 phase motor will run happily in a range of 50 to 100% of it's intended speed, VFD compatible motors will go up 400%. Also, they have braking both normal and emergency which is nice to have if something goes wrong with the job or the machine. Damien MacGuire has some videos running a 3 phase induction motor off of a Gen 2 Inverter.

Using it as a VFD is really a whole subject on its own and perhaps if you want to explore that it might be better to open a separate topic.

As for load matching each phase needs to have it's own voltage control so 1 phase could be running hard and the other 2 doing nothing and voltage would be equal across all 3 phases. I am not sure if you could run a split phase 120VAC without a transformer, I find that idea strange as we don't use it here in Australia, it is either 240VAC single phase or 415VAC 3 phase. The difference in frequency of 50 and 60hz is no problem.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by NiHaoMike »

I'm working on a PV inverter from a Prius inverter, but Gen3 since I need independent control of the high and low side for the on grid mode.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=419
https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7072

I'll be using a FPGA since I'm going to implement a lot of complex real time control, but for a standalone off grid inverter, a digital power microcontroller should be sufficient.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by GaryHo »

I am only interested in off grid, here and in many countries connecting non approved equipment to the grid can result in very large penalties. There was a case in USA where someone lost their house as a result of it.

With my current setup it is also using grid-tie inverters, they synchronise with the off-grid inverter and any excess power is fed back into the battery.

The Inverter I use now uses a EG8010 IC which does work well, section 6.6 is the basics of what I am using ATM. Also I am working with another Arduino based system that I plan to change to 3 phase.

Does anybody have a circuit diagram for the Gen2 inverter?
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by NiHaoMike »

The laws for DIY electrical work vary by country and even by state. In my case, the device plugs into an existing 240V outlet so it's an appliance, not part of building wiring. And as it's specifically designed to not export power, the export regulations do not apply either. That said, for areas where the laws pertaining to connecting DIY devices to the mains are stricter, a DIY on grid inverter is still possible by designing the inverter to connect via a low voltage transformer.

I would not recommend using Arduino for digital power, stick to bare C where you have better control of timing critical code. The STM32 platform used for the EV inverters should be a great start, other good choices are dsPIC and C2000.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by PriusGuy »

I love your idea and I'll be following this thread. These inverters in the Prius are so powerful and very inexpensive. I'm off-grid and I turned my Prius into a backup generator when I'm not driving. I'm still exploring the best option for using it this way. Now I've got four of these cars and it seems as though they're free all around me.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

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PriusGuy wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:07 am I love your idea and I'll be following this thread. These inverters in the Prius are so powerful and very inexpensive. I'm off-grid and I turned my Prius into a backup generator when I'm not driving. I'm still exploring the best option for using it this way. Now I've got four of these cars and it seems as though they're free all around me.
I saw on youtube somewhere where a guy tried to convert a Prius motor and transaxle into an AC generator but was not successful.

Another possibility is to generator power with the engine running off of a different ECU as the guy I mentioned above to run it like a normal car engine and rectify the AC out to DC for battery charging. Lots of possibilities, as yet I have not started but I plan to try to trace out the circuit diagram of the Inverter. Would be nice to get my hands on a diagram if there is one out there. It may be possible to use the boost converter to step up my 48V battery voltage to allow the inverter to produce 415V 3 phase/240V single phase without a transformer.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by mfox »

That will be awesome if it could be possible to get 3 pahse AC from prius inverter
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

mfox wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:53 pm That will be awesome if it could be possible to get 3 pahse AC from prius inverter
Well you certainly can. It drives 2 different 3 phase motors.

It's just a matter of making the software dumb enough. 60hz and whatever voltage no matter what. Done. Right now it's being used as a speed controller so it's varying the frequency and the voltage to make that kind of thing happen.

It's a bit like turning a coffee table into firewood. It's current form is overly fancy for what's needed. But still someone has to do the work to chop it up.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by GaryHo »

MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:02 am
mfox wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:53 pm That will be awesome if it could be possible to get 3 pahse AC from prius inverter
Well you certainly can. It drives 2 different 3 phase motors.

It's just a matter of making the software dumb enough. 60hz and whatever voltage no matter what. Done. Right now it's being used as a speed controller so it's varying the frequency and the voltage to make that kind of thing happen.

It's a bit like turning a coffee table into firewood. It's current form is overly fancy for what's needed. But still someone has to do the work to chop it up.
It drives 3 different AC motors if you include the Air Conditioner.

I have software "dumb enough" as you put it, if one has excess coffee tables and are cold then why not burn them?
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by mfox »

Sometimes burning coffee tables is cheaper insted buying wood for this
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by MattsAwesomeStuff »

In this analogy, the coffee table is Johannes' code that can drive a vehicle in a sensible manner. And the firewood is making ordinary 120v 60z with no variation or complexity.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by NiHaoMike »

Thing is, there is some use for V/Hz control with single phase AC loads. Granted, the V/Hz ramp up feature is a lot more useful on much smaller inverters, but the power savings turning the output down to 100V/50Hz can be very significant for motor loads.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

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MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:44 am In this analogy, the coffee table is Johannes' code that can drive a vehicle in a sensible manner. And the firewood is making ordinary 120v 60z with no variation or complexity.
I already have code that I am using ATM to drive Inverters that I have built already. One thing I like about the Prius Inverter is it's bullet proof design. It is this aspect that I am wanting most of all. The design I am using at present works very well and will run 240V 50HZ at 8KW continuous and can start 5KW induction motors, this is not much compared to a car but is something a lot of power inverters struggle with.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by NiHaoMike »

Since reducing voltage will actually cause a small increase in power use of most electronic loads, I wonder if the best approach to V/Hz scaling for mixed loads would basically be a MPPT algorithm in reverse - within the bounds of 100V/200V/50Hz and 120V/240V/60Hz, search for the point that results in the least power used.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by mfox »

GaryHo wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:01 am
MattsAwesomeStuff wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:44 am In this analogy, the coffee table is Johannes' code that can drive a vehicle in a sensible manner. And the firewood is making ordinary 120v 60z with no variation or complexity.
I already have code that I am using ATM to drive Inverters that I have built already. One thing I like about the Prius Inverter is it's bullet proof design. It is this aspect that I am wanting most of all. The design I am using at present works very well and will run 240V 50HZ at 8KW continuous and can start 5KW induction motors, this is not much compared to a car but is something a lot of power inverters struggle with.
Is this pure sin wave 240V 50HZ ? N and F ? or can you get N and F ?
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by Kevin Sharpe »

Jack from EVTV is looking for a HV solar inverter/charger... maybe he'd help fund the development?

This is a personal post and I disclaim all responsibility for any loss or damage which any person may suffer from reliance on the information and material in this post or any opinion, conclusion or recommendation in the information and material.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by PriusGuy »

[quote=GaryHo
[/quote]

Any progress with this? Jack died so no help there. Im running a hacked tesla inverter with my 65kwh 515v battery to power my off grid my house. Fun but now I have 400 kwh more batteries to make use of and am more seriously looking at the Prius inverter because there so cheap and plentiful.
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by johu »

Thats a bit impious

Anyway: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1368
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by Jack Bauer »

How about sharing what you have done?
I'm going to need a hacksaw
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by PrecisionAnalytic »

PriusGuy wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:07 am Now I've got four of these cars and it seems as though they're free all around me.
Where are you located? I'd take a free Gen 2 or Gen 3 or later I suppose. I can use one that has everything with it and in a cost effective way, even if looks bad with all her parts functional.

I know around the great lakes, the prices went crazy skyrocketing post COVID for the 1.8L engines. 1.5L engines are still great priced.

Also, do you have any references to your projects and what you've done, i.e. Youtube, forums, website, other social media?

Do share please!
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Re: Off Grid Power Inverter from Gen 2 Prius inverter

Post by PrecisionAnalytic »

GaryHo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:11 am I saw on youtube somewhere where a guy tried to convert a Prius motor and transaxle into an AC generator but was not successful.
Do you have a link by chance saved in your history or can find? I'm curious what the guy was doing and his observations.
GaryHo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:11 am Another possibility is to generator power with the engine running off of a different ECU as the guy I mentioned above to run it like a normal car engine and rectify the AC out to DC for battery charging.
My very limited experience with asynchronous (brushless) motors as generators without an inverter is: profanity... calming... profanity... and then thinking why would I ever use this again? Then I read into and reads like a load is required to act as a resistor on the output or the voltage will spike up really high and that's what fried my Kill-A-Watt meter when I was working on a 1200W 2-stroke engine brushless generator. I made a video on my jafinch78 YT channel to share the experience... as well as how to repair the Kill-A-Watt meter. Basically voltage spikes most likely might require the fuse replaced and current spikes the thermal fuse replaced.
GaryHo wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:11 am Lots of possibilities, as yet I have not started but I plan to try to trace out the circuit diagram of the Inverter. Would be nice to get my hands on a diagram if there is one out there. It may be possible to use the boost converter to step up my 48V battery voltage to allow the inverter to produce 415V 3 phase/240V single phase without a transformer.
I agree a lot of possibilities and is such a shame not exploited... or at least not exploited to my knowledge for the general good of humanity in these price gouging times of pumping and dumping market financial instrument schemes. I am thinking the capabilities for now for not only PV systems where commercial solar panels can be more easily used and found cost effectively... I was thinking for making larger 10KW mains output generators from multiple either single or multi-engine generator 120/240VAC outputs inverting to clean SPWM pure since wave output cost effectively.

Well, why not do the same with the MG's since once that inverter controller design is perfected... or good enough... the erratic nature of the brushless generators can be modeled and understood so no issues for constant voltage output at what seems to be amazing current capabilities way beyond my needs.

I'm was actually thinking the inverter-converter IGBT's alone might be handy for making an offset balance control aluminum welding power supply. So like square wave DCEN to DCEP waveform ratio control. If you're not familiar DCEP cleans the oxidation from the weld area and the DCEN fuses the welds and penetrates better. This is also called AC Balance Control by many... though from what I know is a DCEN and DCEP square wave that isn't even a modified square wave.

I was also thinking a plasma cutter can be made as well using. Not sure why not other than the controller hasn't been designed, tested, refined and made to last.
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